Value of my photographs

Creativesifu

:dunno I recently starting shooting football games. I have shot 8 so far. The last one was a bowl game. As usual I passed out my cards, but this time somebody contacted me (Div II. Conference Office) and wants to buy my shots.

I took over 400 shots at the game, what is the fair market value for my work. I like taking photos, but I really don't have any experience in this matter.

They want to publish them on their website. I would like to get the exposure, without getting ripped off. This would be my first paying client. Any suggestions? :deal

Andy

pricing photography

Creativesifu wrote:

I recently starting shooting football games. I have shot 8 so far. The last one was a bowl game. As usual I passed out my cards, but this time somebody contacted me (Div II. Conference Office) and wants to buy my shots.

I took over 400 shots at the game, what is the fair market value for my work. I like taking photos, but I really don't have any experience in this matter.

They want to publish them on their website. I would like to get the exposure, without getting ripped off. This would be my first paying client. Any suggestions?

some very good resources here

wxwax

Fascinating link, Andy. I was going to mention only one of their criteria: whatever the market will bear.

Creativesifu

Regardless of skill level of photographer.
Supplemental Info. I am shooting Div II football. Budgets may be limited. I was shocked that they called me there were plenty (10-20) professionals at the game. I'm guessing they worked for newspapers and the schools. I didn't even get issued a press pass (despite filling out paperwork in advance), I had to sneak/network my way onto the field. The game was televised on ESPN II

Would anybody mind looking at the photos? email me at junkmailsogk@charter.net & I will provide you a link to my ofoto page.

By your opinions how many good photos do I have by percentage or number. I deliver pizza by day and I have no photography training. I just purchased a used digital rebel from KEH (no manual) Thanksgiving. Hope to take class in January. What you have provided is more than I think I am workth. I would be happy with $200-300, but some say go for $500-750. Anything over $180 would cover my actual expenses.

Oh yeah, can I sell (license) the same lot of photos to both conferences?

ginger_55

HELP, a good thing, though...selling prints.....
I can't see that this belongs in the Hall of Wisdom, but I try not to cover someone's recent thread. And this goes along with another thread here re the value of photographs.

I posted some ballet photos, Christmas ones, the one in the shadows challenge, etc. I posted them on FredMiranda's site. I just got a response asking if they are available for print.

I am frozen solid. Right now all my photos are at cost as a Christmas thing for my family and friend. I had not been selling any, so I made the photos available at cost til the first of the year.

I am not only frozen on raising the prices and how much........I guess I could muddle on through that. My prices have been kind of low IMO anyway, but it all helps towards renewing the site without pain.

However, this selling of prints is kind of a whole new and different world for me. I know that tomorrow, today, is Christmas.

After that settles, when someone has some time could we discuss what is involved in really setting up a site from which to sell prints. I know Andy does that.

I cannot tell you how frozen I am. I doubt I will have to answer her til tomorrow or so. She can't expect me to be up in the middle of the night. But this is something I have wanted to do, and it seems there would be more to it than just putting a price on all the photos in a gallery. For one, my site goes from family to dgrin to my pleasures, dogs, just ...........

HELP

I think others might benefit, too. My son is a web designer. $50.00 an hour I think. But he just had a new baby, and is swamped, sick, etc. Has a day job with an architectural firm. I will talk to him, too. but HELP, please.

ginger

This is the note that was left:


Re: Pictures of Christmas
[font=Geneva, Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]beautiful. do you have these available for print? my daughter would love these.

____________________________[/font]

Creativesifu

Merry Christmas
Went to Some different sites to get pricing information on prints.

Nba.com
Professional photographers thru the NBA website have established these prices for game photos. Not sure who gets profit.
8x10= 14.95
16x20= 29.95

Ofoto.com
4x6= .29
5x7= .99
8x10= 3.99
16x20= 17.99
20x30= 22.99

This service would provide no profit to you but, you could post the photos, and let them print what they want. I do that for players and cheerleaders who ask me for photos. No hassle for you at Christmas. (No work)

Or you can find out what photos they want, and print them yourself at home on a high quality inkjet. (too much work)

Option 4 burn'em a cd and charge $15+ depending on the number of images. (Little work)

Aaron Wilson

what would copyright be?
If you were to shoot a pro game like the 49ers or raiders or so on... would you be able to sell those pictures are are they copy righted until you have a signature from that player or coach or cheerleader? As if you shoot for a school, the school give you the right to shoot the game for year book or so on?

Creativesifu

Followup the conference balked at my $500 asking price for the 400 photographs, so I offered them $125 per photo, they balked again. Said they had somebodyelse who was cheaper and they would send my cd's back. Following your advice I saw some websites that charge up to $600 a day or 250-500 per photograph. I laughed at that because they called me!So I know they are full of ....

I feel good for asking for the money though. I worked my two cheeks off at that game. I could have bought me some new glass (Lenses) & a flash with that money. I made a spreadsheet contract which I can use in the future. So I am a little better prepared for next time.

Oh well!

bham

Aaron Wilson wrote:

If you were to shoot a pro game like the 49ers or raiders or so on... would you be able to sell those pictures are are they copy righted until you have a signature from that player or coach or cheerleader? As if you shoot for a school, the school give you the right to shoot the game for year book or so on?

You own the copyright on any photo you shoot (I believe it is life + 50yrs, something like that, photography as a business books). From my understanding there was a recent court ruling involving Tiger Woods and someone selling photos of him. Tiger lost. One of the important things to come out of the case was the picture was taken at a "public event" a golf tournament. So you could sell the picture of the player, coach, cheerleader as long as it was a public event.

If you were doing a work for hire, such as for a newspaper they "own" the copyright, since you are doing work for them, this is usually the case except were amended by contractual agreement. The guy shooting for SI and using all SI equipment. Basically the photos become property of SI. You are hired by College A to shoot their sporting events, and they then use those photos in brochures, etc. Those photos copyright belong to the school.

Hope this helps

wxwax

bham, with regard to ownership of the images in a work-for-hire situation... my outfit makes sure the shooters sign an agreement. It's not a clear-cut area, from what I understand.

winger

bham wrote:

You own the copyright on any photo you shoot (I believe it is life + 50yrs, something like that, photography as a business books). From my understanding there was a recent court ruling involving Tiger Woods and someone selling photos of him. Tiger lost. One of the important things to come out of the case was the picture was taken at a "public event" a golf tournament. So you could sell the picture of the player, coach, cheerleader as long as it was a public event.

If you were doing a work for hire, such as for a newspaper they "own" the copyright, since you are doing work for them, this is usually the case except were amended by contractual agreement. The guy shooting for SI and using all SI equipment. Basically the photos become property of SI. You are hired by College A to shoot their sporting events, and they then use those photos in brochures, etc. Those photos copyright belong to the school.

Hope this helps

not necessairly it depends on how the agreement/ contract is set up. I shoot for a college and i retain all the rights to my photos but they can use them for any promotional items they want. If they want to make money off of them or sell them we renegoiate based on what it is (like we are working on something for selling my photos right of the athletics web page which would be HUGE exposure for me)

bham

winger wrote:

not necessairly it depends on how the agreement/ contract is set up. I shoot for a college and i retain all the rights to my photos but they can use them for any promotional items they want. If they want to make money off of them or sell them we renegoiate based on what it is (like we are working on something for selling my photos right of the athletics web page which would be HUGE exposure for me)

Yes each case is what is negotiated by both of the parties. But from my knowledge most work for hire the employer wants the rights to the photos, for unlimited use. But every case is different. I was trying to give an example where he would not own the rights to the pictures, maybe I wasn't clear.

Well I think he understands the general idea now. If more detail questions, research on the net or library, or ask here.

DoctorIt

I was going to start a new thread on this, but I think it will add well to the content of this thread.

Last fall, I shot a mountain bike race here at UMass (for my own fun - raced and ran the cyling team at UMass for years, now I'm too slow to race, but still love going to races). After the fact, a reporter from the local paper contacted me about an article she had been asked to write for a magazine about our club. She had used a photo of mine in her paper before. that was great exposure - she couldn't pay me for it, but i got a nice big credit. BUT, in this magazine article that just came out, I got no credit. It's not really her fault, she had asked them to credit me, but they didn't. The photo was submitted by me - I emailed it to them saying "please include this photo with said article by said person". I didn't make any further official agreements with the magazine.

So do I have an argument? Or is it a lost cause? Just looking for credit, something I can stick in my portfolio.

wxwax

DoctorIt wrote:

I was going to start a new thread on this, but I think it will add well to the content of this thread.

Last fall, I shot a mountain bike race here at UMass (for my own fun - raced and ran the cyling team at UMass for years, now I'm too slow to race, but still love going to races). After the fact, a reporter from the local paper contacted me about an article she had been asked to write for a magazine about our club. She had used a photo of mine in her paper before. that was great exposure - she couldn't pay me for it, but i got a nice big credit. BUT, in this magazine article that just came out, I got no credit. It's not really her fault, she had asked them to credit me, but they didn't. The photo was submitted by me - I emailed it to them saying "please include this photo with said article by said person". I didn't make any further official agreements with the magazine.

So do I have an argument? Or is it a lost cause? Just looking for credit, something I can stick in my portfolio.

Interesting. I suspect your e-mail can be construed as giving them limited rights to use your photo. They might lose in a suit, but you're not likely to take it that far and they know it.

Given that the article's already been printed, what kind of credit do you now want? If you can figure out something practical, it doesn't hurt to make your case, to say that you gave permission on the understanding that the magazine would give you credit, based on the writer's word, and that she was acting as an agent of the publication.

But I'd say it's a lesson learned. Put your conditions in writing when you submit work. Either they agree or they cannot use the photo. It's your property.

Angelo

I may be too late to be of help but for future, consider checking out a commercial licensing site such as www.gettyone.com or www.eyewire.com

There you can get plenty of insight to the cost of images for various types of uses, both licensed and royalty free.

Erik Olsen

How much to charge
I was approached many times by various artists, and asked for permission to use my photographs for reference to create a painting.

What does a photographer charge for that?

Shay Stephens

Of course what you charge is up to you ultimately. But some standard fees are $150 - $250. Or another option is to charge 75% of your normal fee.

Some considerations on price:
1) The photo will be used for reference and the resulting artwork will not render the photo as recognizable in the artwork.
2) The photo will be rendered as recognizable within the artwork.
3) If used in advertising then typically the usage fee is based on regular advertising rates.

Erik Olsen wrote:

I was approached many times by various artists, and asked for permission to use my photographs for reference to create a painting.

What does a photographer charge for that?

Andy

Shay Stephens wrote:

Of course what you charge is up to you ultimately. But some standard fees are $150 - $250. Or another option is to charge 75% of your normal fee.

Some considerations on price:
1) The photo will be used for reference and the resulting artwork will not render the photo as recognizable in the artwork.
2) The photo will be rendered as recognizable within the artwork.
3) If used in advertising then typically the usage fee is based on regular advertising rates.

thanks for answering the call, shay

i also think that maybe a contingency is in order: charge 75% of normal fee, and then get a % of the take if the artwork is sold. maybe 15% if the artwork is in the $500 range, perhaps 10% if it's in the multi-thousand range. finally, you should ask or find out if the artwork could be sold and / or reproduced, say for advertising purposes, you'd want a piece of that. you can either negotiate this up front, or you can enforce a negoiation later by virtue of the image license you grant for the initial use. imagine the painting ending up as an absolut vodka ad, run in every magazine in the world......

points to ponder, eh?

ian408

Sounds like you need a contract lawyer

I say that jokingly but wonder how you'd go about covering the bases.
So, a trip to www.findlaw.com produced this list.

Good luck.

Ian

52Caddy

Hey! My Wife works there!
Part of Thomson publishing, the huge legal book publishers.

FindLaw

Here's a shot from San Diego!

ian408

52Caddy wrote:

Hey! My Wife works there!

Tell her thanks! Then give her a big hug and a kiss.

Afterwards, you can tell her how nice it is to have a well
thought out (and searchable) legal website.

Ian

52Caddy

You're not being facetious, are you? She doesn't like the new designed front page at all. It is pretty good though.

ian408

52Caddy wrote:

You're not being facetious, are you? She doesn't like the new designed front page at all. It is pretty good though.

Not at all. It works for me.

Ian

wxwax

I've merged two similar threads into one very useful thread about pricing your work.

And here's one additional link provided by a dgrinner.

http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm

David Hartcorn

Hi-
Learned a lot last year about selling photgraphs.

1. I took a panoramic of the flooding in Annapolis MD after Hurricane Isabel.
I hung it in a coffee shop, put a price tag of $45 on it It flew off the shelves, so I immediatley raised the price to $70. Why $70? Because it's what i would pay for it. Well, that price turned out to be the sweet spot, and I sold 875 of them in 9 months. About half those sales were wholesale, as I walked it around town, and got 5 dealers to sell them. For dealers, I would charge $35 as they need to double their price or they won't buy it. I gave them more favorable picing ( $29.75) if they bought 20 at a time. I also instituted strict price controls, and would cut off a dealer for discounting.

I had it printed by an offset press, which greatly reduced my costbasis per print.I also invested in advertising it, as I figured the more peple that saw it, the more people that would buy it. This picture put me on the map as a photographer in Annapolis.

2. I started shooting high school football as a lark...and it turned into something. Football is much harder to shoot then it looks especially at night games with failry poor lighting. So,, instead of shooting lots of action shots, I sort of documented a lot of the other stuff... players faces, line of scrimmage etc. I showed them at the team baquet and the parents went nuts! I sold then as a matted print in a plastic sleeve for the following:
5x7 w/8x10 print $18
8x10 print w 11-14 mat $ 20
10x15 print w 16x20 mat $27

I sold about $1,300 of these .I gave the coach about 10 pictures for free. Next year, he wants me to document the season, and i'llprint up a large coffee table book from www.mypublisher.com, and sell them for $150, plus I will set up a lightbox so players and parents can view indiviual pictures that may not be in the book, and order prints from me, which I will deliver at the banquet.

The parents liked these so much , that now the lacrosse team wants the same treatment!

Bottom line, price your stuff at the level you would pay for it, and create your own market.

David Hartcorn

sorry, the previous reply went to the wrong thread

Aaron Wilson

richard glad you posted tot he wrong page... great link! and you asweard some of my ?ans! lol

LiquidOps

Another price question...

ok... so here's what i'm dealing with. I've read through all I could and find that everything deals with advertising and sports and such... My question is this...

What about wall prints. I mean... What are the guidelines for determining how much to charge for a print that is going to hang on someone's wall?

8x10?

bigger?

I'm struggling at what prices to set for these. Below are a couple examples of what i'm talking about. Please advise...







Thanks,

Steven

LiquidOps

I could really use some guidance here...

or atleast tell me if i'm :deadhorse

wxwax

Why not go through smugmug galleries set up for sales of the kind you're talking about, and see what they charge?

Ann McRae

This is a coool link, Sid. It has given me some guidance here.

ann

wxwax wrote:

I've merged two similar threads into one very useful thread about pricing your work.

And here's one additional link provided by a dgrinner.

http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm