Getting Published Or Getting Paid.........

imax · November 5, 2006

I did some work for a local private college and they actually used my photographs for there 2006 Volleyball Media Guide. Natually they gave me credit in the guide and a big thank you but no dinero for it. My photograph of the team was even the cover. Since no fee was ever negotiated I did not expect payment. Here's the last volleyball home game from today. Security was tight

Here's the link to see more if you like

http://imax.smugmug.com/Sports

My question is how do you progess from doing the work for free to negotiating a financial agreement from them since they are use to free? Anyone else doing work for local colleges and getting monetary compensation for their efforts? Would like to hear your success stories or even your horror stories. Thanks in advance for any replies.....

Joe

hesaias · November 5, 2006

I have the same delima, and you can expect a little harsh feedback from some folks for giving your work away.

However, I did shoot the HS Championship game for my local paper, and they used my pics over the staff photogs. I got no jack, but I did get sideline passes to the game, which I could not have gotten otherwise. Since then, the editor has asked for a shot from me for the front page. I did not have what he was looking for, but he did ask about what it would cost. I put my pics on the net, lo-res, and have offered the School my pics for the yearbook and such in exchange for the access they give me, and now can sell prints to players and families.

If your shots are not out there, nobody can see them. Thats my take. Make sure folks can get in touch with you should they want to buy them and give it some time. Shoot lots of different sports.

mercphoto · November 5, 2006

imax wrote:

My question is how do you progess from doing the work for free to negotiating a financial agreement from them since they are use to free?

Odds are you will not. As you say, they are used to free. And odds are they can find someone else willing to give photos away for "access", or for the thrill of getting published. Find a client who values what you do enough to actually *gasp* pay you for your effort.

johng · November 6, 2006

I agree with Bill. You'll probably have to change clients. Shooting for free for a given client CAN be a good way to get access and gain practice and experience. You really do need to get your craft to an acceptable level before charging for it (and I'm speaking in general terms here, I am NOT saying your work isn't acceptable). But, that won't likely be the client that pays you. Unfortunately with that client you've already set a perceived value of your worth - nothing. Take the experience as your payment and move on to other clients. Show them a printed portfolio of work tailored for their use (i.e. with the sports you plan on covering for them and the style of shots they would like to see) and negotiate a price up front.

ppuga · November 6, 2006

For getting paid you need to get published.

If you don't publish, the future clientes will not know you or your work.

So you have to decide, when you are an amateur or it's your hobbie and get the chance to get published, go for it! Good things to come with that!

If you're a reconized Pro, don't give your work for free, un less you are pro with a lot of money so you can do that.

mercphoto · November 6, 2006

ppuga wrote:

For getting paid you need to get published.

Your entire argument hinges upon this. Why, exactly, must you get published before getting paid? I do not agree. In fact, I got paid on my very first published photo -- my first published photo was also paid for by the publication it appeared in.

Phyxius · November 6, 2006

I was official photographer at my first big United Stated Dressage Federation and United States Equestrian Federation show back in September. I'd done plenty of schooling shows, but this one was different. These people are competing for year end awards and are really going for the score. I myself have ridden in these kinds of shows and I'm not usually impressed with the photographs available. The timing is off or there are only 2-3 shots. :cry

Imagine my delight when people e-mailed/called me asking for CDs or bought 5 prints! Woo, success!

Then I started getting the calls of, "I won the HOY and would like to use one of the pictures I bought from you and was wondering how I could get a release." and other similar calls. So, now these riders are submitting my pictures, with releases from me to be published by breed publications, USDF magazine, Dressage Daily magazine, and USDF region 1 omnibus. Not a one of them gave me any trouble about paying.

It's just like when you're hesitant about whether or not you're allowed to be somewhere. That hesitation looks like guilt and you'll probably get kicked out. If you're confident and assured you might be able to stay where you are. If you're pictures are quality, be confident that they are and know what your work is worth.

All that being said it's also good to know how much "help" FROM you can help open doors FOR you. I submit pictures I take at the shows to the local GMO's (Group Member Organization) newsletter for free, with just a photo credit that includes my website. Many of the people in the GMO are getting to know me now and seeing my pictures in the newsletter helps them remember who I am. Also, since I send them in, they're usually people who have purchased a picture from me. Who doesn't like seeing a picture of themselves competing in print? Make the customer happy and they'll probably be a repeat customer.

photodoug · November 7, 2006

Phyxius wrote:

I was official photographer at my first big United Stated Dressage Federation and United States Equestrian Federation show back in September. I'd done plenty of schooling shows, but this one was different. These people are competing for year end awards and are really going for the score. I myself have ridden in these kinds of shows and I'm not usually impressed with the photographs available. The timing is off or there are only 2-3 shots. :cry

Imagine my delight when people e-mailed/called me asking for CDs or bought 5 prints! Woo, success!

Then I started getting the calls of, "I won the HOY and would like to use one of the pictures I bought from you and was wondering how I could get a release." and other similar calls. So, now these riders are submitting my pictures, with releases from me to be published by breed publications, USDF magazine, Dressage Daily magazine, and USDF region 1 omnibus. Not a one of them gave me any trouble about paying.

It's just like when you're hesitant about whether or not you're allowed to be somewhere. That hesitation looks like guilt and you'll probably get kicked out. If you're confident and assured you might be able to stay where you are. If you're pictures are quality, be confident that they are and know what your work is worth.

All that being said it's also good to know how much "help" FROM you can help open doors FOR you. I submit pictures I take at the shows to the local GMO's (Group Member Organization) newsletter for free, with just a photo credit that includes my website. Many of the people in the GMO are getting to know me now and seeing my pictures in the newsletter helps them remember who I am. Also, since I send them in, they're usually people who have purchased a picture from me. Who doesn't like seeing a picture of themselves competing in print? Make the customer happy and they'll probably be a repeat customer.

"Oh, so it's a PROFIT deal!" - Steve Martin, The Jerk

Seefutlung · November 7, 2006

Back to the original thread of getting from non-profit to profit. I agree with Bill ... if a publication is used to getting art for free ... don't except to be getting any revenues from them ... they probably don't have a budget. If they don't have a budget for art ... then how important is art to them ... right. They would rather use crummy art than pay for good art. At a school they can get plenty of wanna-be photogs who would be happy to work for free.

As least you're getting published ... so when you ask/demand/except to get paid for your work, aT least now you have a track record/resume of published stuff.

Gary

hesaias · November 7, 2006

Seefutlung wrote:

Back to the original thread of getting from non-profit to profit. I agree with Bill ... if a publication is used to getting art for free ... don't except to be getting any revenues from them ... they probably don't have a budget. If they don't have a budget for art ... then how important is art to them ... right. They would rather use crummy art than pay for good art. At a school they can get plenty of wanna-be photogs who would be happy to work for free.

As least you're getting published ... so when you ask/demand/except to get paid for your work, aT least now you have a track record/resume of published stuff.

Gary

This is pretty much the line of thinking I had going into it. I can show where my pics have been published, but I do not expect those folks to be a paying customer. That said, I do not "give" pics to newspapers anymore. I did that once, and they used my shot for a 3/4 page color above the fold front page shot. I traded that for access to the sidelines for a State championship game. I would not have got the shots without access, but they really broke it off in me by selling a special edition of thier paper full of my pictures.

That said, I have had several inquiries about purchasing prints. Nothing had panned out yet, but I am hoping to really start putting my name out there and keeping samples on me at games and stuff.

mercphoto · November 7, 2006

hesaias wrote:

That said, I do not "give" pics to newspapers anymore.

And neither do I. When my local rinky-dink weekly in a small town pays for photos, I fail to see why large city newspapers can't, why magazines can't, etc. A karting magazine wanted to use my shots but I demanded payment. They offered credit and said they don't pay for photos. I asked him if the magazine paid him to be editor. He got the hint but didn't like it...

I would not have got the shots without access

And the point is? After all, they would not have got that front-page shot unless they had given you, or someone, access as well. This is why trading shots for access is a bum deal for the photographer and a great deal for the publication.

That said, I have had several inquiries about purchasing prints. Nothing had panned out yet, but I am hoping to really start putting my name out there and keeping samples on me at games and stuff.

Bingo. Access and getting published usually turns out to be a lot less valuable to the photographer than most people think it is. Think about it, that player already has your picture, published in the newspaper, cut out and hanging on his wall.

Seefutlung · November 7, 2006

The problem is that it is a bit of a vicious circle ... to get hired or in many cases even paid for one';s time as a photog, one needs to be published ... but to get published one initially works for free or not at all.

As an ol' press photog from back in the days of film and no-auto ... I think that once one developed darkroom skills it was a whole lot easier to get paid and get hired as very few people had said skills. But with the advent of digital and auto-everything, the marketplace is flooded with "photographers" who don't know a gray card from a hole in the ground.

*sigh* it's a jungle out there.

Gary

winger · November 9, 2006

Oh oh I can speak on this subject.

As for this college you are currently shooting for, they are going to expect the prints for free. Colleges do this from D-III up to D-I there are tones of shooters that will give them prints for the access. Some colleges at the D-I level will still have their shooter come in but I know where I shoot they were asking from photos from students that came down at from the local photography school in exchange for the access.

Is it right? Who knows, the business side of me can’t exactly blame the Sport Information Directors for trying to get something for nothing and receiving it. Some of them don’t even realize the crap they are getting and their image looks like crap because of the bad photos.

And it’s tough I can tell you entirely what to do in the situation but let me tell you what happened to me:
Fall 2004 I started shooting a DI college events in my spare time, I would post some of the best images on a message board that is shared by the fans. The Sport Information Director saw the photos and liked them. Offered to pay me per game to shoot (really low fee, but as I talked to more pro short shooters about my situation most of them were just glad I was charging something as I gained experience). I did this for a whole year, and even at that low fee, I made at least enough to cover my equipment costs.

Now the next year the relationship changed, I currently work for the university so because of administrative red tape I could no longer be paid to shoot. So I could have continued to shoot and give them the images for free, but then I am setting up all the photographers in the area to starve! And at some point I want to be able to pay my students loans.

Because of school I didn’t pursue other avenues aggressively, but I still got work that came and found me and I could still shoot the same college athletics, and I still got money from prints sales (which I had to stop as the NCAA changed its mind AGAIN about 3rd party photographers).

I know it frustrates the university that they cant have my images because a good portion of the time I have better stuff than they guy that was charging 5 times as much as I was. And I have shot a couple of things but in trade for a ton of that colleges logoed apparel (stuff like Olympic sports that often wouldn’t get the coverage they needed during the season, and I liked the coaches and didn’t want to screw the athletes).

But in the long run it looks like this. A) That college is not getting free photos from me.

It is likely I am leaving the university soon and moving to the eastern part of the state, which this college has quite a few games/. Meets whatever at. When that happens because I didn’t give the stuff away and my stuff has improved 10 fold since that fall 2 years ago I can charge the same amount that they guy that shots locally charges. This school is often looking for a game or two in the away uniforms, and this would be a win win for both parties. C) Since I already have a relationship with them, setting something up like this wouldn’t be that hard, the university also sells prints online, and since I would often be shooting it wouldn’t be that hard to set up at all.

If nothing else I have great photo references and a portfolio that will help me get more college sports shooting jobs as well.

You could also look for other opportunities to shoot as well, youth sports events, your local paper, then you get access and you only have to submit one photo, you can spend 2 hours trying to get a great photo! And practice and challenge yourself to make 100 great photos, because that is what the sport information director expects when you shoot a game for them.

Although to be honest the volleyball photos are ok but they are not that great. So I guess it depends on what the university currently has for shooters. It looks like a dIII college so they might not even be able to pay you, then he shoot for some gear. And I do feel bad trying to form an opinion on your photos through the volleyball ones because I know it’s a hard sport to shoot. I think I have maybe seen 10 impressive volleyball photos in my life, and they involved strobes and being in the catwalk.

Some tips for your future shooting. Media guides are looking for a) isolated shots of the player, having another team in there is nice too, like for hockey two guys fighting for the puck. In volleyball you would only really get that at the net. Sport information is also looking for what they call the “jub” or jubilation shot. Celebrating a great spike, point, game win; look for shots of the coaching staff, trainers, and assistants. They are all part of the team, I don’t know how many times I still get called for shots that the college I had shot for wants that are coaches and trainers because their current guy STILL hasn’t figured out that is what they want.

For sports whether indoor or out, think faces faces face, you want to see the player, the action, you don’t want to see they backside. And watch the backgrounds, which is part of what I think makes volleyball challenging in the setting it is played in. But if I ever got a chance to shoot volleyball, I would imagine I would either be sitting on the floor, as high as I could in the stands, from the ends of the gym and from above if it accessible. That would clean up a lot of your backgrounds.

And another tip on your smugmug site, shorten up your portfolio. Its HUGE, a portfolio is like a resume you want it short and too the point to see you. That many photos takes too much time to get through and someone looking to hire you has already formed an opinion. Maybe you want have a general portfolio and then some photo genre specific. Have other people look at it, we as humans can get real attached to some photos partly because we end up associating an experience with that photo. But it might just be an ok photo, you want your portfolio to be long enough to show a wide array of your work, and you need each photo to pop out and say WOW.

And in closing, I just want to say this is all just my opinion drawn from experiences, over the last two years. I still have a ton to learn about post processing as I am usually a “like to get it right in camera” kind of girl, but I am still having yellow ice trouble with my ice hockey shots (but at least now I figured part of it was the computer I often work on doesn’t really show the yellow ice so I need to calibrate it). But I do have to say I feel like the decisions I have made, the hard work I have put in has put me in a real good position that where ever I settle for a job, I feel like I will be able to pay off my student loans in a couple of years with photography jobs.

Good lucky and keep shooting!!

winger · November 9, 2006

Seefutlung wrote:

The problem is that it is a bit of a vicious circle ... to get hired or in many cases even paid for one';s time as a photog, one needs to be published ... but to get published one initially works for free or not at all.

As an ol' press photog from back in the days of film and no-auto ... I think that once one developed darkroom skills it was a whole lot easier to get paid and get hired as very few people had said skills. But with the advent of digital and auto-everything, the marketplace is flooded with "photographers" who don't know a gray card from a hole in the ground.

*sigh* it's a jungle out there.

Gary

I had never been published until AFTER i got my first paying photograhpy job. There is alot to shoot out there in terms of sports, shooting youth sports the same principles behind shooting college athletics apply. Imagine how good your photos could be if you challenged yourself to make beerleague softball photos exciting!

If people want to get better I dont think they need to be published or paid, like I said there are tons of sports. If you have a kid that plays soccer, shoot all their soccer games, but challenge yourself to turn out the best darn soccer photos you can find. I am constantly looking at photo websites for new ideas, sportsshooter, fredmiranda and this one are the 3 i look at the most.

But I would disagree that you need to be published to be paid, especially as it looks like this school is dIII, the usually dont have the funds to pay for photos, so it is working a balance between you getting experience, and the school getting photos they can afford but not for free.

Seefutlung · November 9, 2006

winger wrote:

I had never been published until AFTER i got my first paying photograhpy job. There is alot to shoot out there in terms of sports, shooting youth sports the same principles behind shooting college athletics apply. Imagine how good your photos could be if you challenged yourself to make beerleague softball photos exciting!

If people want to get better I dont think they need to be published or paid, like I said there are tons of sports. If you have a kid that plays soccer, shoot all their soccer games, but challenge yourself to turn out the best darn soccer photos you can find. I am constantly looking at photo websites for new ideas, sportsshooter, fredmiranda and this one are the 3 i look at the most.

But I would disagree that you need to be published to be paid, especially as it looks like this school is dIII, the usually dont have the funds to pay for photos, so it is working a balance between you getting experience, and the school getting photos they can afford but not for free.

There are always expections ... I believe my statements addressed what the majority of photographers encounter rather than the exception.

If the photog is unknown to the publication, a mainstream publication in a major market, usually will review the photog's published works and have an interview, prior to a contract.

Typically, it has been my experience, that a resume of published work makes it a lot easier to obtain additional paying publish work and said resume usually is helpful to get top dollar for your time and/or shots.

These were called String Books back then.

Gary

imax · November 12, 2006

Thanks toeveryone for taking the time to reply. I realize that they will not at this point in time pay for what I am giving them. I am thinking about several other options including offering prints to the opposing teams, offering prints to the opposing players as well as other ideas. I have to look at it as a foot in the door and hopefully it will gain me access to more events. The head of the sports department has already asked me to do the home basketball games for the school,.

While I'm personally not to happy with the way the photographs have come out recently, he stated that he was. What if any recommendations could be made as to the best type of lens to shoot indoor sports with as well as doing portrait type work. I am considering just investing the money in the following lens but I would like to get some input from the sport shooters here first. I have been reading some great things about the following two lenses.

70~200 Canon f/2.8 IS L USM

70-200 f/4

Any thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for the help.

Joe

mercphoto · November 12, 2006

imax wrote:

70~200 Canon f/2.8 IS L USM

70-200 f/4

Indoor sports demands fast glass. f/4 is not fast. f/2.8 is barely fast. Ask yourself if you really want the image stabilizer though, the 70-200/2.8 comes with and without. Getting it without saves $$$. But I think you'll find the f/4 just not up to the task of indoor sports.

imax · November 12, 2006

mercphoto wrote:

Indoor sports demands fast glass. f/4 is not fast. f/2.8 is barely fast. Ask yourself if you really want the image stabilizer though, the 70-200/2.8 comes with and without. Getting it without saves $$$. But I think you'll find the f/4 just not up to the task of indoor sports.

Thanks for the quick response Bill,

So if I'm doing portrait work which I do plan on the IS on the 2.8 is the way to go correct? Any other suggestions as far as lenses go for sports or are the above the best way to go? Thanks again

Joe

mercphoto · November 12, 2006

imax wrote:

So if I'm doing portrait work which I do plan on the IS on the 2.8 is the way to go correct?

Why IS for portrait work? Ask yourself what shutter speeds you are likely to use for portrait work.

johng · November 13, 2006

Get primes for both purposes.

An 85mm 1.8 lens will serve you much better for basketball and portrait work than a 70-200 will. Throw in a 135 2.0 and the combo is an excellent indoor sports shooting combo and fabulous for portrait work.

The 70-200 2.8 is good in extremely well lit college gyms. But most gyms aren't that well lit. Combine that with Canon camera's natural tendancy to underexpose (to protect highlights) - which causes noise issues if you don't compensate by adjusting exposure (i.e. if my camera meters an indoor game at ISO 1600, f2.0 1/640 I find that setting the shutter to 1/400 produces much better results - on my 20d it is fairly consistantly a 2/3 stop increase to get what I consider a proper exposure in-camera).

So, do some tests to find out if the gym you will be shooting in is bright enough for you to shoot at ISO 1600, f2.8 and get 1/400 or better shutter speeds WITH CORRECT EXPOSURE. If it is, then great - get the 70-200 2.8. If it's borderline, you'll get much better results with primes.

Getting Published Or Getting Paid.........

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