Some Help and Suggestions

stephiewilliams · September 19, 2006

Hello all

I have been shooting sports for some time. When I compare my shots to others who own a d70 (like me) I am always pleased with my photos. Now being on this sports forum I feel like my shots are chopped liver. I know that this is partially due to the range of equipment being so much better...I own a d70, a Nikkor 18-70mm f3-4.5, a Nikkor 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 and a Sigma EF-500 DG ST. I am looking for way to improve my photos, refine my technique with my exisiting equipment (as I am a broke freelancing photo student hehe.) Rather than just using my entry level equipment as an excuse I wanted to see if anyone could provide me with some good feedback.

My sports shots can be found http://stephaniewilliams.smugmug.com/Sports or if it would be easier I could post some samples from each sport...Perhaps the best way to get this feedback is to post shots throughout the year from each sport as I shoot it?

In general I think I really need to work on my night time football, indoor volleyball and basketball.

johng · September 19, 2006

Stephie,

My experience on this and other forums is you get much better feedback posting specific examples of your work and asking for feedback. The people you most want feedback from don't have time to sift through galleries.

I will say from this post though you've got an equipment challenge when dealing with night time football that is going to be difficult to overcome with specific good shots. So, even if you do everything perfectly as a photographer you're going to need some different gear to get past a certain point (2.8 lens, camera with better high ISO noise performance). So, just as you suggested post a few shots (sport specific) in a thread and ask for C&C.

Also, if your serious about improving - look to other forums as well. Fred Miranda probably has the most experienced sports shooters of any site I've seen but many times the pros there simply won't respond. So, while I've often gotten the best advice from the pros there I'd say 2/3 of the time I don't get anything useful back.

DP Review also has a number of sports shooters as well although they don't have a sports forum (just forums for each camera and general Nikon lens forum).

Just an opinion - but I've learned a lot from having people critique my stuff in online forums - they're a much more critical audience than my customers or my editors (critial is not necessarily bad - I mean to say they have much better eye for where things are wrong and could be improved upon).

gsgary · September 19, 2006

I have only had a DSLR now for just over a year but since coming on here my shots have improved 10 fold just keep taking shots and posting, one thing you could do is wait for action to get as close as possible using your 70-300 at 300mm and totally fill the fame i find it blurs the background more

Back when i started

Now after feed back from D-Grin members

Shot at ISO3200

Antonio Correia · September 19, 2006

Stephie,
I am no pro and my skill of photoshop is short.
But I would like to give my opinion about some of your photos.
Please understand that I don't know how to do a shirt or a pijama but I do know when they are nice, confortable and agreable.
I know a little more of photography than sewing and that's why I dare to criticize for the good and the bead your photos.
sometimes we look and we don't see. This happens to me and to other people ...
Feel free to criticize my photos.

I like these photos because of the action they represent and the movement. But look at the scenario in the back. Not good. Get another angle. On the 3.ed shot I personaly would like to see more field ahead and the hole motorcycle. May be it would be interesting to show the sand in the air...
Easy to criticize !!! If I try I would do worst than this.

There is a cast in the photos, a white one. I dared to treat the last one and the result is at teh bottom of this page.
________

More experience, correction: Experienced people would do far better ...

I don't like the background but the ball is in the scene what is very good.

Nothing to say. May be a little more pop up...:D

the tennis set is very pleasant and well shot.
Look at one of mines and criticize:

Flat hem ?
As Gary said we improve beeing here.

Have I been rude ? Hope not.

DJ-S1 · September 19, 2006

I'm no pro either, but I'll chime in a bit. I definitely think that the most important thing in taking great photographs is the person at the viewfinder. If I had the best Hesselblad, I still wouldn't be a great shooter.

That said, there are situations where the best photographer could not get a good shot because of equipment limitations. Nobody is going to get awesome indoor basketball shots with a point and shoot camera. Period.

Now you have good equipment, and your outdoor, daytime shots are very good. You obviously have talent. And you are frustrated by your attempts at "night time football, indoor volleyball and basketball". Well to me, that's almost entirely due to your equipment. Those conditions require high ISO and wide apertures that you don't have available to you. Don't sweat it, work with what you have and improve on what you can along the way.

In scanning your galleries, the main things I notice are bad backgrounds in some of the shots. These can be blurred with wider apertures, but you don't have those available so focus on changing your perspective slightly. For example, in some of the baseball shots there are cars in the top of the background - just standing on a chair or something would have eliminated the problem. It doesn't take much but it can make a big difference.

My amateur two cents worth...

Steve Cavigliano · September 19, 2006

Stephie,
I like many of your shots

Very nice work

I agree with DJ on some of the backgrounds. That's one of the toughest challenges we face. Getting a good angle on the shot without capturing an ugly background

I really like your golf shots because the BGs are not busy and they even add to the shot. Wider apertures will help blur the BG and better isolate your subjects.

I hope that Karen (winger) stops by. She shoots all kinds of sports and her input would be great to have

I do know that she keeps drumming into me the need for - Faces, Action, the Ball or Puck and Contact. The more of these you incorporate into an image, the more interesting it will be to view (or to own $ :-)

Steve

Charla · September 19, 2006

Stephie,

Reading your post I feel like I could have written the exact same thing. I'm also struggling with the desire to be a better photographer and not leaning on the excuse that I'm limited by my gear, but when I look at the EXIF on shots that I think are better than mine it's tough not to come to that conclusion. I also think my shots are chopped liver compared to everyone else here so I will definitely be following this thread to see what advice is given.

I'm strictly a hobbyist and I admire you for going out and pursuing a career in photography.

Charla

FrankieAng · September 20, 2006

Hi Stephie,

I took a good, close look at many of your gallery shots and have to say that you do very well with your sports action photography. You have caught the action at it's peak in many of the images and faces are visible in many as well. With regard to shooting techinque/style, you are very good. Now, improving on your work will mostly be dependant upon improving the quality of your equipment. The gear that you use is perfectly adequate for the most part, but an increase in frames per second would be a huge improvement. My D2H shoots at 8 fps and I wish it were closer to 10. Another improvement would be faster glass for those sports that are played in less than ideal ambient lighting.

Now....I realize that you already knew about the pro gear benefits as compared to consumer gear limitations and I understand that money is always tight...but there will always be a huge difference between a Corvette and a Ferrari, even for the most experienced driver. Your photography is excellant, Stephie, and will only get better with time and improvements in gear.

stephiewilliams · September 20, 2006

john - Your right, peers in the forums do tend to give more, and better feedback than my editors. I took your advice and signed up over at fredmiranda as well...couldn't hurt!

gsgary - Thank you for your suggestion, this is actually very feesable...I shoot from the sideline and it is important that I be able to move if played are coming at me. I would not feel compfortable up on a chair but I can definitely wait for the action to be able to fill at 300mm...

antonio - Thankyou, you definitely have not offended. As always I struggle with the photojournalist aspect of my photography. Those motocross photos were shot from the top of a huge dirt hill about 50 ft up...which I had to climb gear in hand...not easy. I need to get better at viewing what is in the background of my photos prior to selecting a location. As for my baseball photos again I am kind of limited as there are literally marked spots for the photographers to stand, we aren't allowed out of our box hehe. Maybe I could blur the background in post processing?

DJ - Do you think some blurring in post would be beneficial...kind of fake it till you make it? The chair idea probably won't work for me personally but I do see what you are getting at...sounds like it takes some creativity when selecting location and angle.

steve - Thanks for you comments

Charla - It is so hard, you get tired of hearing you need better gear esp. when you are broke lol...but your right...it wouldnt be fair for a point and shoot owner to get the same results as me, and it is not fair for me to get the same results as those with the expensive gear...I just have to work with what I have and save my pennies hehe.

frank - Your right, I think I am starting to see the need to start saving again lol...

DJ-S1 · September 20, 2006

stephiewilliams wrote:

Do you think some blurring in post would be beneficial...kind of fake it till you make it?

It can work, but usually doesn't. First of all, masking tends to be a total pain. And the effect you are trying to duplicate gets more blurred with distance, so it's not a constant "blur" - hard to replicate. I've seen it done well, but it takes time.

xtnomad · September 20, 2006

stephiewilliams wrote:

Hello all I have been shooting sports for some time. When I compare my shots to others who own a d70 (like me) I am always pleased with my photos. Now being on this sports forum I feel like my shots are chopped liver. I know that this is partially due to the range of equipment being so much better...I own a d70, a Nikkor 18-70mm f3-4.5, a Nikkor 70-300mm f4.5-5.6 and a Sigma EF-500 DG ST. I am looking for way to improve my photos, refine my technique with my exisiting equipment (as I am a broke freelancing photo student hehe.) Rather than just using my entry level equipment as an excuse I wanted to see if anyone could provide me with some good feedback.

My sports shots can be found http://stephaniewilliams.smugmug.com/Sports or if it would be easier I could post some samples from each sport...Perhaps the best way to get this feedback is to post shots throughout the year from each sport as I shoot it?

In general I think I really need to work on my night time football, indoor volleyball and basketball.

I do not think you should sell youself short on your equiptment. I have a D-50 ( a close cousin ) and think the D70 can do the shots you are looking for. I do agree with what has been said. But would like to add, go to some of the pratice of the teams you would like to shot and the conditions that you would be shotting in. Do some experamenting on ISO and Speed and apature settings to see what would get you in the ball park to say. Then try some angles in this pratice setting with out the preasure of a dead line and see what you like. All so post some of the team and let the players view them and give you some feed back or let them vote on the most popular feature for the gallery. Just my two cents worth. Rod.

stephiewilliams · September 21, 2006

xtnomad wrote:

I do not think you should sell youself short on your equiptment. I have a D-50 ( a close cousin ) and think the D70 can do the shots you are looking for. I do agree with what has been said. But would like to add, go to some of the pratice of the teams you would like to shot and the conditions that you would be shotting in. Do some experamenting on ISO and Speed and apature settings to see what would get you in the ball park to say. Then try some angles in this pratice setting with out the preasure of a dead line and see what you like. All so post some of the team and let the players view them and give you some feed back or let them vote on the most popular feature for the gallery. Just my two cents worth. Rod.

I am happy with my d70...right up until I see someones shots at 3200 ISO then see my own at 1600...and I want to cry j/k...I think if I had better glass I would still be able to produce better results using my D70. Its not camera envy per say hehe. Your right on the practice. Thats what I usually do, I will attend JV games in my spare time to practice my shooting for the Varsity game the next night...it really helps. Haha let the players pick eh? Well since I shoot for the paper they will pick the ones of them lol. J/k...You bring up a good point though, my galleries are strictly action. I guess because unless it is for a feature the paper doesn't really pick up my images of the team, emotions, celebrations, defeats...maybe a way I could bring my photography to a new level would be to try my hand at encompassing the whole game and not just a face and a ball times however many photos the paper needed that day...

johng · September 21, 2006

DJ-S1 wrote:

It can work, but usually doesn't. First of all, masking tends to be a total pain. And the effect you are trying to duplicate gets more blurred with distance, so it's not a constant "blur" - hard to replicate. I've seen it done well, but it takes time.

I totally agree. It's extremely difficult to not miss spots and to get the affect correct - especially when there are multiple background objects in different focal planes. I'd say 9 out of 10 times there's a noticable mistake or the image just looks WRONG (and by wrong, it's usually that with a true shallow DOF where the subject is really in focus and backgroun isn't the subjejct POPS - when people do it in PP, you have this incredibly blurred background but the subject lacks that pop). In any case, it's usually not worth the effort to try IMO.

johng · September 21, 2006

stephiewilliams wrote:

You bring up a good point though, my galleries are strictly action. I guess because unless it is for a feature the paper doesn't really pick up my images of the team, emotions, celebrations, defeats...maybe a way I could bring my photography to a new level would be to try my hand at encompassing the whole game and not just a face and a ball times however many photos the paper needed that day...

I would agree. Make sure you get the shots your assignment requires. But, then branch out to other types of shots. You may decide to start selling your work to players/ parents some day. I've found many times the types of shots they buy are not the same types the paper wants.

For instance, if you have a shot of the receiver catching the ball and a shot 4 seconds later of the receiver getting blasted - the blast is more interesting to the paper because it's better action but an athlete doesn't want a shot of himself getting shallacked. And, there are lots of interesting things happening that don't have the ball in the frame. Try following linemen for a quarter - trying to get a good block, or a good swim move around a blocker. Not the type of shot the paper cares about but an interesting challenge for a photog and the exact type of shot that's of interest of the parent or athlete.

But - you have to take care of business first. And, if you do ever decide to sell to parents discuss with the paper. While my paper is fine with me doing both (so long as I don't sell the images they post) yours may feel differently. In either case, I would recommend challenging yourself to take shots of things other than the ball handler.

mercphoto · September 21, 2006

I looked at your three motocross photos and I have a couple comments if you don't mind. The first one has a cropped boot and you can't see the rear of the bike at all. The background is distracting (the parked cars). Second one is a bad angle for the shot. Too much of the bike obscured. Again those cars in the background.

Third one I like quite a bit. Nice profile shot, nice background, a bit of dirt flying.

I've found the MX crowd buys photos that me, as a photographer, don't find appealing. And they won't buy the photos that me, as a photographer, do seem appealing (such as tight crops, interesting angles, extremely blurred backgrounds). If there was one thing I could point to it would be two things. One is jump shots. Two is environment. MX is an environmental sport. By that I don't mean they are tree huggers, I mean the sport is conducted in a specific "environment". The photos should help reflect where they were. If they can recognize not only themself, but where they were riding, all the better. So backgrounds can be busy, but only if busy in the right way, and don't blur them too much. Timing towers, grandstands, or anything about the locale that is unique to that track make for good backgrounds. And while I love the look of a profile panning shot with a slow shutter, they just don't see to be popular with the crowd. Stick to 1/640 or so. Find them at a spot with a leg out for balance, or grabbing the brake, or kicking dirt up. These little details are important.

Seefutlung · September 21, 2006

S-

Two things to help:

1) Be your own worst (best) critic. Start by eliminating all the shots on your site which don't grab you ... get rid of shots which have imperfections (i.e. too much background in focus ... not quite totally sharp ... et cetera).

All that matters is the image (what you did to get the shot doesn't matter). And if the snap doesn't grab you, if the shot doesn't get in your face and say "LOOK AT ME!" ... then dump it ... you can do better ... you will do better.

2) Shoot for perfection

3) Keep shooting for perfection

Okay four things ..

4) Shoot again and again ... and shoot for perfection. Look at what didn't work ... look at what almost worked, make notes and improve. In this business there is always room for improvement ... new challanges ... better images.

Good Luck,
Gary

PS- Look at other's work, old timers before digital and auto-everything, post digital ... award winners, SI, newspapers ... all ... every time you pass a news stand you need to stop and browse and soak it all in. If a shot grabs you ... if you find a shot which you wish you took ... then try to emulate that shot ... put yourself in the "Shooter's" shoes ... try his/her angle ... try his/her thoughts ... and once you get thatshot ... then go one step beyond and see what you get. But most of all ... just shoot ... and when you do shoot ... think about perfection.
G

Captn14 · September 21, 2006

Steph -your shots are great. I strive to keep up with your stuff. I have learned alot from people just like you...This is a great thread with some good suggestions.

donek · September 21, 2006

Stephie,

You've made some comments on your equipment and limitations in budget. So far I've only shot two Volleyball games, but have pulled out my 50mm f1.4 for both. I do have a lot of expensive glass as well, but the 50mm is my cheapest and easiest to get good results without a flash. At $350, I wouldn't consider it expense. a good friend whos a very experienced photographer keeps telling to go and shoot for a month without taking that 50mm off the camera. He says that will do more for my ability to compose shots than anything. I think my 50mm lense is virtually invaluable.

I haven't looked through all your galleries yet, but I did notice your volleyball shots seem to be taken from the stands. I believe I read in another post that you have a press card. Get down on the court. I try to talk to the refs before the game to let them know who I'm shooting for and ask if they have anywhere they consider off limits (I don't have a press card, but they don't seem to care). They tend to be very nice if you approach them and ask for their help. I wound up spending almost an entire match under the ref's platform shooting with my fish eye and 50mm and the ref never complained once. I think you can improve your results with a small investment and getting closer to some of the action.

I'm definitely no pro, but I'll keep shooting and shooting until the possibility of getting it wrong is negligible.

stephiewilliams · September 22, 2006

johng - I could see how the dof is not a constant blur and doing this in post would not achieve the same effect

You know in the past I had put together packages for parents and it seems like they will buy anything their kid is in...I do have to be careful doing that however. The paper I shoot for does not care as long as like you said I am not selling the shots they have picked up but the Colorado High School Activities Association gets real pissy about using their pass for private business...

mercphoto - Thanks for the critique on those. They were taken at a hill climb, no real track riding no jumps just up a huge hill that was about a 45 degree angle or steeper...Had to climb to the top of the dirt gear in hand so was no picky about background or would have had to climb down then back up again (and I barely made it up the first time rofl) Your right though, I should have thought about the background prior to climbing...I gotta work on that!

Seefutlung - thanks for the great post! I was already thinking of weeding through my gallery but you have given me the inspiration to tackle it. Your right why do I need 300 so so images, rather than just 5 amazing ones. Thanks

captn - Thank you for the compliment. I am trying to fine tune, progress...I don't want to become comfortable...want to keep learning.

donek - I am thinking a 50mm 1.4 is in the cards for me, especially because I do wedding work as well. You know I do have a press pass and I have tried to shoot from the courtside but my flash is awful. With the diffuser on it is useless with the diffuser off it blows them out. I am saving for a lightsphere for it which should help but the stands is the only thing I have been able to master

Charla · September 23, 2006

mercphoto wrote:

I've found the MX crowd buys photos that me, as a photographer, don't find appealing. And they won't buy the photos that me, as a photographer, do seem appealing (such as tight crops, interesting angles, extremely blurred backgrounds). If there was one thing I could point to it would be two things. One is jump shots. Two is environment. MX is an environmental sport. By that I don't mean they are tree huggers, I mean the sport is conducted in a specific "environment". The photos should help reflect where they were. If they can recognize not only themself, but where they were riding, all the better. So backgrounds can be busy, but only if busy in the right way, and don't blur them too much. Timing towers, grandstands, or anything about the locale that is unique to that track make for good backgrounds. And while I love the look of a profile panning shot with a slow shutter, they just don't see to be popular with the crowd. Stick to 1/640 or so. Find them at a spot with a leg out for balance, or grabbing the brake, or kicking dirt up. These little details are important.

I shoot my husband when he is racing MX and when we sit down to look at the shots at the end of the day he and I never agree on which are the best! He always likes the shots that have plenty of track reference so he knows where he was and what he was doing in that shot. He also won't like a shot even if it's technically pretty good if it shows him with poor form on the bike. Elbows down = Bad !

I know MX isn't really your main focus but it sure is fun to shoot. There are tons of races all along the front range, all year long even. From reading a few of your posts I'm guessing you are in the Colorado Springs area. SRAC (www.srac.org) hosts a lot of races in CS during the summer and a lot of tracks will put on their own winter race series. So there is plenty of opportunity to practice.

donek · September 24, 2006

stephiewilliams wrote:

donek - I am thinking a 50mm 1.4 is in the cards for me, especially because I do wedding work as well. You know I do have a press pass and I have tried to shoot from the courtside but my flash is awful. With the diffuser on it is useless with the diffuser off it blows them out. I am saving for a lightsphere for it which should help but the stands is the only thing I have been able to master

I've yet to shoot with a flash at a game. I always shoot in manual at 1/320 to 1/500 open all the way and set my ISO to obtain a reasonable looking histogram. I think at f1.4 I've been below ISO 800. F 2.8 usually puts me close to 1600. I've shot a little lower and then pushed the exposure in Capture. I've been looking at the newspaper a bit to see what some of the pro shooters are doing. I don't see much indication that many pros are using a flash. My biggest problem is probably that I never played team sports in school and have never realy attended a pro game for the purpose of watching photographers. I don't have anyone to emulate, I have just been able to look at others work and use what I see to figure out how they got the result they did.

What flash are you using? I'd try making some adjustments there. You should have the ability to back the power off on the flash. My SB 800 can go -3 stops and I think the on board flash on my D200 can go -2 stops. Check your manual. If you can't do that, try putting a piece of tissue paper in front of it. It might work (I've never tried it, but you never know)

If you shoot raw, I think Nikon Capture provides a lot more control over the your primary processing than photoshop. It has great noise reduction built in as well.

stephiewilliams · September 26, 2006

Charla - thanks for the tip, you are right I am right outside of Colorado Springs! MotoX looks like it would be a blast to shoot.

Sean - your right most pros don't use flash...they have strobes mounted to the ceilings and bleachers...Alas I am poor as is the paper I shoot for. I am using a Sigma Ef-500 DG ST which unfortunately has only iTTL, Min Power and Max power...no onflash control for exposure. I can sort of regulate it with the aperture if needed. It does have a diffuser built in but almost renders the flash useless. I will try the tissue paper though...I am actually shooting VB again tonight so I will let you know how it goes...

Some Help and Suggestions

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