Newcomer to Smugmug want help and suggestions please

SteveLajoie · October 7, 2006

I am having a few issues with my new account and I apologize for not
being the sharpest pencil in the pack in advance.

A bit of background: I have run a website from home for a couple of
years putting up low resolution 72dpi 640x480 proofs that people can
log in and view http://photos.guernseyonline.com. It became quite
popular with Motor racing people because of my shots of their
cars/antics so introduced a basic shopping cart (not there at this
time as I removed it). This worked fine but became a chore as I
manually had to upload the master (full quality) images to the
developers, receive the packages and manually re-post them to the end
user for very little gain as I am only doing this as a hobby and want
to cover my costs. So for some time I have been looking for a site to
accomplish this and I have looked at most and they all fall down on
one reason or another. Then I came across SmugMug FANTASTIC
everything I dreapt of, well nearly. I have tried useing the site for
a couple of (long) days now and I cant get it to do quite what I want
and I need some help please.

Before I go onto my specific questions, I have tried your help, it is
marvelous, well written in simple english with examples, could not be
better BUT, there is so much, I am now suffering information overload
and in particular resolutions v dimensions. For the last couple of
years I have been bumbling along, Doing a photo shoot (I shoot a lot
of frames at each event) Editing (read correcting my mistakes) my
snaps in Photoshop (CS2) croping to 8in x 12in and saving as jpg 12 at
300dpi into a masters folder giving me 3/7mp files. I then batch
reduce these to 640x480 72dpi and add a frame with foto info and
copyright then add them to my website.

Now, in an ideal world I would now simply upload the masters to you,
you watermark and protect them, people see them and with a bit of luck
buy a few at the prices I set. The biggest problem is bandwidth. I do
have a 250kb Leased line (leased in that it it is totally dedicated
and not shared by contention with other users). But still it would
take a lifetime to upload the images. One example, the gallery I have
currently on SM is '2006-08-28 Motors, Hillclimb' if I uploaded all
595 images in all their glory this would be 2.5gb so you can
understand the problem.

I then studied your resolution help and I really started to get myself
in a pickle then because I was sidetracked into monitor resolution and
ICC profiles. I use sRGB in my Camera (Canon 30D) and in Photoshop but
calibrating the monitor became a days job (and still not right). I do
have the new 'Pantone Hewy' it is terrible, it turns my screen a
horrible dank shade of puse, this cant be right, so that got binned.
However your pointer to the 'i2e' bits of software was marvelous, I
have since purchased the Photoshop plug in version, simple excellent.

Now using assumptive powers I took an unedited image from my camera,
let the 'i2e' do its trick and then balanced my monitor so it looked
correct to me and it does look better. My monitor has an sRGB setting
but this is dark as the night!!.

OK, having been sidetracked, with my monitor having a slightly greener
hew than it has always had (but my pictures look right)(to me) back to
the resolution. Next experiment, OK, lets use this delayed
development facility, I set it to 7 days on the basis that I will
upload the masters for prints required and as soon as I have done this
I can click a button to send them to the printers in advance of the 7
days (Can you confirm this is the case, or does the order have to wait
the full term of 7 days) as and when needed. OK, all went well.

I next logged out a) to confirm my custom pricing is working and b) I
was going to place and order as a customer to receive myself to
evaluate the printing service and deliver. I put some images in the the
basket. I am only offering limited options to avoid cropping and that
is 4x6 and 8x12 as this is the aspect my camera works in and I edit
to. Also, some of my buyers by the digital master for their own use,
so that is enabled and I am going to see if any of your giftware can
be sold a team raceware. First picture I want an 8x12 woh, hold up no
option for 8x12. after again referring to the help I discovered that
because my proof copy on the site is under 800px the option is not
offered. While looking through the help, which this time took me off
onto another tangent, I ended up in the forums where I discovered the
issue with the cropping not being switch off-able and I think this is a
must have, I don't want people cropping my images but more importantly
that the 7 day proofing/replacing does not apply to digital
downloads, and this is important to me quite a few people have bough
my images for production of team brochures and things and want the
digital ---

So, this completely rules out the uploading of small low res
proofs on the retouch/replace principle 72dpi 640x480 proofs
and all looked good, for a while.

So, I am back to square 1

Heeellllpppp - What shall I do? Any suggestions and pointers please

Thank you all ....

Andy · October 7, 2006

Hi Steve,

Double checking if you got my email from the help desk on Oct 5th:

Andy wrote:

1. COLOR
I think you should give Huey a try again, I use it every day in my professional work - and it's quite good. You should also get your monitor back to factory default before you calibrate. BTW, montitors can lie, but Photoshop's eyedropper won't fib, so send me a link or two to photos you deem to "look right" on your monitor and I'll be happy to let you know how you're doing

2. WORKFLOW
I recommend using your original size files, and compressing them at photoshop 7 - which will give you reasonable file sizes, about 1/2 gig for the batch you describe below. Then, at replace time upon order, be sure to upload the same file size again, only this time, use photoshop 10 for compression. Adobe Bridge is fantastic for this type of workflow, and if you've not read the book "Real World Camera RAW" by Bruce Fraser, I highly recommend it - fantastic on Bridge workflow.

3. PROOF DELAY
Yes, you must upload the file size for the biggest print you wish to sell. See this link: http://www.smugmug.com/help/proof-retouch-replace
and also my coomments on workflow above. Digital sales are instant, and not subject to proof delay - we've found that folks purchasing DDs are the sort to want it immediately.

I hope this is helpful -- please write back if we can help more!

pat.kane · October 8, 2006

Steve, welcome to dGrin and to smugmug.

SteveLajoie wrote:

... Editing (read correcting my mistakes) my snaps in Photoshop (CS2) croping to 8in x 12in and saving as jpg 12 at 300dpi into a masters folder giving me 3/7mp files.

This is one area that you could change to make your life easier.

Why not just upload straight from the camera and use the proof feature so that you only spend your time on the images that sell? I don't follow this advice myself, but many event photographers do exactly this.

If you crop, do so only to get the right aspect ratio. Do not resize and do not save as jpg 12 (use 10 instead). There are many posts on dGrin explaining these two issues (EZ Prints can up-rez and will likely do a better job and 10 is more than good enough).

Are you saving the originals somewhere? The problem with cropped images is that you might be getting rid of some dead space that would be needed for use in brochures (one of the uses you stated).

SteveLajoie wrote:

...Now, in an ideal world I would now simply upload the masters to you, you watermark and protect them... The biggest problem is bandwidth.

BY ALL MEANS, upload the master. Follow the advice above and your file sizes will be much more reasonable.

SteveLajoie wrote:

...I don't want people cropping my images

I can understand this for fine art; however, you're talking about event photography. Why not let the customers have the final say in what they want printed? Giving up the "need" for this control would also allow the customers the ability to order different size prints (go ahead and turn them all on for a while to get an idea what your customers really want).

Good luck,
Pat

SteveLajoie · October 10, 2006

Andy wrote:

Hi Steve,

Double checking if you got my email from the help desk on Oct 5th:

Hi Andy, thank you for the reply, no I did not receive the eMail responce to my support question how strange.

1) The Huey; Well reson for the delay in responce is that I tried it again. Set my monitor to factory settings went through the process and yuk the monitor looked absolutly horrible. washed out, yellow and pretty dire really. Luckily I had written down my settings this time so was able to restore (what I deem to be) normal service.

1b) OK, so my monitor is a 22" CRT a couple of years olde (Mitsi Diamond Plus 220) and could be worn out as I have to have bright and contrast to max and RGB all on 75% to get my opinion of right. However I have a brandnew(ish, 2 months) Philips Brilliance 200w flat screen alongside now this is pretty swish (but I dont consider dotty flat screens up to editing piccies yet so I rarely use it) I installed the Huey on this and ran through the set up - much the same results not quite as washed out but pretty crap really. Unless of corse it is my eye's!!!

Can you look at my gallery http://stevelajoie.smugmug.com/gallery/1988493/1/101441118 these pictures, albeit happy snaps look pretty well balanced to me are they OK for you?

2&3) Thanks for that, I am not going to get the Digital download and delay/re-touche working together. So, I am trying croping at native 72dpi and saving at PS10 and uploading. Could you please confirm that this will produce good results (resolution wise, I know you can't vouch for crap photograohy, grin) when sent to the developers?

Many thanks for the responce, much appreciated

Regards Steve Lajoie

Andy · October 10, 2006

SteveLajoie wrote:

Hi Andy, thank you for the reply, no I did not receive the eMail responce to my support question how strange.

Steve, please check your spam filter settings and be sure to allow mail from us. I responded immediately to your email

Andy · October 10, 2006

SteveLajoie wrote:

as I have to have bright and contrast to max and RGB all on 75% to get my opinion of right.

Herein lies one of the biggest problems. Monitors get brighter and brighter, but prints are always the same. Shots on screen are backlit, shots on print are using reflected light. A big difference.

Andy · October 10, 2006

SteveLajoie wrote:

Can you look at my gallery http://stevelajoie.smugmug.com/gallery/1988493/1/101441118 these pictures, albeit happy snaps look pretty well balanced to me are they OK for you?

The shots in that gallery look fine.

2&3) Thanks for that, I am not going to get the Digital download and delay/re-touche working together. So, I am trying croping at native 72dpi and saving at PS10 and uploading. Could you please confirm that this will produce good results (resolution wise, I know you can't vouch for crap photograohy, grin) when sent to the developers?

Many thanks for the responce, much appreciated

Regards Steve Lajoie

There's some confusion here. If you are selling prints, you must upload files we can print from. Ignore DPI - upload as many of the original pixels as possible. If you *must* resize, here's our minimum resolution charge - files under a given resolution, means that size is not able to be sold:
http://www.smugmug.com/help/print-quality#minprintres

SteveLajoie · October 10, 2006

RE: Steve, welcome to dGrin and to smugmug

pat.kane wrote:

Steve, welcome to dGrin and to smugmug.
Why not just upload straight from the camera and use the proof feature so that you only spend your time on the images that sell? I don't follow this advice myself, but many event photographers do exactly this.
Ah and there is the rub, I am not an 'old generation film' photographer I have only got into the hobby a couple of years ago (true newby) and used digital. As such I cheat!!! I shoot wide and get the picture I want later in fact I have become more of an expert in Photoshop than photograpy correcting my many screw ups (he he). Seriously, I only learnt the word frameing from the dGrin forums recently. I do pay atention to speeds, apatures ISO's and stuff like that but I shoot a lot wider than traditional photographers because I can.

My favorite subject is the motor racing and to me to be able to crop the piccie into frame later gets me a much more satisfying and (in my opinion) more dynamic result 'cause these damm cars and bikes won't stop and pose for me to frame them up out on the shoot, the drivers insidt on friving very fast! (Likewise with the air display I shot thi weekend, damm planes would nto stay still - But you get where I am coming from.

The pictures I have been lucky enough to sell are all the Motor racing guys and gals, all they want is a good piccie of their steed in action so I only offer two sizes of print anyway 6x4 and 12x8 so I crop to this ratio.
If you crop, do so only to get the right aspect ratio. Do not resize and do not save as jpg 12 (use 10 instead). There are many posts on dGrin explaining these two issues (EZ Prints can up-rez and will likely do a better job and 10 is more than good enough).
Thank you, yes I have taken this onboard and apply this method now.
Are you saving the originals somewhere? The problem with cropped images is that you might be getting rid of some dead space that would be needed for use in brochures (one of the uses you stated).
Yes, I archive out all my originals to CD and Portable HD for safety. That is a very interesting point about brochures, I had not thought of that, thank you.
I can understand this for fine art; however, you're talking about event photography. Why not let the customers have the final say in what they want printed? Giving up the "need" for this control would also allow the customers the ability to order different size prints (go ahead and turn them all on for a while to get an idea what your customers really want).

I am a long way from that level of photography yet, lots more to learn before getting into the arty side of things. Its a big learning curve and I am enjoying the journye.

Many thanks for the responce
Regards
Steve Lajoie

SteveLajoie · October 10, 2006

Andy wrote:

Steve, please check your spam filter settings and be sure to allow mail from us. I responded immediately to your email

I did exactly that when I saw your post, nothing as my spam filer does retain the spam for me to review before deleting in case new people contact me and the filter grabs it, so it is very strange

SteveLajoie · October 10, 2006

Andy wrote:

The shots in that gallery look fine.
There's some confusion here. If you are selling prints, you must upload files we can print from. Ignore DPI - upload as many of the original pixels as possible. If you *must* resize, here's our minimum resolution charge - files under a given resolution, means that size is not able to be sold:
http://www.smugmug.com/help/print-quality#minprintres

Hmmmm, yes I am getting really confused here. Originally I used to crop 12in x 8in 300dpi setting in PShop and save 12. Now I am still cropping aspect 12in x 8in but leaving the DPI blank. This results in my image declaring itself as a 72dpi in file info, and now saving 10 before uploading.

Some of my photos are shot very long, even on a 300mm lens and I crop in to get the frame I want out of the shot. Now though if I do this leaving the dpi field blank I am not going to have enough pixels to produce a 12x8 whereas before useing the 300dpi it did not matter, the shots developed fine.

Andy · October 10, 2006

SteveLajoie wrote:

Hmmmm, yes I am getting really confused here. Originally I used to crop 12in x 8in 300dpi setting in PShop and save 12. Now I am still cropping aspect 12in x 8in but leaving the DPI blank. This results in my image declaring itself as a 72dpi in file info, and now saving 10 before uploading.

Some of my photos are shot very long, even on a 300mm lens and I crop in to get the frame I want out of the shot. Now though if I do this leaving the dpi field blank I am not going to have enough pixels to produce a 12x8 whereas before useing the 300dpi it did not matter, the shots developed fine.

300dpi is OK, did not mean to confuse you.

pat.kane · October 10, 2006

SteveLajoie wrote:

Now I am still cropping aspect 12in x 8in but leaving the DPI blank.

Steve, your first post says you're using CS2. If you select the Crop Tool (C), you are presented with several boxes that can be filled in: Width, Height and Resolution.

Set width to 12in and height to 8in. Leave the Resolution box EMPTY. Photoshop CS2 will crop the image and adjust the resolution so that the "size" shows as 12x8 inch. CS2 will NOT add or subtract pixels except for what was outside of the crop borders.

As soon as you put something into the Resolution box, you're telling CS2 to resize the image, which might add or subtract pixels. You need to avoid doing this as a routine part of your workflow.

Why? Because it makes no sense to throw away pixels you might need and Photoshop isn't your best option for adding pixels that weren't there to begin with. Your best option for adding pixels is to shoot tighter. 2nd best for most people is to let the printer's engine do it. Beyond this, everything becomes more complicated.

Good luck.

pat.kane · October 11, 2006

SteveLajoie wrote:

As such I cheat!!!

SteveLajoie wrote:

I do pay atention to speeds, apatures ISO's and stuff like that but I shoot a lot wider than traditional photographers because I can.

I understand what you're saying, but you need to challenge yourself to try to "crop" as you shoot. As you gain more experience, you will be able to shoot much tighter. It's a skill I'm still working on myself, but I'm getting there.

This way, you're not throwing away pixels to start with and from what I've read in the posts above, it sounds like you're having to up-rez to get those lost pixels back. In reality, you're not getting anything back, you're just letting Photoshop guess on what to put back. I'm not trying to be critical--like I said, I'm trying to improve myself. I just want to be sure you understand what is really happening. I don't know what skill level you're at, so I don't want to assume anything.

You might want to read the Sports forum at FredMiranda.com to both check out some great sports photography as well as to get better ideas on how to shoot tight.

Regards,
Pat

Newcomer to Smugmug want help and suggestions please

Comments