Well folks, another "Friday night Lights"-HS Football Action

CalexPhoto · September 7, 2006

Hello all, first time posting here on a new thread. I've lurked, read and replied, but this is the first thread with pictures from me. Avid Photographer looking to go "Pro" (change in Careers hopefully)soon...
Started in the first Half with ISO400 and I stopped at Halftime at ISO1600 no flash.
#1)

#2)

Closer Crop of #2)

Making a touchdown saving tackle after switching off his receiver(two pictures)

Pass rush...

Looking for the pass...

Hope you guys like it.
Lionel

Rene` · September 8, 2006

Great job!
Great job. I really like teh cropped prints.

CalexPhoto · September 8, 2006

Rene` wrote:

Great job. I really like teh cropped prints.

Thank you, I'm glad you like it. I really appreciate the feedback.

FrankieAng · September 8, 2006

Nice job, LT. I have had some pro sports shooters look at my work and they stress the importance of shooting tight and cropping even tighter. Cropping is not a strong suit for me and I always pay attention to what others are doing with their crops so I can learn. I guess it's all a matter of taste, style and opportunity.

CalexPhoto · September 8, 2006

FrankieAng wrote:

Nice job, LT. I have had some pro sports shooters look at my work and they stress the importance of shooting tight and cropping even tighter. Cropping is not a strong suit for me and I always pay attention to what others are doing with their crops so I can learn. I guess it's all a matter of taste, style and opportunity.

Thanks Frankie, I too have read numerous places that say to crop real tight especially for publication in Newspapers or magazines, etc. I am also learning to shoot tighter instead of Cropping, but I guess it's a new habit that I have to develop when shooting Sports. Glad you like these.

stephiewilliams · September 11, 2006

These are great if they are night shots

What time was the game?

frankieang & calex - Shooting tight is always good, cropping tight is a must for newspapers in my experience...you have to be careful though to leave some room around the action though. Often times when the page is built they ignore your photo size and crop within their design program...leaving a little bit of empty space really helps the designer have more options.

johng · September 11, 2006

Some Suggestions
Lionel,

Not bad for just starting out. A few suggestions on the photos themselves:

First of all it looks like you were shooting down at the action from the stands. You really need to be shooting from the field - preferably from a kneeling position so you're shooting slightly up at the players rather than down. Being on the field will also help with the biggest problem with some these photos: they're not sharp enough.

Specific comments about each photo:
#1 - not very interesting. There's no emotion and no one is really getting thrown around.

#2 - Good idea, but way too much DOF - the players in the background are way too distracting. This is a factor of the lens and your distance to the subject. Part will be corrected by you getting on the field and part by getting a lens capable of 2.8

#3 - From where you shot, the photo came out pretty sharp but it's not sharp enough for this crop. Since there really isn't any action in the shot - the shot becomes the quarterback's face - which needs to be sharp and clear.

#4 - best of the lot - Action and reasonably sharp. The downward angle keeps this from being a better shot.

#5 - What keeps this shot from being better are: a) no faces and b) not a very exciting tackle and c) you're behind the action rather than equal to or in front of it. And, of course, you're looking down
Here's virtually the same situation - but at the moment of impact and looking up rather than down on the players and at least perpendicular to the action - the result is a nice facial expression. The point here is that having a crisp, well focused shot simply isn't enough for sports. It has to be a crisp, well focused shot of the right action from a good vantage point.

#6 - too much noise and not sharp - if you don't already have noise reduction software get some. Here's a sample of an ISO 1600 image run through noise reduction:

#7 - too loosely framed. Since the ball is not in the frame, the quarterback adds nothing to the photo. It's very tough to get the ball in frame with the receiver, so can't fault you for that. But, again, since there's no ball the story is the receiver looking for the ball - which means you need to see his eyes:

Now, it may seem like I'm being very critical here. The photos you've taken are outstanding 'parent from the stands' photos. But, you need to do some things if you hope to start making some money:

1. Get on the field - period.
2. Get a lens suited for football - you need a 2.8 lens with at least 200mm reach - preferably 300mm or 400mm 2.8. Not sure what you're using now - maybe you already have this. You need 2.8 for the shutter speeds and the shallow DOF - you really need 300mm to get tight framing but 200mm will do as long as you don't mind moving constantly with the line of scrimmage.

By the way - what type of pro work are you wanting to do? Freelance for paper, staff paper photographer or selling to parents? Just curious. If you want to make your primary living off sports photography it's extremely difficult. But if you just want to make some extra $$ on the side there are plenty of opportunities to do that.

CalexPhoto · September 11, 2006

johng wrote:

Lionel,

Not bad for just starting out. A few suggestions on the photos themselves:

First of all it looks like you were shooting down at the action from the stands. You really need to be shooting from the field - preferably from a kneeling position so you're shooting slightly up at the players rather than down. Being on the field will also help with the biggest problem with some these photos: they're not sharp enough.

Specific comments about each photo:
#1 - not very interesting. There's no emotion and no one is really getting thrown around.

#2 - Good idea, but way too much DOF - the players in the background are way too distracting. This is a factor of the lens and your distance to the subject. Part will be corrected by you getting on the field and part by getting a lens capable of 2.8

#3 - From where you shot, the photo came out pretty sharp but it's not sharp enough for this crop. Since there really isn't any action in the shot - the shot becomes the quarterback's face - which needs to be sharp and clear.

#4 - best of the lot - Action and reasonably sharp. The downward angle keeps this from being a better shot.

#5 - What keeps this shot from being better are: a) no faces and b) not a very exciting tackle and c) you're behind the action rather than equal to or in front of it. And, of course, you're looking down
Here's virtually the same situation - but at the moment of impact and looking up rather than down on the players and at least perpendicular to the action - the result is a nice facial expression. The point here is that having a crisp, well focused shot simply isn't enough for sports. It has to be a crisp, well focused shot of the right action from a good vantage point.

#6 - too much noise and not sharp - if you don't already have noise reduction software get some. Here's a sample of an ISO 1600 image run through noise reduction:

#7 - too loosely framed. Since the ball is not in the frame, the quarterback adds nothing to the photo. It's very tough to get the ball in frame with the receiver, so can't fault you for that. But, again, since there's no ball the story is the receiver looking for the ball - which means you need to see his eyes:

Now, it may seem like I'm being very critical here. The photos you've taken are outstanding 'parent from the stands' photos. But, you need to do some things if you hope to start making some money:

1. Get on the field - period.
2. Get a lens suited for football - you need a 2.8 lens with at least 200mm reach - preferably 300mm or 400mm 2.8. Not sure what you're using now - maybe you already have this. You need 2.8 for the shutter speeds and the shallow DOF - you really need 300mm to get tight framing but 200mm will do as long as you don't mind moving constantly with the line of scrimmage.

By the way - what type of pro work are you wanting to do? Freelance for paper, staff paper photographer or selling to parents? Just curious. If you want to make your primary living off sports photography it's extremely difficult. But if you just want to make some extra $$ on the side there are plenty of opportunities to do that.

THANKS, Johng! You are right, I was shooting from the stand, about 5 lanes of track away from the sidelines. I do have a 80-200/2.8 APO lens that I used for these shots. I appreciate the comments, they are very helpful and I really appreciate critiques, as they definitely help. "No pain, no gain" I believe.
I do not have a noise reduction software yet, all I have right now is what's available in Photoshop Elements, which isn't much, and have been contemplating Noise Ninja or Neat Image.
I wouldn't mind doing either of the three actually whether freelance or as a staff photographer right now or for parents, but it wouldn't be the primary source of income unless I assume that I'm a staff photographer for the paper. Do you have a preference?
How would one obtain a field pass to get on the field level? Any suggestions on that? I would love to get a 300/2.8 but it's a little out of my reach for now. Thanks again for your comments and suggestions, cheers.
Lionel

luisferfranco · September 11, 2006

johng wrote:

Lionel,

Not bad for just starting out.

bla bla bla

(with all due respect)

John, I *MUST* save this post as one of the best references in sports I have seen. Thank you very much for sharing. I liked Lionel's pics very much, but of course I see them different, his mistakes and my own.

Thank you very much.

If you have the chance I'd love you to comment some of my pics too.

CalexPhoto · September 11, 2006

stephiewilliams wrote:

These are great if they are night shots What time was the game?

frankieang & calex - Shooting tight is always good, cropping tight is a must for newspapers in my experience...you have to be careful though to leave some room around the action though. Often times when the page is built they ignore your photo size and crop within their design program...leaving a little bit of empty space really helps the designer have more options.

Thanks Stephie for the tips. Yes, it was a night game, but I shot mostly in the first half only, and it started at 7:15 or 7:25pm CST, so the light was still pretty good in the first half, but by around halftime I was already at ISO 1600 to still be able to stop action. Since I don't have a noise reduction program yet, and wasn't shooting this for any specific reasons except my own experience and knowledge, I didn't want to take too many pictures at ISO 1600 yet either.
I will try shooting in Manual mode on my next adventure.
Lionel

stephiewilliams · September 11, 2006

Well very impressive for a night game, maybe it just gets darker where I am lol, even with my external flash I am almost always disappointed with my shots. These are quite good. You know high ISO isn't always a bad thing, I will shoot all the way up to 800 if I have to...beyond that just too much noise for my taste. I usually shoot football on A priority as wide open as my lens will go....

shelby_daniel · September 12, 2006

stephiewilliams wrote:

Well very impressive for a night game, maybe it just gets darker where I am lol, even with my external flash I am almost always disappointed with my shots. These are quite good. You know high ISO isn't always a bad thing, I will shoot all the way up to 800 if I have to...beyond that just too much noise for my taste. I usually shoot football on A priority as wide open as my lens will go....

It's the norm here in Mississippi as well. The field I shot last friday night was metering 1/60th @ f2.8 iso3200 on the 40 yard line by halftime. You have no choice but to use flash. I'm not the worlds biggest flash/sports fan, but you gotta do what the situation calls for.

I don't know what setup you are using, but with my MK2, I shoot all the way to 3200iso with no worries. F2.8 is a must on the fields I shoot to get high enough ss's. I shoot raw, then convert to tiff, run noise ninja with the standard MK2 plugin settings, and save as jpegs. I sell prints up to 8.5 x 11 with no problems. The key is getting your exposure close, then using Noise Ninja. From my experience, sharpening is the main thing you need to avoid on high iso files.

For night football, a good rule of thumb around here once it gets dark is to shoot on Manual, f2.8, iso1600, flash on Manual 1/16, shutter speed on 1/400th. check your histogram and adjust from there. I usually bump the iso rather than lower the ss to avoid motion blur as much as possible, but on some fields 1/250th is as fast as I can go even at 3200iso.

New to the forum, just thought I'd lend some of my experience. I am learning as I go, and night football is a challenge to say the least....

An example of iso 3200:
http://shelbydaniel.smugmug.com/photos/94001713-L.jpg

An example of iso 1600:
http://shelbydaniel.smugmug.com/photos/91275152-L.jpg

johng · September 12, 2006

CalexPhoto wrote:

THANKS, Johng! You are right, I was shooting from the stand, about 5 lanes of track away from the sidelines. I do have a 80-200/2.8 APO lens that I used for these shots. I appreciate the comments, they are very helpful and I really appreciate critiques, as they definitely help. "No pain, no gain" I believe.
I do not have a noise reduction software yet, all I have right now is what's available in Photoshop Elements, which isn't much, and have been contemplating Noise Ninja or Neat Image.
I wouldn't mind doing either of the three actually whether freelance or as a staff photographer right now or for parents, but it wouldn't be the primary source of income unless I assume that I'm a staff photographer for the paper. Do you have a preference?
How would one obtain a field pass to get on the field level? Any suggestions on that? I would love to get a 300/2.8 but it's a little out of my reach for now. Thanks again for your comments and suggestions, cheers.
Lionel

I use noiseware professional and can highly recommend it - although the 2 packages you referenced are also highly used. Buy one of the 3.

As for a pass - it really depends on your area. In Ohio there isn't an organization you need to get credentialed through like Colorado apparently has. Ohio has the OHSAA (Ohio High School Athletic Association) but they don't credential folks. Regular season access here is controlled by the host school. In many cases no credentials are checked. A simple call to the athletic director will get you access. When post season rolls around and more photographers are present THEN they start looking at credentials. Here, credentials must be requested by an authorized publication - just because you've had some work published at one time or another doesn't mean a thing. You need a legitimite publication to request your credentials for the field (this is different than a press pass - a press pass is given by the publication but credentials are issued by the facility - two different concepts.). Additionally, each team will get a set number of sideline passes they can distribute to whomever they choose.

So, my point is: every state is probably different. So, your best bet is to contact the Athletic Director of your school. Explain you want to shoot games to provide images to students/family. See if you need credentials or not. While I shoot freelance for a paper I know when I've contacted ADs in the past here that they were all open to me being on the field shooting as long as I abided by certain rules.

I suggest using that approach for a season. After you've got a season under your belt, select your 10 best images and start contacting local papers to discuss freelance work. I strongly suggest starting with weekly type papers. Larger daily publications will likely have experienced pro sports photogs on staff and as freelancers and it can be tough to crack the ranks. Also, you'll want a body of work representing several sports before approaching a daily publication.

As for selling to parents - that's a judgement call on your part. Every place is different and there are a lot of demographics involved in whether a sales business can prosper (typically you need parents obsessed with their childrens sports as well as having a good amount of disposable income). But, I would also suggest getting a season of on-field shooting under your belt before trying that model.

Bottom line - your next step should be to contact the AD and see if he'll let you on his field. If so, get lots of practice. If not, then you need to go to plan B - which will be determined by why the AD won't let you on the field. If it's regulated that takes you down one path. If he just doesn't want you on his field you may have to shoot another high school.

shelby_daniel · September 12, 2006

You have some relaly nice work, John. Kudos.

johng wrote:

So, my point is: every state is probably different. So, your best bet is to contact the Athletic Director of your school. Explain you want to shoot games to provide images to students/family. See if you need credentials or not. While I shoot freelance for a paper I know when I've contacted ADs in the past here that they were all open to me being on the field shooting as long as I abided by certain rules.

As for selling to parents - that's a judgement call on your part. Every place is different and there are a lot of demographics involved in whether a sales business can prosper (typically you need parents obsessed with their childrens sports as well as having a good amount of disposable income). But, I would also suggest getting a season of on-field shooting under your belt before trying that model.

Bottom line - your next step should be to contact the AD and see if he'll let you on his field. If so, get lots of practice. If not, then you need to go to plan B - which will be determined by why the AD won't let you on the field. If it's regulated that takes you down one path. If he just doesn't want you on his field you may have to shoot another high school.

I would also offer the following:

It is also helpful in some instances to offer to give back some of the profit made off the photo sales to the booster club. Thats a sure fire way to make you look better to the coach or AD when you're trying to get a foot in the door..........

System · September 13, 2006

shelby_daniel wrote:

I would also offer the following:

It is also helpful in some instances to offer to give back some of the profit made off the photo sales to the booster club. Thats a sure fire way to make you look better to the coach or AD when you're trying to get a foot in the door..........

Also don't forget yearbook staff a lot of time these guys have no equipment for night shooting .. and would like to get action shot in the yearbook .. but definitely contact the AD..

CalexPhoto · September 13, 2006

Thank you johng, stephiewilliams, shelby daniel, allensphoto and anyone else that I may have missed mentioning here, for the great tips, advice, help and teaching! I really do sincerely appreciate it very much! Have a great day all!
Lionel

stephiewilliams · September 13, 2006

One thing I also might add is that highschoolsports.net is soon going to be allowing photographers to sell photographs from high school sporting events to vistors of the site. It will probably be a month or so before they begin this but would be pretty profitable and easy way to reach the market.

shelbydaniel - Because I shoot for newsprint and our press is awful I have to keep it under ISO 800

Makes things difficult. Thanks for the great advice though. I am shooting again Friday so I will have to try it out. Oh and about giving some of the profit, brilliant. That is the way most sporting event photography companies work. They donate a percentage of the profits to the organization who then grants them access to take the photos and exclusive ability to sell at the event.

johng - Good write up, very well done! As for getting a pass just because you have been published I was just merely mentioning that press passes are granted to freelancers without having to be affiliated with a publication, however you have to show work that you are a "working, published" photographer.

Well folks, another "Friday night Lights"-HS Football Action

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