Online music services

DJ-S1

Help out a dummy here. My 10yo son now has an MP3/video player - Creative Zev V Plus 2GB - and now he's bugging me to download songs. I have no experience in this area.

What do you consider the best online music site and why?

DoctorIt

iTunes, cuz it's easy, fast, huuuge selection (at least I've never been disappointed). I think prices per song/album are pretty much the same across the board. However, I don't like Napster and any others that require a subscription. iTunes is come and go/buy as you please.

also, when you finally get a real mp3 player (i.e. iPod) the integration is so easy and seamless, you'll wonder how you'd use anything else.

that being said, I don't have any experience with any other music players and iTunes. my guess would be that you don't lose too much in terms of transferring songs back and forth.

DJ-S1

I figured iTunes would probably end up being the choice but since I have no clue what all is out there, I thought I'd ask. Thanks, Doc.

Now as to the not-so-subtle slam of my first-born child's electronic device: it's a pretty sweet thing, plays videos, photos, songs and has a built-in FM tuner - I think it was around $130-ish? I'm not positive but I don't think there's a iPod that does all that for that price. It even lets me set the max volume allowed with a password, which I thought was really nice (although my son doesn't think so). It's just not white. :cool

marlinspike

I thought itunes deals in .m4p's that regular mp3 players won't play. I know there's a way to convert them, but there's got to be a better solution (or maybe itunes changed this?).

dragon300zx

marlinspike wrote:

I thought itunes deals in .m4p's that regular mp3 players won't play. I know there's a way to convert them, but there's got to be a better solution (or maybe itunes changed this?).

nope not that i know of. Itunes may play mp3 files but the files you buy from itunes aren't mp3's.

UT Scott

I have Itunes because I have an Ipod, but I've also used a service (fairly new I think) called ctraxmusic.com. I'm not sure about prices for a subscription (my university has a deal so all students get it for free). I know it's something like $0.89 if I want to "own" it, otherwise it comes with a "restricted" licence (not that you can't get past that ). One thing I don't like about ctrax is that the user interface (just a website unlike the Itunes program) isn't very good, and it seems to be down quit often, but it's free, so I use it!

I've also head that walmart has an online downloading thing, I believe they charge 89 cents aswell but I've never used them before so I can't say anything about how I like it.

Edit: here is the walmart music website

DJ-S1

Anyone tried Urge.com? It's hooked up with MTV, VH1, etc.

DavidTO

I like the iTunes store, but it would be a poor choice for a non-iPod player, as conversion, while fine, would be a PITA.

BTW, the iPod offers max volume via password, also.

gus

limewire

Khaos

more apple kool aid drinking.

again, it's not that it's a bad product, but the ipod is overpriced, and has had many issues that the marketing department at apple has been able to overcome.

I have owned a 40GB Creative Zen for over 4 years now. It's still running strong. The sound is equal if not better than an ipod. The ipod does have a better interface, but not $150 better. Plus, I am able to remove the battery and always have a backup ready.

Plus the proprietary aac format of itunes and it's organizer in my opinion sucks. There are way better alternatives out there. Media Jukebox is the one I use.

Now to the actual question.:D

Google is your friend. Listen to people here and also use google and get insight from other places.

Here are some to start you off:

http://www.ciao.co.uk/MP3_Download_5298062_3

http://www.extremetech.com/image_popup/0,1694,iid=102502,00.asp

DavidTO

gus wrote:

limewire

That's stealing.

DJ-S1

DavidTO wrote:

BTW, the iPod offers max volume via password, also.

That's a way cool thing for parents!

Thanks everyone for the info...

DavidTO

Khaos wrote:

Plus the proprietary aac format of itunes

Is it AAC (which is MP4) that you don't like? Or just the compression rate that they use? I'm thinking it's probably the latter, but want to know what you're thinking here...

And BTW, every store has a proprietor. That's what makes it a store.

DoctorIt

Khaos wrote:

more apple kool aid drinking.

fer chrissakes! who's jumping on who?
DJ asked for what we use. I replied with what I use. Havin' a bad day?

Now seriously, I again will point out I haven't used anything else, so I was unaware of the compatability issue. So DJ, I did some googling for you and I learned this:

1. CD's or music you already own is no problem. The encoder can very easily be changed to create mp3's, so when you rip CD's you bought the old-fashioned way, it's no problem. For those of us who have mp3 libraries from the days of the "old napster", same thing, conversion is easy.

2. The problem arrives with iTunes. So as a direct result of the "old napster", iTunes has to use DRM - Digital Rights Management. This means you are limited in what you can do with the file you purchase online from iTunes. Makes some sense, but yes, limits you to an iPod.
***I now actually remember a way I got around this when I wanted to make an mp3 CD to play in my car. Not pretty, but, it works: buy an album from iTunes, burn to music CD, then rip that music CD back as mp3. Obviously not something DJ's son is going to do, but if anyone else was wondering, it works.

3. I read some articles that say other players are NOT compatible with iTunes, but they were all written in 2003. I haven't found anything more recent.

Links:
recent, kind of a iTunes "hack" - http://www.promoguy.net/archives/002915.php

older articles on iTunes - http://www.ofzenandcomputing.com/zanswers/52

DJ-S1

after some review, I'm leaning towards download only for my son (as opposed to subscription). Wal-Mart seems to be a good start for a beginner such as myself, and maybe I'll check out Urge and Rhapsody as well in their non-subscription variants.

My son isn't exactly looking for bleeding edge artists, so a somewhat limited catalog isn't such a big deal.


[edit] Thanks Doc, good info.[/edit]

DoctorIt

DJ-S1 wrote:

[edit] Thanks Doc, good info.[/edit]

sure

I've been meaning to say, guessing by that new avatar: congratulations?

BeachBill

DJ-S1 wrote:

Help out a dummy here. My 10yo son now has an MP3/video player - Creative Zev V Plus 2GB - and now he's bugging me to download songs. I have no experience in this area.

What do you consider the best online music site and why?

I have used Rhapsody in the past. There is a good site that tells more about Rhapsody here: http://www.rhapsodyguide.com/

Personally I've bought very few mp3s online. 99% of my mp3s come from CDs I already owned. My opinion is that all of these online mp3 stores are way to expensive, and you don't even get physical media.

I have an iPod (got it for free, don't think I would ever buy a mp3 player as my low usage of such a device doesn't make it worth it) and use the iTunes software to manage my mp3 collection. Note you do not need to use the iTunes.com music store to use the iTunes software. I have never purchased a single song from iTunes. With that said, the iTunes software or online store probably isn't a good choice for a non-iPod mp3 player.

There are quite a few mp3 stores around today. I believe Yahoo, AOL, Wal-mart and others run such sites. Also check out emusic.com if it's still around.

DJ-S1

DoctorIt wrote:

I've been meaning to say, guessing by that new avatar: congratulations?

Yep, thanks we are excited! #3, each 5 years or so apart - not necessarily planned, but absolutely happy about it. He or she is 2.1cm long, and yet we still saw a foot kicking out in the ultrasound!

Back OT - #1 son just got 11 songs from Wal-Mart. It was fairly painless, although I can tell this has to be one of the most rudimentary interfaces anywhere. But it got the job done (and the 10 year old off my back for now).

Nice feature of Wal-Mart - explicit lyrics are edited out so old fart parents like me don't have to listen to all the songs to make sure an f-bomb isn't in there somewhere!

Khaos

DavidTO wrote:

Is it AAC (which is MP4) that you don't like? Or just the compression rate that they use? I'm thinking it's probably the latter, but want to know what you're thinking here...

And BTW, every store has a proprietor. That's what makes it a store.

Both.

It's like Sony. Nice product and then they muck it all up by forcing you to adopt to their standards.

The bitrate is too low, but that can be overcome since the do offer a lossess compression. They won't sell music in that format though. I long for when I can buy lossless compressed songs. I know because of bandwidth cost considerations they will cost more, but I'm willing to pay that and many other audiophiles would also. Since apple is unfortunately the leader in this, I at least wish they would offer this option. That alone would make me seriously consider going with itunes and an ipod.

DavidTO

Khaos wrote:

Both.

It's like Sony. Nice product and then they muck it all up by forcing you to adopt to their standards..

It's a pretty standard format: MP4. AAC is just their name for it.

It's proprietary because they're selling it. Stores have proprietors. That's how it works. DRM is a fact of life in the music download world, AFAIK, unless you're using Limewire or such.

I can understand wanting a higher bit rate, but I'm glad it's where it is. I fit more music that way, so it's a potaetow potahtow thing.

They offer lossless compression. Just not on their downloads. But you can rip with lossless compression. Or at least, that's what they claim. Whether you'd be happy with it or not, I can't say.

Khaos

DavidTO wrote:

It's a pretty standard format: MP4. AAC is just their name for it.

It's proprietary because they're selling it. Stores have proprietors. That's how it works. DRM is a fact of life in the music download world, AFAIK, unless you're using Limewire or such.

I can understand wanting a higher bit rate, but I'm glad it's where it is. I fit more music that way, so it's a potaetow potahtow thing.

They offer lossless compression. Just not on their downloads. But you can rip with lossless compression. Or at least, that's what they claim. Whether you'd be happy with it or not, I can't say.

I'm sure it would be fine. I rip lossless now using the APE format. There's FLAC and if I did have an ipod I'd use apple's format. It allows for complete backward conversion to the original song.

I understand the whole DRM idea, but I grew up making mixed tapes, then recording TV shows, and now using a DVR. Now the industry wants to handcuff me in what I can do with what I purchased. I never stole or "swapped" and I I'm no mood to be stuck and limited. When we accept this, the choice is down to buy music or don't buy music, because they want to eliminate everything else.

As to the proprietary aspect. Who else uses mp4? Who own the licensing rights and why will no one else license it?

Do you know why all PCs had crappy USB 1.0 ports and not the much superior firewre? Because Intel didn't charge a royalty for usb and apple charged one for firewire. Well that didn't work out so well. I never heard one person stating, hey apples have firewire so I'm buying one of them.

Apple angers me because they will insist on overpricing, insist on using their own standard while refusing to make it universal to the competive field and too many people think it's just fine and dandy. I'm no MS fan, but I hope Zune actually does take a bite out of apple. But then why those to fight it out, a 3rd party will pick up enough of their droppings to tell both of them and the DRM formats they force on us to go by bye-bye, because something not so restrictive is in town.

DavidTO

AFAIK, the other stores use WMV, which is written and owned by MS. MP4 is a standard that's just as open as MP3, it's the same thing, only better. Higher quality at the same compression rate. The difference is that the Apple DRM only works with iPods. It's a big difference, but to my mind, Apple is playing nicer with standards, using the next generation to MP3 than MS is, pushing their own standard. And I don't know about how well it works on a PC, but on a Mac, I really really hate WMV.

The other alternatives are interesting, but not on my radar, since I'm set in my ways and with my hardware. Much like you.

Khaos

DavidTO wrote:

AFAIK, the other stores use WMV, which is written and owned by MS. MP4 is a standard that's just as open as MP3, it's the same thing, only better. Higher quality at the same compression rate. The difference is that the Apple DRM only works with iPods. It's a big difference, but to my mind, Apple is playing nicer with standards, using the next generation to MP3 than MS is, pushing their own standard. And I don't know about how well it works on a PC, but on a Mac, I really really hate WMV.

The other alternatives are interesting, but not on my radar, since I'm set in my ways and with my hardware. Much like you.

I'm no fan of wmv either. I'm not buying the mp4 being better than mp3 hype though. I'm not saying its worse, but the only place you hear about the quality is from the creators. Being locked into hardware is exactly my point about proprietary being wrong and why we should not buy into it. I'm not locked into my hardware. I can mix and match a ton of componts in my system from a variety of vendors whose products will work in a variety of other machines. My Media jukebox accpepts my player and a ton of other players. I'm not locked in. Apple would like me to be, but fortunately for now they haven't completely killed off all the competiion.

Either way, you're happy with apple and I'm happy with my stuff, so its good. I just get my feathers ruffled up on certain things. Me quit hijacking thread now and go flog myself for doing so.

DavidTO

Khaos wrote:

I'm no fan of wmv either. I'm not buying the mp4 being better than mp3 hype though. I'm not saying its worse, but the only place you hear about the quality is from the creators. Being locked into hardware is exactly my point about proprietary being wrong and why we should not buy into it. I'm not locked into my hardware. I can mix and match a ton of componts in my system from a variety of vendors whose products will work in a variety of other machines.

I just want to be clear that your problem with MP4 locking you into hardware is just not true. I mean, any portable player could easily support MP4, it's wide open. They've all just hopped on the WMV bandwagon. And any player has to support MP3, because of the legacy, including the iPod.

It's NOT MP4 that is at issue, IMO, for you, although I could be totally off-base. It's Apple's DRM version of it. Which is only what you get from the store. Anything you rip on your computer is wide open as well, and will play on any system that plays MP4. And for me, MP4 is clearly better. It's v4 of the same thing, new and improved.

DoctorIt

DJ-S1 wrote:

Yep, thanks we are excited! #3, each 5 years or so apart - not necessarily planned, but absolutely happy about it. He or she is 2.1cm long, and yet we still saw a foot kicking out in the ultrasound!

Back OT - #1 son just got 11 songs from Wal-Mart. It was fairly painless, although I can tell this has to be one of the most rudimentary interfaces anywhere. But it got the job done (and the 10 year old off my back for now).

Nice feature of Wal-Mart - explicit lyrics are edited out so old fart parents like me don't have to listen to all the songs to make sure an f-bomb isn't in there somewhere!

(on both counts )