Color issues - from a color idiot...

photogmomma

Okay, I got a new color calibrator, the Optix XR, and finally calibrated my monitor.... And now I'm getting the weirdest problems. I think.... Since I'm so new at this, I need some serious help and was wondering if anyone could help me or point me to a thread/link that would explain what I'm doing wrong!!!

Here are the steps I took and the results:

• Calibrated my monitor using the Optix XR. Didn't notice major differences, but who am I! LOL! Call this profile "Andi's color"
• Edited file in Lightroom (exact same results with Photoshop and Photoshope Elements organizer using export.)
• After making all edits and being VERY happy with the color, I exported from Lightroom (or Elements Organizer) and the photo looks VERY different. Reds are very bright, skin tones are off, etc. Colorspace exported to is AdobeRGB (1998).

Although I mention exporting from Lightroom, i get the same results no matter what i export from. What am I doing wrong? How do I get what I see on my screen exported so I can upload it to SM and have it look good?

Thanks!

(No, I haven't printed anything from SM since getting my monitor calibrated....)

Shay Stephens

What happens when you export to sRGB?

photogmomma

Shay Stephens wrote:

What happens when you export to sRGB?

Same thing.... I was just about to post this after I read some stuff on the help for SmugMug. The colors are still way too saturated and false. *sigh*

I even tried going back to my old colorspace on my monitor and did it. And still the same results.

Thanks.

SteveM

photogmomma wrote:

Same thing.... I was just about to post this after I read some stuff on the help for SmugMug. The colors are still way too saturated and false. *sigh*

I even tried going back to my old colorspace on my monitor and did it. And still the same results.

Thanks.

After you export, what'r you using to view these oversaturated and off colors? I may be way off, but there are a few viewers out there that either do not, or have to be TOLD to read colorspace information or they'll look all jacked up.

DudeX

I need to know a few things, do you have a Mac or PC?

When you calibrated the monitor, did you follow the recommendation to calibrate to D65 (for CRTs) , 2.2 gamma?

Are you calibrating an LCD or a CRT?

In the Photoshop applications, what's your default RGB colorspace?

How are you saving the files for web/non color managed use?

photogmomma

I am SO sorry I haven't responded earlier.... It's been a rough couple of days. ;-)

Anyway, I finally figured out the problem! Silly Adobe... and silly me. I went into Photoshop CS and changed my Color Settings so I was working with Adobe RGB and now when I export, I get the expected results - in ALL Adobe packages! (Which, while handy, is annoying since I didn't expect to have to change PSCS for Lightroom or PSE to work correctly so I didn't think to look there!)

But it still begs the point that I don't understand what's really going on. I *think* I do, but not really. I understand how working in Adobe RGB in PS will allow me to see what I will get in RGB as exported. And I understand that this is what prints best through SmugMug according to their help.

But what I don't understand is why you'd use a different colorspace and then export it to RGB and why it's not the expected results. I would expect it to interpolate and give you the same look in a different colorspace.

Also, why would I use a different colorspace in PS? Is it that different labs require different ones? Or is it for printing on your own printer? I just don't understand.

While I'm very pleased I got it to work the way I needed it to, I'm still completely confused about a lot of it. And I want to understand! Anyone that can point me to a book/web site or just has time to explain, I'd be MOST appreciative!!

Thanks!

(Oh, and to answer your questions, DudeX:

• I am on a PC
• I have an LCD
• Used 2.2 gamma (default)
• My default colorspace was my new calibration, now it's Adobe RGB. Is this correct?
• To save the files, I was using Lightroom and using Export and selecting Adobe RGB during export so that I could SEE what I was going to get on upload. Or at least relatively close.
• And I was using Windows Explorer to view and it's pretty similar to Windows Explorer and FF when I look at SmugMug. (There may be minor differences, but not the HUGE problems I was facing.)

Thanks!)

photogmomma

I thought I'd post an example so you could SEE that I'm just cracked in the head!

Before with my colorspace set wrong:


The color I was trying to GET. As you can see, far less saturated. It's not my final color (I'm still playing), but it's not as red and it's more subtle than the above color! (You can mainly see it in her skin tones. Yes, this is a "her"! !)


Another example - look at the different qualities of red on his shirt and the highlights/shadows of her hair:


As a note, when these were uploaded to SmugMug, they looked almost identical (close enough) to the images in Windows Explorer.... And from what i understand, what you see is what you get when you order photos and your monitor is calibrated correctly....

Thanks!

DudeX

This is a quick and dirty guide to color management.

It's good that you calibrated for a 2.2 gamma, and hopefully a native white point for LCD (only expensive LCD monitors can let you select a different white point). Most people generally recommend a white point matching the color of daylight specified as D65 (6500 Kelvins, a unit of temperature, in this case measuring the emissions of a black body radiator, but let's not get too concerned with science stuff.)

When you calibrate a monitor, you bring your monitor to a standard so that when you open an image with a specific colorspace, it will look right for your setup, and across different setups.

When you are working with photos in Photoshop or Lightroom, you will want to work in the colorspace of Adobe RGB. A colorspace is a mathematical description describing how big is the color gamut (the range of colors a person can see). Adobe RGB is a pretty large colorspace that covers the gamut of a lot of printers, but it's so big that only expensive monitors can display the possible range of colors that describes AdobeRGB. But if you can't see all the colors, why work in that space?

It has to do with keeping as much information as possible in a picture. Our eyes can see a whole range of colors, but very few display devices and printers can capture that range of colors that can hit our eye. So a large colorspace like AdobeRGB tries to keep the those colors we can see in the file so if we print it, it may show up on a large color gamut printer.

On Windows, very few Microsoft programs support color managment, which is a program that can read ICC profiles, like Photoshop. Surprisingly, Windows Image and Fax Viewer supports ICC profiles. But it depends on how you save the file.

Sometime ago, Microsoft and HP and a few other companies came up with a standard called sRGB. This colorspace is suppose to describe an HDTV with certain physical characteristics, and it has a certain color gamut. However, the color gamut of sRGB is pretty small and sometimes smaller than what a consumer color inkjet is capable of. Typically it's a tiny bit bigger than most LCDs and CRTs.

Windows uses sRGB for the default colorspace, so images will look a bit desaturated if you save them from AdobeRGB. Internet Explorer, Firefox, and Opera do not support ICC profiles, so they may make your AdobeRGB image bad.

This is what you have to do to keep the appearance of Adobe RGB on the web, or any non color managed application.

I have Photoshop CS2, so I will give you instructions based on that. I know CS is different in this regard, so I will try my best to cover that.
You have a nice image in Photoshop, and you want to show it off to your friends on your website. The best thing to do is go to (CS2) Edit->Convert to Profile->sRGB (it will have a whole bunch of numbers as this is the technical standard index number) This will preserve the color appearance while changine the actual RGB numbers to match the sRGB space. In CS, I think the profile options are under Image->Mode->Color Settings.

Then you can save it as a JPEG with or without the profile it doesn't matter. However if you want to be nice, include the profile so that the image looks consistent for other people who have Photoshop or any ICC aware application.

If you don't convert the color profile, only ICC aware applications will have the same colors that you see. Non ICC aware applications will see a desaturated image, essentially an sRGB image. On older Macs with a 1.8 gamma, a PC image will appear darker.

So, I hope all this rambling makes some sense and is of some help. The images you posted below show no difference in appearence becasue my web browser doesn't support ICC profiles.

On a Mac with Safari, it might show a difference.