EZprints soft proof profile question

redcrown

My calibrated system produces prints on my Epson 2200 that very closely match prints from two custom labs I have used for years. But the few Smugmug/EZprints "True Color" samples I've ordered show significant differences. I'm thinking that the difference appears to be related to the "rendering intent".

I soft proof using profiles from EZprints and my other labs. The other labs give instructions to use "Relative Colormetric" and "Black Point Compensation" while leaving the other options unchecked. EZprints web site makes no mention of rendering intent or black point compensation, but sample dialogs on Smugmug show use of Perceptual intent and no Black Point compensation.

When I soft proof using the EZprints profile I see very little change under Relative Colormetric intent, but significant change under Perceptual intent. Black Point Compensation makes no difference. The same is true with printing on my Espon 2200 using the ImagePrint RIP. Relative Colormetric intent closely matches the calibrated monitor image, Perceptual intent does not.

So I'm confused. Which rendering intent should be used when soft proofing with the EZprints profile? If the answer is "Perceptual", why is that, when "Relative Colormetric" appears to be more common and more accurate?

My other labs use Fuji Frontier machines. What does EZPrints use? Does that make a difference?

ivar

redcrown wrote:

My calibrated system produces prints on my Epson 2200 that very closely match prints from two custom labs I have used for years. But the few Smugmug/EZprints "True Color" samples I've ordered show significant differences. I'm thinking that the difference appears to be related to the "rendering intent".

I soft proof using profiles from EZprints and my other labs. The other labs give instructions to use "Relative Colormetric" and "Black Point Compensation" while leaving the other options unchecked. EZprints web site makes no mention of rendering intent or black point compensation, but sample dialogs on Smugmug show use of Perceptual intent and no Black Point compensation.

When I soft proof using the EZprints profile I see very little change under Relative Colormetric intent, but significant change under Perceptual intent. Black Point Compensation makes no difference. The same is true with printing on my Espon 2200 using the ImagePrint RIP. Relative Colormetric intent closely matches the calibrated monitor image, Perceptual intent does not.

So I'm confused. Which rendering intent should be used when soft proofing with the EZprints profile? If the answer is "Perceptual", why is that, when "Relative Colormetric" appears to be more common and more accurate?

My other labs use Fuji Frontier machines. What does EZPrints use? Does that make a difference?

Hi Kelly,

All very good questions, and I have no idea as to the answers

Andy is out of town for a few days, and has intermittent access to the internet, but I'm sure he'll anser this when he sees it

Baldy

Hi Kelly,

Ouch, I'm sorry to hear your prints from ez prints aren't matching your monitor. To answer your last question first, they do use Fuji Frontiers for the size prints you ordered.

The tougher question is when to use relative versus perceptual. Unfortunately, the short answer is it depends on the shot, the paper, and the design of the icc profile... Here are some references to explain why:


From Digital Outback.
From dgrin (see post #8 especially)
From Cambridge.

Unfortunately, we have found from long experience that with soft-proofing, comparing a photo lit from behind by a monitor that has one color of light versus one lit from the front with another, is tough and gives a lot of great photographers fits. Here's why.

However!

We've also found that the real test of truth is pretty simple: it's the Photoshop eyedropper tool, which displays your color values as they really are without your eyes playing tricks between print and monitor, or different images working better with relative versus perceptual, etc.

I looked at the prints you ordered via true color (great shots) and the Photoshop eyedropper tool is reporting colors that fall outside of the range of skin tones found in nature. I made a new private gallery for you in your portraits section with one of the shots you printed. If you use the guide in this help section I think you'll find that the adult hands and the left side of the baby's face have very high values of both yellow and cyan, which combined add a greenish cast in those areas. The first image in that gallery is unadjusted, the second is adjusted to bring cyan and yellow down. I'm happy to fire off a free print if you like.

Truth be told, I personally cringe when I see people use the true color option. It accounts for 9 of 10 returns and it's why so few commercial labs and printers really offer it. Andy and I were on the phone with a great pro lab the other day and they said they have to adjust many prints that the customer perceives will be unadjusted, or they would have too many returns.

I hope this helps!

All the best,
Chris

redcrown

Baldy, thank you very much for the extraordinary effort. The Smugmug team never ceases to amaze me with their level of support.

I'm a pixel peeping techno freak, so I had read most of the links you offered, and lot more, on color management and skin tones. Yet there is always more to learn.

I appreciate your comments on True Color vs. Auto Color, and I understand the source of your experience. I would guess 90% of customers do not know much about color management, and for them Auto Color is an improvement. But I sometimes push color outside of the un-standard standards, and I don't want them pushed back. I also shoot a lot of Asian portraits and I have had trouble with other labs' auto correcting them to caucasian tones.

In my original post I was not clear on the differences I see between the Smugmug/EZprint results compared to my prints at home and other labs. The differences I see are not so much in color rendition as in tone, contrast, and sharpness. The Smugmug/EZprint results from my one small test batch appear darker, flatter, and less sharp.

So I definitely need to do some more test prints with Smugmug/EZprints, incuding some auto color Asians.

marieboyer

Wow, this is a fantastic thread; thanks for asking the question. My impression from Baldy's detailed answer is that even those with calibrated monitors will generally be better off if we do not use the "true color" option. Am I reading this correctly?

Are there color management settings designed for the color corrected option? "Perceptual" versus any others?

Thanks so much!

Andy

redcrown wrote:

So I definitely need to do some more test prints with Smugmug/EZprints, incuding some auto color Asians.

Hi Kelly, we'd like to do these for you - please share a gallery link with me, with a few test samples in it. And before I order them for you, I'll review it. You can send them to my ATTN: Andy at help@smugmug.com

redcrown

Thanks for the offer Andy. I do part time senior portrait work for foreign exchange students (wide range of skin tones). Will have a lot of samples to choose from in a few weeks. When the time comes, I'll send orders to my regular lab and dupe some at Smugmug, making sure the files are identical.

You will probably hear from me then.

Andy

redcrown wrote:

Thanks for the offer Andy. I do part time senior portrait work for foreign exchange students (wide range of skin tones). Will have a lot of samples to choose from in a few weeks. When the time comes, I'll send orders to my regular lab and dupe some at Smugmug, making sure the files are identical.

You will probably hear from me then.

I look forward to it!