Nikon D70S

dimples453

Hey folks...just curious about something. I normally shoot in manual mode...but I ran a test the other day to see how the camera would respond. I shot in full auto mode and copied all the exif settings (exposure, compensation etc) to manual and shot the same object under the same light with the same on-board flash but the images always come out darker (underexposed a bit). I looked at the exif data of both shots but they are for the most part the same but the images look different....anybody care to give me some insight would be wonderful...

here are the two exifs and shots

Make: NIKON CORPORATION
Model: NIKON D70s
Date modified: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:28 AM
Orientation: Top / left side
X-Resolution: 300/1
Y-Resolution: 300/1
Resolution unit: Inch
Firmware version: Ver.1.00
YCbCr-Positioning: 2
Comment:
Date taken: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:28 AM
Date digitized: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:28 AM
Exposure time : 1/60
Exposure program: Manual
Exposure mode: Manual
Exposure bias [EV]: 0.0
F-Number: F4.5
Focal length [mm]: 70
35mm focal length [mm]: 105
Max. aperture: F4.4
Digital zoom: Off
Subj. distance range: Unknown
Flash: Fired, auto mode, return light detected
Metering mode: Multi-segment
Gain control: None
Light source: Unknown
White balance: Auto
Contrast: Normal
Saturation: Normal
Sharpness: Normal
Colour space: sRGB
Subsec time: 00
Subsec time original: 00
Subsec time digitized: 00
Sensing method: One-chip color area sensor
File source: DSC
CFA pattern:
Custom rendered: Normal
Scene type:
Subject program: Standard
Image width: 3008
Image height: 2000
Components configuration: YCbCr
Average compression ratio: 2/1
EXIF version: 0221
FlashPix version: 0100
Makernote: 4E 69 6B 6F 6E 00 02 10 00 00 4D 4D 00 2A 00 00 00 08 00 2A 00 01 00 07 00 00 00 04 30 32 31 30 00 02 00 03 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 C8 00 04 00 02 00 00 00 08 00 00 02 06 00 05 00 02 00 00 00 0D 00 00 02 0E 00 06 00 02 00 00 00 07 00 00 02 1E 00 07 00 02 00 00 00 07 00 00 02 26 00 08 00 02 00 00 00 0D ...
Compression: 6
X-Resolution: 300/1
Y-Resolution: 300/1
Resolution unit: Centimeter
JPEG offset: 22480
JPEG size: 9931
YCbCr-Positioning: 2
Index: R98
Version: 0100


Make: NIKON CORPORATION
Model: NIKON D70s
Date modified: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:37 AM
Orientation: Top / left side
X-Resolution: 300/1
Y-Resolution: 300/1
Resolution unit: Inch
Firmware version: Ver.1.00
YCbCr-Positioning: 2
Comment:
Date taken: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:37 AM
Date digitized: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:37 AM
Exposure time : 1/60
Exposure program: unknown (0)
Exposure mode: Auto
Exposure bias [EV]: 0.0
F-Number: F4.5
Focal length [mm]: 70
35mm focal length [mm]: 105
Max. aperture: F4.4
Digital zoom: Off
Subj. distance range: Unknown
Flash: Fired, auto mode, return light detected
Metering mode: Multi-segment
Gain control: None
Light source: Unknown
White balance: Auto
Contrast: Normal
Saturation: Normal
Sharpness: Normal
Colour space: sRGB
Subsec time: 00
Subsec time original: 00
Subsec time digitized: 00
Sensing method: One-chip color area sensor
File source: DSC
CFA pattern:
Custom rendered: Normal
Scene type:
Subject program: Standard
Image width: 3008
Image height: 2000
Components configuration: YCbCr
Average compression ratio: 2/1
EXIF version: 0221
FlashPix version: 0100
Makernote: 4E 69 6B 6F 6E 00 02 10 00 00 4D 4D 00 2A 00 00 00 08 00 2A 00 01 00 07 00 00 00 04 30 32 31 30 00 02 00 03 00 00 00 02 00 00 00 C8 00 04 00 02 00 00 00 08 00 00 02 06 00 05 00 02 00 00 00 0D 00 00 02 0E 00 06 00 02 00 00 00 07 00 00 02 1E 00 07 00 02 00 00 00 07 00 00 02 26 00 08 00 02 00 00 00 0D ...
Compression: 6
X-Resolution: 300/1
Y-Resolution: 300/1
Resolution unit: Centimeter
JPEG offset: 26464
JPEG size: 10729
YCbCr-Positioning: 2
Index: R98
Version: 0100

JenGrace

I'm not a digital camera expert, so someone else may provide a better answer. But here's my humble theory. Perhaps shooting in full auto gives you brighter pictures because full auto has settings for brightness, contrast, etc. that in exif data shows up as "normal" because that is normal for full auto. But when you set it to full manual, those settings are set back to zero or default and that is "normal" for full auto under the exif data.

Again, don't know if that is the actual reason, but that would be my best guess.

kygarden

Since you're letting the camera do the metering and set the exposure, I'm going to say it's for that reason...the camera is underexposing a little, like the D70 has been well known to do. Sorry I don't have a more technical assesment...but my old D70 always seemed to underexpose a little in auto or P mode. However, since the exposure time and aperature were the same in those exampes...I don't know. I just have to assume the camera is applying some other settings in the auto modes to make the difference.

JenGrace

kygarden wrote:

Since you're letting the camera do the metering and set the exposure, I'm going to say it's for that reason...the camera is underexposing a little, like the D70 has been well known to do. Sorry I don't have a more technical assesment...but my old D70 always seemed to underexpose a little in auto or P mode.

But isn't dimples saying that it was darker in manual rather than auto...?

dimples453 wrote:

I shot in full auto mode and copied all the exif settings (exposure, compensation etc) to manual and shot the same object under the same light with the same on-board flash but the images always come out darker

.

At least that's how I read it... *confused now*

kygarden

JenW wrote:

But isn't dimples saying that it was darker in manual rather than auto...?


.

At least that's how I read it... *confused now*

I thought he was saying it was darker in auto mode. I made that assumption anyway since mine used to do that and it kinda reads that way.
EDIT: Ooops...you're right. Sorry....looks like that's what he's saying...darker in manual mode.

You know, I don't see the ISO setting used for the photos in there anywhere or am I overlooking it?

>>> Hmmmm....I just looked over it again and I don't see the ISO that was used. That might explain a difference if somehow the ISO was different on each photo.

One more idea - maybe the flash is doing something a little different in auto mode?

I'm just babbling at this point. I better shut up I'm sure someone knows the answer.

DoctorIt

dimples453 wrote:

Date taken: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:28 AM
Exposure time : 1/60
Exposure program: Manual
Exposure mode: Manual
Exposure bias [EV]: 0.0
F-Number: F4.5
Focal length [mm]: 70
Max. aperture: F4.4
Subj. distance range: Unknown
Flash: Fired, auto mode, return light detected
Metering mode: Multi-segment
Gain control: None
White balance: Auto
Contrast: Normal
Saturation: Normal
Sharpness: Normal
Subject program: Standard
JPEG offset: 22480
JPEG size: 9931


Date taken: Friday, November 10, 2006 12:58:37 AM
Exposure time : 1/60
Exposure program: unknown (0)
Exposure mode: Auto
Exposure bias [EV]: 0.0
F-Number: F4.5
Focal length [mm]: 70
Max. aperture: F4.4
Subj. distance range: Unknown
Flash: Fired, auto mode, return light detected
Metering mode: Multi-segment
Gain control: None
White balance: Auto
Contrast: Normal
Saturation: Normal
Sharpness: Normal
Subject program: Standard
JPEG offset: 26464
JPEG size: 10729

Interesting... I've never tried this with my D70. So I boiled down your EXIF to the more pertinent parameters so that we could look more easily/closely.

I did find one difference highlighted in red. So if I understand that right, the JPG made with Auto is actually bigger = higher quality? Could that explain why Auto looks brighter?

More importantly, though, how are you quantifying "looks brighter"? You'd have to post histograms to truly compare the difference. Can you do that? Can you also post the photos for us to judge?

dimples453

The following is the Manual mode pic (underexposed):


The next is the full auto pic.


Thanks folks!

DoctorIt wrote:

Interesting... I've never tried this with my D70. So I boiled down your EXIF to the more pertinent parameters so that we could look more easily/closely.

I did find one difference highlighted in red. So if I understand that right, the JPG made with Auto is actually bigger = higher quality? Could that explain why Auto looks brighter?

More importantly, though, how are you quantifying "looks brighter"? You'd have to post histograms to truly compare the difference. Can you do that? Can you also post the photos for us to judge?

dimples453

let me try that again...

Manaul mode:
http://em-photos.smugmug.com/gallery/2114824/1/109307434


and full auto:
http://em-photos.smugmug.com/gallery/2114824/1/109307399

DoctorIt

Dimples - I fixed your first post for you. Just a quick note: when you want to post images, you need to use the link to the image, not the page. As in, the link which you wrap the img --- /img tags around must be a link to a .jpg. You tried to display a link as an image.

link: http://em-photos.smugmug.com/gallery/2114824/1/109307434/Medium

image: http://em-photos.smugmug.com/photos/109307434-M.jpg

Clear as mud?

Now as for the quandry, this is quite a difference and I'm even more confused. The difference is large enough that you can disregard my request for histograms.

So now I wonder - the D70 has an Auto ISO feature within the menu. Mine is always off. How about yours? Since the exif doesn't contain that info, I'm betting that has to be it, all the other parameters (except for the jpeg size one I noticed earlier) are the same.

And as for the exif missing ISO information, I notice that about my D70 files as well. What gives? Unless I shoot in RAW, there is no ISO printed in the EXIF. Weird.

dimples453

thanks Dr!

The camera was in manual ISO mode (I always keep it at 200 since I shoot mostly under controlled studio lighting conditions) I've never shot an assignment in auto and I was about to go shoot a subject hence my "test". Now my curiosity is peaked :-)

The only thing I can imagine is that the "Auto" setting overrides the manual ISO....but normally anything over 400 ISO and I can see grain (or digital noise) under close magnification....i don't see that with these two images. Weird.....

Harryb

I'm guessing its the flash. I don't know how Program setting affects the flash setting of the camera. I did notice that with my D100 I got better results with the flash initially when I set it to Program than when I shot manually. That changed as I got to know the camer better

DoctorIt

Harryb wrote:

I'm guessing its the flash. I don't know how Program setting affects the flash setting of the camera. I did notice that with my D100 I got better results with the flash initially when I set it to Program than when I shot manually. That changed as I got to know the camer better

I think you're right.

Now as for the ISO in the EXIF... anyone else here have the issue that it doesn't show up in their D70 exif (unless shooting RAW)? I googled for an answer and couldn't find one.

Seymore

Thngs that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmm...

DoctorIt wrote:

Now as for the ISO in the EXIF... anyone else here have the issue that it doesn't show up in their D70 exif (unless shooting RAW)? I googled for an answer and couldn't find one.

I always get my ISO info in JPG. Never had any issues. But, I'm a PSP8 user. :ivar NOT PS... so, I have no ideas for you to this aspect. Maybe the SW is stripping the data from the EXIF?

DoctorIt

A more careful search of DGrin gave me this:
http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=5005

But even CS2 can't figure it out, since the D70 puts ISO info in a nonstandard place.

I'm still puzzled about the discrepancy between RAW and JPG, however. I posted more on this, including an example (the Smugmug exif looks very different between the 2). If you have more to add on this topic, please do so in the thread linked above.

kygarden

Have you tried Nikon View or Capture to view the EXIF? I don't remember having trouble seeing ISO settings when I had my D70 and I always shot jpg. I don't have it now so I can't test it.

Harryb

The exif for my D100 never shows the ISO of the shot while it shows for my D2X and D200. The ISO also showed for my D2H and my D2Hs. Apparently the D100 and D70 have something in common that blocks the ISO setting from showing in the exif data.

kygarden

Ok, I found an old D70 photo of mine and looked at it with Nikon View. I DO see the ISO setting. Here's a screenshot of the info in my case...




So...it does show if you're using Nikon View or Nikon Capture. By the way, the image I was viewing has been edited so that's why the Image Size in the EXIF data shows the image as being so small (571x828). I really downsized it.

DoctorIt

kygarden wrote:

Ok, I found an old D70 photo of mine and looked at it with Nikon View. I DO see the ISO setting. Here's a screenshot of the info in my case...

It's not so much a question of "is it there", it's more a convenience issue. I'm certainly not going to change my workflow just so I can see ISO settings, its just not that important. No, the real question is why? I have a basic exif viewer that I can get at it with as well, in case I really needed to know. But wouldn't it be so much more convenient if it showed in PS? Better yet, if it showed in the Smugmug exif? (that is the main issue of the other thread)

kygarden

DoctorIt wrote:

It's not so much a question of "is it there", it's more a convenience issue. I'm certainly not going to change my workflow just so I can see ISO settings, its just not that important. No, the real question is why? I have a basic exif viewer that I can get at it with as well, in case I really needed to know. But wouldn't it be so much more convenient if it showed in PS? Better yet, if it showed in the Smugmug exif? (that is the main issue of the other thread)

Oh....I didn't look at the other thread. Oops...

DoctorIt

kygarden wrote:

Oh....I didn't look at the other thread. Oops...

No biggie, and thanks for checking your old files anyway.