Scanning of images, after they purchase the 4x6

JimM

I went to the Youth Football banquet last night. I brought some enlargements of some of the shots I took during the season.

Curious thing happened. One of the players said, "I have that image on my MySpace account." I asked, with the word PROOF across it (thinking he linked to the gallery, which I allow). He said, no my mom bought the print and I scanned it. Okay, just a kid on his MySpace account, right? At least they bought a print. I charge much more for digital downloads than I do for 4x6's because they can be printed multiple times.

Later in the evening, a father came up and mentioned how his wife can make huge enlargements for free at work and this is why they would never order a huge enlargement from me. They just buy the 4x6 and enlarge it. Obviously this is a direct violation of the copyright that is written all over my site. I made a comment (playfully) like "we won't get into the copyright issues with that". Again, at least they are buying prints (I guess). This also explains why the largest print order I have received was an 8x10 throughout the season. In this discussion, my pricing might come up, so I'll share a couple of my prices here:

4x6: $7

5x7: $10

8x10: $18
8x12: $20

11x14: $26
12x18: $30

16x20: $40

20x30: $100
Digital Downloads, $25, $60, $100 (have not sold any, yet)

Now, like I mentioned, I brought images to display at the banquet and I have brought 20x30's in the past to games. I have sold a couple of the 20x30s at the games, and last night I sold a bunch of the 12x18's and the 8x12's I brought to the event. Obviously, when they see their child, that large, with that good of quality, they buy.

One parent came up to me and asked how much is the 12x18. I told her $30, and she was like "WOW, that's it?... I'll take it!".

Just curious how others handle the scanning and reprinting issue? Does it make sense to stop offering the 4x6's entirely? I have heard of many photographers that don't offer them. They consider them snapshot size.

Hopefully we can start a good discussion here. Please share your experiences.

JimM

My belief is most people will buy (and continue to buy) the lowest price item. Whether they scan it in or not is a different issue.

DYancy

It's your work and your property. I would have had no problem telling that particular father "You do realize that is a violation of my copyright, don't you? Why don't you do the right thing and purchase one of whichever size you wish directly from me?"

These parents are setting poor examples for their children and unless you take a stand on the issue, many of them will continue through life thinking that they are doing nothing wrong when they duplicate someone's copyrighted property.

JimM

I do agree with you, but at the same time this is a small town and this was their formal banquet. I was not looking to make a scene. Like I said, I did mention that it was a violation of my copyright.

Art Scott

DYancy wrote:

It's your work and your property. I would have had no problem telling that particular father "You do realize that is a violation of my copyright, don't you? Why don't you do the right thing and purchase one of whichever size you wish directly from me?"

These parents are setting poor examples for their children and unless you take a stand on the issue, many of them will continue through life thinking that they are doing nothing wrong when they duplicate someone's copyrighted property.

I completely agree...over the years I have 100's of people ask me to "copy" other photogs work (Olin Mills...then there were the real LOCAL Pro's) and I flatly refused as I explained it was just like stealing from them.

As for the smallest size available......I would either go 5x7 or 8x10 and make them textured, so any scanning and enlargements are all stippled and don't look good.......Plus make sure you have a nice copyright on every thing you sell.....not jsut a statement on your site.

bham

Well I wouldn't worry about the myspace thing. The images that they allow you to upload to that site are usually small and get displayed at a small size.

When people buy something they feel it is theirs to do with what they want. Thus the scanning and reprinting. But those who realize that in doing that themselves they may spend say 2 hours working on it to save $10. But if they took those 2 hours and worked at their job they could make more $. People are stupid like that sometimes.

You could make 8x10 your smallest size offered or raise the prices of the smaller sizes.

Many times people won't spend a large $ amount for a large print unless they can see the quality and how great they look at the large size. I think just you taking the large prints to the event for those to see shows how good they can look and people will probably order some large prints in the future.

DYancy

JimM wrote:

I do agree with you, but at the same time this is a small town and this was their formal banquet. I was not looking to make a scene. Like I said, I did mention that it was a violation of my copyright.

I understand. To me, once you make the decision to sell your work, then you also need to make a mental comittment to protect your copyright.

For example, I shot a lot of pictures of my step-daughter's middle school soccer games this past Fall. I made many of the photos available to the parents and to the school free of charge and even posted them on SmugMug for those who wanted to order prints. I'm sure I could have made a little money by selling them but it just wasn't worth the hassle to me.

Recently I bumped into a fellow who shoots these games professionally (without any sort of contract with the schools, mind you) and as we got to talking I could tell that he was horrified that I was giving away shots similar to what he was selling. Again, he didn't have a contract with the schools or the events so it was fair game.

I guess I only mention this to illustrate a point: You took the time to go and shoot these photos. Often even a weekend warrior with pro-sumer camera equipment and a knack for photo composition will crank out pictures far superior to what mom and pop are shooting from the sidelines with their P&S cameras.

To those parents, a really good quality photo of their little athlete is both something that they see as beyond their own capabilities of shooting and also something worth money to have. If it's worth that to them, then it should be worth protecting to you.

From now on maybe put a tasteful copyright watermark somewhere on your photos where it's not visually distracting but alerts the buyer to the fact that what they have in their hands isn't something they can copy willy nilly.

JimM

So most of you are adding some kind of copyright or at least a logo or something on say, the bottom corner of the prints? Can someone post and example?

Sam

There isn't any easy answer to this. You live in a small town where over zealous protection will gain you a reputation you don't want, yet if you don't try to protect your rights they will surely disappear.

I think this is a combination of many factors affecting our society today. Intellectual property is stolen so routinely there is almost no penalty. Software, music, photos, patents, to name a few. Individuals, companies, and nations, routinely violate these laws.

With regard to individuals, I think in some cases it’s a mater of ignorance, and denial. In others it’s complete disregard for the law. After all what are you going to do? Lock them up? Ha, ha.

In defense of the ignorant, I have discussed this with many co-workers, and many feel that if they bought a photo of themselves, they own it and can do anything they want with it. After all it’s them darn it all! If you explain copyright to them, many will simply say, “that’s stupid” and do what they want anyway.

It seems that doing the right thing is longer considered a desirable character trait. Look at our elected officials. They can literally lie, cheat and steal on videotape, and be reelected. How with these examples can you expect the average person to even consider doing the right thing if it will cost or inconvenience them?

Now as to a possible approach to your problrm. What if you scanned a few 4X6, and printed them out at say 12X16, or 16X20, and had the same images printed out from your original files to show the quality difference?

Perhaps also letting the parents know how much time, equipment and knowledge is required to get one print ready for delivery would help as well.

This along with an unagressive non judgemental explaination of copyrights.

The final thought I would leave them with is, (not sure how I would word this) the facts have been presented, now the choice is yours.

Sam

JimM

Some very nice thoughts here Sam. Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

I agree and am not really sure there is an answer to the problem as a whole. One thought I had considered is offering the 4x6's for the same price as a 5x7, or both of them for the same price as an 8x10 and maybe lower the price of the 8x10's a tad. This is one thought?

Pricing in this marketplace, as we have seen, is all over the board. One of the parents last night asked my about Smugmug and then told me that one of the parents that shoots her son's hockey team uses SM and she only charges $3 per 4x6. My response was very polite and mentioned that I do not attend these games to watch my child, I spend 9 hours on the football field to photograph their children, only making any money if my shots are so great that they want to purchase them. Investing almost $10K in equipment and spending the time is why I need to charge more than $3. I don't blame the parents for trying to do this on the side. During one set of games, two or three parents were on the sidelines with their DSLR's. I believe those parents actually purchased some of my pictures!!! I can't stop anyone from trying to shoot these games themselves, I can only try to make sure I get the best shots so mine are preferred and worth paying for. I have a belief that being the lowest cost provider just means you will be out of business first.

DougMunn

Relationships & Quality
Just my 10 cents worth.
It is a matter of respect.

Here is the long story, it is a long read.

DISCLAIMER - We are a small company, my wife and myself. I still do outside work to support us as needed - it is growing and we hope to be two people fulltime, all year, this year.

To overcome scanning and copyright problems, you have to be respected as the BEST. It takes blood, sweat, tears and dedication, but the payoff can be good.


My wife (Jerri Munn) specializes in two narrow areas of event photography, Horse Shows and County Fairs in the upper Great Lakes region. Believe it or not, there is plenty of money in both!! www.jerrimunnphoto.com.

In the off season, she concentrates on local event, business and feminine photography (sorry guys) keep the bills paid.

My involvement is helping out in the marketing and technical end.

Over the years, we have found two keys that have helped in our survival.

1. Form relationships.
2. Concentrate on quality.

RELATIONSHIPS
In the show and fair areas, we are members of the statewide fairs & events association, we are the official photographers for one of the largest horse show events in the state. We put on workshops for showing fairs how to do their own photography (sounds crazy doesn't it) and make the most of their limited resources, we provide extensive premimums (usually photo coupons) to horse show organizers to give to exhibitors, we supports their efforts.

Result, we form relationships with the people who make the rules, we book more fairs and horse shows - and we sell more pictures at those events - with fewer copyright problems. These efforts are not without cost (it hurts as we are just a mom and pop operation)! However, in the past year Jerri has gained a huge amount of name recognition and increased respect in her target markets and she is being asked to do larger paid events that we had never dreamed of.

At most stand alone horse shows (people with 50K trailers and haulers) we only print and sell 5x7 and larger prints onsite because of copying problems (they have to pay for those rigs and the horse tack). They can afford larger prints and will buy them without question. At our last 3 day show, I had only one person ask if we printed 4x6 prints and I said no. Without hesitation, she bought a 5x7.

The stronger the relationship that we have with the horse show managemet and the more that we can contribute to the show, the more respect we have with the exhibitors and the fewer problems we have with copying or complaints about prices. The word seems to flow down and the people respect us. Also, we get better sales online after the show.

At fairs, we sell onsite for 15-20% off and we sell 4x6 prints. This allows for some 4-H kids to get prints that they might otherwise not be able to afford. Also, we find that Ag people are more respectful of our work and we have very few problems with copying that we know of. This past year, we have seen our 4x6 sales drop as people upgrade to larger prints. The ones who buy the 4x6 prints just can afford the price difference.

LOCAL RELATIONSHIPS
During the off season, we have to survive, this is where local relationships come into play. This is what has surprised us the most.

Early on in our business plan, we decided to actively give back to the community. On Jerri's website, we have a page soliciting local charities to take advantage of our free services. We will provide up to 2 hours of FREE photography for a local non-profit group or charity on an as available basis. Yes, FREE and they get a CD of images.

We do FREE Halloween pictures for a local church's Trunk or Treat party, Jerri just did a HUGE new groundbreaking ceremony for a high profile arts project. We do Christmas Santa Paws pictures for a local animal shelter, a senior center and a local animal rescue group. Conservation events, you name it, we'll come. We shoot local Chamber of Commerce business to business functions at no charge.

ARE WE NUTS!?!?
Yep!! Nutty as a fox!

We have our truck and plenty of advertising on hand at every event, but more importantly, we are forming solid community relationships with community and corporate leaders who are seeing us and starting to value our work....especially since they constantly see us GIVING.

We are starting to get corporate work and respect (no copying) when we do onsite printing. AND much of our charity work is returning PAID work and reprints.


QUALITY
My wife says that I obsess on lighting and quality.

We have spent over a year testing different lighting/shooting setups at some of our venues to get the best possible pictures. We arrange with the facilities and other shows to go and just TEST our lighting - NO SALES.

We want to start doing local hockey pictures. I'd like to get the contract for NEXT YEAR'S pictures in October 2007. I'm and starting now to do testing in the arena now and we will be do sample action shots and individual pictures for a complete portfolio. For a couple of high profile events, we started last year preparing for events that we want to snag in late 2007.

We also have put in literally hours of studying what other people are doing for the clients that we want. What are the prices, what are the pictures. We make sure that we are better on both fronts, then we start working on building relationships.

Jerri has an incredible eye for horses and feminine photography, I do good with modified tractor pulls. We have both put in extra time and worked hard to develop styles and pictures that other people just can't get.

Neither one of us has problems with spectators who have nicer cameras than ours. We freely give out help and suggestions - along with a business card - because we know that they can't get the the pictures that we do.

Result, they thank us and then end up buying our pictures. It has happened time and time again.

Our push this year is to get people to stop thinking of us as "just a vendor" or "just as a photographer" but as a partner in their experience - whether a big event or just a feminine portrait.

Bottom line, to combat the scanning and copying problems, you need to develop a sense of respect and higher qualtiy among your clients and participants. It isn't a "quick fix" but we have found it to work.

photogmomma

If it were me (and I haven't fully read all the other responses so if I repeat anything, forgive me!) I would:

1. Accept the fact that NOTHING could be done to prevent theft! It's going to happen - the only think you might be able to prevent is as much theft. It sucks, but that's the way it is. You could go after everyone, but it would burn your reputation and you'd never make money!
2. Remove 4x6 as an option completely.
3. Price everything based on theft. Instead of a $10 5x7, make it $15. Or more. That way if it IS stolen, you're at least getting more money
4. Put a watermark on all your photos. Something small and unobtrusive, but there just in case it is copied. At least you'll get free advertising!
5. Put together a 30-45 second speech that explains why your prices are what they are.
   • "As a professional photographer, I take the time to make sure all hte photos are the highest quality possibly by editing fully, investing in the best equipment, staying up to speed on the latest trends and technology, and ensuring you high quality prints through SmugMug. This is also how I make a living! Remember, though, that these are copyrighted photos and you are not allowed to make unauthorized copies. I suggest you look at digital downloads if you'd like to make legal copies." Something nice, without being accusatory. Many people don't realize it's illegal! (I know I didn't when I first had a pro take pictures!)
6. Offer to remove the watermark for larger prints (larger than 8x10 or something) if they desire that.
7. Make sure YOUR photos are better than any photo any parent can take!
8. ETA: I agree with DougMunn - gain that respect and you'll have fewer problems!

You should NOT apologize for your price! You should EXPLAIN it, if necessary. It's taken me a LONG time to feel comfortable with that!

You should EDUCATE your clients about theft! They are so used to stealing songs from large record companies using Limewire and such that they may not realize that they are stealing from YOU and not some huge corporation.

Hope that helps! I don't do this type of photography, but my mother has in the past and she's gotten pretty rooked. But I think it's possible to prevent that in the future!

Good luck! Let us know what works!