I am being drawn towards the light....

docwalker

Given the current Canon rebates I am seriously thinking of switching systems. It is not that I dislike my D200 or the Nikon line at all. I am just having a hard time wanting to stay with the black. I am hoping that some of you Canon users or those that have used both systems might be of help making up my mind.

Local supply has always been an issue for me. There are no Nikon pro shops near me. Everything I buy comes from B&H. Thanks HenryP. :clap As for Canon, there is a Canon dealer that carries L glass in town but they specialize in TV's and such and are not realy a photo shop. I can get what I need from them in emergencies. B&H would still be on my list to check first. There is a true pro shop up the mountain that also deals exclusively with Canon and has a decent stock of L glass. So local availability becomes a factor. +1 Canon. Also, availabilty in general of Nikon products has really ticked me off. I had to wait on the D200, the MC-35, and several other Nikon branded items. The Canon stuff i would want always seems to be in stock. +1 Canon.

I am finding myself shooting more and more low light. So I am running into noise problems with the D200. I see more and more here and elsewhere about how Canon has great low light range.

Mechanical noise is also a factor in some of my shoots. The D200 is not real bad but I want to know if anyone has compared the 5d to the D200. I want to go as quiet as possible without going P&S. I have seen others shooting Canon and noted how quiet they are for the most part. I never bothered to find out what model they were shooting. I think it was a 5D or Mk1.

I really wanted the D200 due to the GPS capability. I have used it but I am finding it easier to tag after the fact.

What Canon camera would compare to the D200? The 5D appears to be a close match. I am thinking of getting a 5D and selling my Nikon gear. Then maybe upgrading again next year. My priority is getting the best Canon glass I can afford. First I want to replace my 70-200 f2.8 VR with the Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS. I use the 200 more than my other lenses. One of the wide L series would be next.

I am planning to sell some dive gear to finance the switch. I am shooting more than diving these days anyway.

Please don't get me wrong. I love Nikon and the D200. I just do not see the local situation getting any better. I also think that Nikon is not improving their distribution channels. The D200 and the 18-200 VR are big examples. I hate to think what it will be like when Nikon finally releases the potential full frame camera. That will probably be a nightmare. :hang

Please show me the light... Help me make the right choice. Do I go ahead and jump ship or should I ride it out?

pathfinder

I am a Canon shooter but, I never cease to be amazed at the number of folks who transfer from one brand of SLR to another. The decision is never an easy one, and ultimately comes down to a thorough understanding of where you are and where you want to go.

You need a thorough understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of each system, rather than just liking one camera body over another, and you seem to appreciate this quite well. Availability could certainly be a determining factor for me choosing one brand over another. I have not had significant issues with Canon gear being unable to be obtained on a timely basis.

It sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of some of the differences between the the good guys and the black hats.rofl

If a 5D is high on your list, I would suggest renting or borrowing one and the lenses that interest you, to shoot with for an afternoon before making your decision.

I do not think the shutter is that quiet in the 5D,but then again the 20Ds is also very noisy. A Leica will be quieter and much more capable of evoking envy with its Bling.


Or maybe just buy one of each - Nikon and Canon - and then you can tell us which you prefer :D

You do know the good guys wear white lenses, right?? I wish Canon made a good 28-200 VR lens though......

docwalker

Yep, I am not treading lightly into this. I have done a lot of research even reading the 54 pages of the great debate.

I am not mearly switching systems because of a whim. I just cannot see Nikon ever having a backing in my area. Mail order is fine. But it takes forever for things to get here.

I have been "FFing" the 5D every chance I get. I really did not like the feel of it when I bought the D200. Now my perceptions have changed. I love the 3 kings and actual hard switches on the D200. But, I find that I never change those settings. I spend more time changing things in the shooting menus.

I shoot a lot of available light photos and hardly ever use a flash. The built in flash on the d200 is a joke. So I need something that will give me the shots I need without a lot of noise. The fast lens selection in the Nikon line is a bit steep. Canon lenses are not cheap either but I can walk into a shop and look at one. I cannot do that with Nikon. The 3 Ritz Camera stores in town carry maybe 6 kit lenses at a time. Nothing better than f3.5 is ever on the shelf. The one decent store in town that sells the TV's has 3 of every Canon lens in stock up to the 100-400. This is the same store that had the Manfrotto Neo-Tec Monopod and 322RC2 head in stock.

Oh, and Leica.... I bet most of the staff at our local stores have even heard of Leica and probably none can get one.

My decision to jump ship now is greatly influenced by the current rebate. If I am going to do it. Now is the time. I just have to decide if it is worth it. Noise, physical noise, and supply are also a big factor for me to consider.

Harryb

While I never recommend Canon I think it may be the way to go for yourself because of your local conditions.

I've yet to find an on camera flash that I've liked. I always have ended up with a speedlight, even on my D200. You can get great shots with either system so it really doesn't matter which way you go. Try out a 5D and see how you like it.

ballentphoto

docwalker wrote:

Given the current Canon rebates I am seriously thinking of switching systems. It is not that I dislike my D200 or the Nikon line at all. I am just having a hard time wanting to stay with the black. I am hoping that some of you Canon users or those that have used both systems might be of help making up my mind.

Local supply has always been an issue for me. There are no Nikon pro shops near me. Everything I buy comes from B&H. Thanks HenryP. As for Canon, there is a Canon dealer that carries L glass in town but they specialize in TV's and such and are not realy a photo shop. I can get what I need from them in emergencies. B&H would still be on my list to check first. There is a true pro shop up the mountain that also deals exclusively with Canon and has a decent stock of L glass. So local availability becomes a factor. +1 Canon. Also, availabilty in general of Nikon products has really ticked me off. I had to wait on the D200, the MC-35, and several other Nikon branded items. The Canon stuff i would want always seems to be in stock. +1 Canon.

I am finding myself shooting more and more low light. So I am running into noise problems with the D200. I see more and more here and elsewhere about how Canon has great low light range.

Mechanical noise is also a factor in some of my shoots. The D200 is not real bad but I want to know if anyone has compared the 5d to the D200. I want to go as quiet as possible without going P&S. I have seen others shooting Canon and noted how quiet they are for the most part. I never bothered to find out what model they were shooting. I think it was a 5D or Mk1.

I really wanted the D200 due to the GPS capability. I have used it but I am finding it easier to tag after the fact.

What Canon camera would compare to the D200? The 5D appears to be a close match. I am thinking of getting a 5D and selling my Nikon gear. Then maybe upgrading again next year. My priority is getting the best Canon glass I can afford. First I want to replace my 70-200 f2.8 VR with the Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS. I use the 200 more than my other lenses. One of the wide L series would be next.

I am planning to sell some dive gear to finance the switch. I am shooting more than diving these days anyway.

Please don't get me wrong. I love Nikon and the D200. I just do not see the local situation getting any better. I also think that Nikon is not improving their distribution channels. The D200 and the 18-200 VR are big examples. I hate to think what it will be like when Nikon finally releases the potential full frame camera. That will probably be a nightmare. :hang

Please show me the light... Help me make the right choice. Do I go ahead and jump ship or should I ride it out?

Rather than encourage you running off to the white lens bunch just remember that the grass is just a different shade of brown on the other side of the fence. Nikon has nits (noisey high ISO) and so does Canon (plasticy skin) Nothing is perfect, if you feel that the 5D better suits your needs then by all means go ahead and get it, and report back soon so I can jump ship if you like it barb

docwalker

Harry,

I always liked Andy better anyway.... Just kidding. I really appreciated your advice on the 70-200 you gave a while back. Going faster did help and I love that lens.

I was never snobbish to anyone about why I chose Nikon over Canon. At the time I felt it was the way to go. For some it still is.

I am getting ready to list a scuba diving dry suit on ebay along with someother stuff I need to get rid of if you know anyone that is interested. I need the money I plan to raise enough money to buy what I need without putting it on the credit card. Then I will sell the Nikon gear if I go that route. I would hold onto both if the wife would not kill me first.

Doc

Andy

docwalker wrote:

I am seriously thinking of switching systems.

A wise choice

Andy

docwalker wrote:

Harry,

I always liked Andy better anyway....

docwalker

Oh, so now I have 2 people wanting me to try out the Canon and then let them know how I feel. Are there that many people jumping ship? I might want to wait to see if .... never mind I need get back to ebay.

Andy

docwalker wrote:

even reading the 54 pages of the great debate.

You should get some sorta prize for doing that.

ballentphoto

Andy wrote:

You should get some sorta prize for doing that.

How about a 5D

docwalker

oooh. That would be really nice. And yes 54 pages was spread out over a while. I also looked at the shootout between Andy and Harry.

Andy, your daughter is a sweet heart.

Jeffro

So how much gear would you be replacing?

Where would you purchase the new gear?

With mail order I wouldn't put much weight on the availablity issue. Anything can be anywhere overnight anymore.

I don't have a local camera shop, uless you count 35 miles as local. It has both Canon and Nikon.

I'll never really be able to answer why I went with Canon...maybe they had a better add campaign 20 years ago...:D. I have been happy with Canon every since. Even during my switch to the D-SLR world. The thought of switching brands seems a bit extreme to me. Both are top notch. Neither is truly superior to the other in such a way that it really makes a difference to most. I can think of good and bad with both. Kind of like comparing a Ferrari to a Porsche. I love them both, but if given a choice I'd take a Porsche. (Take...since I can't afford... )

Lets say you switch, and choose to go with B&H to order the new stuff, since I'm sure their prices are lower than your local store. And since rebates seem attractive to you, you must want the best deal. I guess that would mean local availability really doesn't mean that much.

Why not sell diving stuff and upgrad your Nikon body...since you have top quality glass already. I may not like everything about my 20D, and have seen some Nikon things I wish it had, but I would never cross over. I have some great glass, and as time goes by I will get more. From time to time I will upgrade the bodies. Not because I have to, but because I want my camera to catch up with my glass someday. I want the Mark II.

I think people worry way too much about noise. Film has noise, always has...it's called grain. Pictures should have some depth, and sometimes the grain or noise add to that.

I can't believe I (a Canon owner for 22 years) just suggested not swithing over from Nikon. But I will say this, if you don't have a D-SLR yet, and are planning on joining the group....GO CANON!

Stan

I don't understand, mail order is mail order, It arives when it gets there. How often do you need to buy more kit? So at the end of the day that's not the problem. It's not like you are buying new colour filters once a week.

If the system is wrong, and wrong enough for you to completly jump ship, then it is a done deal.

The financial loss you take on the body change is just a colour change. The lenses are either up to the job or they aren't.

The Nikon body capabilities will improve just as the canon have. At the end of the day it comes down to finance. The loss oyu make on the second hand Nikon kit and the dive gear against a complete re kit. If you can, then do. If it upsets the wife, then wait for the upgraded Nikon body.

I wish you well in your choice........ and let us know

Stan

Harryb

Harry,

I always liked Andy better anyway....

Try eating with him before you say that.

docwalker

My current kit includes the D200, 70-200 f2.8 VR, 18-70 f3.5-4.6, 50 f1.8 SB 800, MC-35, off camera flash cord, and the fancy remote that I cannot remember the number of. I just sold my 28-200 and a Quantaray 70-300.

As for where, the local shop will match B&H according to a pro friend. So I would save on shipping if I bought local. I am not only looking at the current situation, I am looking down the road. If I want the latest Nikon whatever, I am going to have to wait 6-9 months at a minimum for the stock to catch up. If I want the latest Canon... It is already on the shelf. So yes it is a factor. I am not just looking at lens and body. I am looking at the remotes, flash cords, batteries, whatever.

The trends I am seeing are showing Nikon lagging badly in the development/release to market arena. I just checked and the 18-200 VR is still backordered. Does Canon have the same lens. I don't care at this point. I cannot get one anyway.

If the suit sells, I could go ahead and upgrade my Nikon wide lens and stay Nikon. But, that 17-55 f2.8 i was looking at is out of stock as well.

Stan

docwalker wrote:

I just checked and the 18-200 VR is still backordered. Does Canon have the same lens. I don't care at this point. I cannot get one anyway.

Not on that range at any quality at that price but then a one lens does it all has its own compromises. Sigma and Tamron do, but they aren't VR or IS

Why do you want to buy a limited quality lens for a 5D body when you have a 70-200 2.8 VR?

Stan

marlinspike

I'm just going to say my piece real quick. Canon 5D is the king of noise outside of the Canon 1Ds Mk2. Honestly, I think between Canon and Nikon, Canon is almost always the way to go because both of those brands lack the same thing (innovation and fair prices), but at least Canon gets better noise handling. Having said that, when I shoot film, I shoot with Nikon.

LiquidAir

If you were talking about a 30D, I would say don't do it. But I have a 5D and I wouldn't think of giving up the full frame sensor and the correspondingly brighter viewfinder (1.6*1.6 = 2.56 times more light or about 1 1/3 stops).

Some thoughts on the 5D after 4 months of fairly heavy use:

Image quality is stunning. ISO 800 is very usable--I have some 8x12 prints shot at 800 that nearly jump off the wall they are so sharp and lively. ISO 1600 is workable if your subject matter has good contrast and you nail the exposure.

I wish the auto focus was better. It is fast enough for me but only the center focus point is accurate enough to use with wide apetures. I am betting that the next generation of full frame bodies from Canon will include a 3D comperable to the old EOS-3 (which I used for many years): a lightweight body with 1-series auto focus.

The full frame sensor has more pixels but they are farther apart. That accounts for some of the diversity of opinions on lens quality in the Canon camp. The 5D looks better with lenses that have good edge to edge sharpness. The crop bodies look better with lenes that have exceptional center sharpness.

The Canon selection of f/2.8 zooms breaks in a funny place on a full frame camera. 24-70 and 70-200. While that works well on a crop camera, on the 5D, 70mm is right in the center of my favorite working range. Rather than trying to make that work, I have gone with the 24-105 f/4 and a selection of primes for low light work. The 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 135 f/2 are my low light lenses.

docwalker

Stan wrote:

Not on that range at any quality at that price but then a one lens does it all has its own compromises. Sigma and Tamron do, but they aren't VR or IS

Why do you want to buy a limited quality lens for a 5D body when you have a 70-200 2.8 VR?

Stan

Don't worry, I would not buy that lens. I was using it as an example of the current situation. As for Sigma and Tamron, I am done with buying third party lenses for the most part.

Stan

docwalker wrote:

Don't worry, I would not buy that lens. I was using it as an example of the current situation. As for Sigma and Tamron, I am done with buying third party lenses for the most part.

Good

Jeffro

docwalker wrote:

My current kit includes the D200, 70-200 f2.8 VR, 18-70 f3.5-4.6, 50 f1.8 SB 800, MC-35, off camera flash cord, and the fancy remote that I cannot remember the number of. I just sold my 28-200 and a Quantaray 70-300.

As for where, the local shop will match B&H according to a pro friend. So I would save on shipping if I bought local. I am not only looking at the current situation, I am looking down the road. If I want the latest Nikon whatever, I am going to have to wait 6-9 months at a minimum for the stock to catch up. If I want the latest Canon... It is already on the shelf. So yes it is a factor. I am not just looking at lens and body. I am looking at the remotes, flash cords, batteries, whatever.

The trends I am seeing are showing Nikon lagging badly in the development/release to market arena. I just checked and the 18-200 VR is still backordered. Does Canon have the same lens. I don't care at this point. I cannot get one anyway.

If the suit sells, I could go ahead and upgrade my Nikon wide lens and stay Nikon. But, that 17-55 f2.8 i was looking at is out of stock as well.

If your local camera shop will meet B&H prices, you are one lucky dude. That just may be a sign......... My "local" shop or even shops, are close on the body prices, but nowhere near competitive when it comes to the lenses and extra goodies.

docwalker

LiquidAir wrote:

The Canon selection of f/2.8 zooms breaks in a funny place on a full frame camera. 24-70 and 70-200. While that works well on a crop camera, on the 5D, 70mm is right in the center of my favorite working range. Rather than trying to make that work, I have gone with the 24-105 f/4 and a selection of primes for low light work. The 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 135 f/2 are my low light lenses.

Forgive me if I am wrong but a full frame digital has a sensor the same size as a film camera. Was the standard break not at 70 for film? I remember 70-200mm was a key lens for film. What is the crop factor for the 5d. or is there one.

pathfinder

The 5d is full frame, 24x36mm, just like the 1DsMkll and the 1Ds.

I use a 24-105 f4 IS L on the 5D more than any other lens, when out of doors. Indoors, the 24-70 f2.8 rocks, as does the 85 f1.8 or the 35 f1.4 or even the 135 f2.

marlinspike

LiquidAir wrote:

Image quality is stunning. ISO 800 is very usable--I have some 8x12 prints shot at 800 that nearly jump off the wall they are so sharp and lively. ISO 1600 is workable if your subject matter has good contrast and you nail the exposure.

Let me guess, you use DPP for processing your RAWs? I found DPP to be horrible with noise, but even with when I had a 10D, using RSP or ACR iso 1600 was fine. Heck, I made a 20x30 iso 1600 from a 10D file that had to be bumped up by 1/3 stop in post processing and it was fine. 20D can do just about anything at iso 1600 fine, and from the RAW 5D files I've seen it should have no problem doing gigantic prints at iso 1600.

And yes, 70 was the break back in the film days and the 5D sensor is the same size as a piece of 35mm film.

docwalker

marlinspike wrote:

And yes, 70 was the break back in the film days and the 5D sensor is the same size as a piece of 35mm film.

Thats what I thought. When liquidair said that it broke in a "funny place" it had me

marlinspike

docwalker wrote:

Thats what I thought. When liquidair said that it broke in a "funny place" it had me

Well I suppose in the old old film days, people were using 35, 50, 85, so I can see where one might want the break at 85 (and indeed consumer zooms go to 85), but for some reason the top line zooms always broke at 70mm, so I guess it may have been an optical issue.

Duckys54

marlinspike wrote:

Well I suppose in the old old film days, people were using 35, 50, 85, so I can see where one might want the break at 85 (and indeed consumer zooms go to 85), but for some reason the top line zooms always broke at 70mm, so I guess it may have been an optical issue.

I have a few old lenes from around the 70's/80's (if I recall currectly): A 35-105mm, a 28mm, 50mm, 80-200mm, and 90-210mm. Plus a few other converters.

ziggy53

Doc,

Don't forget about the Canon 1D MKII(N) cameras.

Amazing lowlight/hi-ISO performance.
Amazing responsiveness.
Good compromise crop factor.
"The" camera for sports, but also superb for portrait work.
Great user interface.
Extremely customizable.
Best shutter mechanism in the Canon line.
Body tough enough to drive tent stakes. (Probably tough enough to drive rebar into cured concrete.)

The switch from a 1.5 crop camera (Nikon D200) to a FF camera (Canon 5D) is going to be a considerable shock to your senses. The 1D MKII is a pretty good compromise at 1.3 crop.

ziggy53

Jeffro

ziggy53 wrote:

Don't forget about the Canon 1D MKII(N) cameras.

ziggy53

That's my next camera! I love my 20D, but I really, really, really want the 1D MKIIn. I've held it in my, then sweaty, hands and almost didn't let it go....

docwalker

Ziggy,

Currently that is out of my budget. I am thinking of getting into the line with the 5D and buying the lenses that I want. Then wait a bit and upgrade the body and keep the 5D as a backup.

Doc