Color differences between Photoshop and Smugmug

smugger

Hi,

I have been working on photos in photoshop and get to a point to where I am satisfied with color and sharpness. I then look at it in the Preview function in my Mac or upload to Smugmug or Flickr OR IPhoto and the color is very flat. Is there any explanation for this? Maybe I am not saving it in the right manner? I don't change any of the settings when I save, I save to JPEG in 12 Quality (maximum) in Baseline "Standard" (btw, I don't understand what that means except the word JPEG). Any help would be appreciate, thanks!:dunno

Edit: I found photos where you can see the differences if you want to download the originals. The album is here:

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/2231287

The first photo if you see it in Preview or PS, it looks fine. The second one looks more washed out in Preview, and in PS it looks better (it could probably be better but it was an image I didn't want to spend more time on). On both pictures I had been playing with the color of the sky to make it more blue, was that a factor in the issue with color?

Andy

What browser are you using to view your photos on SmugMug? I'm going to guess, Safari. Am I right?

http://blogs.smugmug.com/great-prints/2005/06/27/mac-browsers-can-you-believe-your-eyes/

smugger

I am using at work Mozilla on a PC. At home Safari on a Mac (tho looking in Mozilla has the same effect) Both computers show the same color effect. I did change to sRGB and I can see the difference in Photoshop now, the faded effect instead of the correction I thought I did.

This is so disappointing, all that time spent and the color correction I did seems almost wiped out.

So what does this mean? Should I put my computer to sRGB color mode instead of using the calibrations on my screen that I did?

Why did it affect some pictures and not others??

Andy

smugger wrote:

So what does this mean? Should I put my computer to sRGB color mode instead of using the calibrations on my screen that I did?

Why did it affect some pictures and not others??

You should final process your images in sRGB, and upload that to SmugMug. What you see in photoshop will match your browser, but don't use Safari to view your photos, I recommend Firefox.

smugger

Thanks Andy, I will try again tonight in sRGB mode, I hope that solves my problems!

In general then do people stick to the sRGB mode so that their pictures come out the same on any computer? If so, then if I use that mode for my images and I decide to order prints, can I expect them to look the way they do on screen (using sRGB)?

I had calibrated my screen b/c I was using some paint preview program that said to get true to color, I would need to recalibrate the screen...

CatOne

smugger wrote:

Thanks Andy, I will try again tonight in sRGB mode, I hope that solves my problems!

In general then do people stick to the sRGB mode so that their pictures come out the same on any computer? If so, then if I use that mode for my images and I decide to order prints, can I expect them to look the way they do on screen (using sRGB)?

I had calibrated my screen b/c I was using some paint preview program that said to get true to color, I would need to recalibrate the screen...

You should use sRGB for all images that are intended for web. I'd go as far as to recommend sRGB for all JPEG images (well, assuming you have a RAW workflow and thus choose JPEG *after* the image comes out of the camera).

I'm sure Andy will be helpful enough to link to the SmugMug article (FAQ) on this very item. I'm too lazy to search.

Sosumi.

DavidTO

CatOne wrote:

Sosumi.

A Mac joke. Love it, and the story behind it.

smugger

sofrustratingtomi
Sosumi, ha ha, i learned something new!

Ok, I changed my screen to sRGB. First imaged tested...looked fine. The second one...same problem. Not as bad as before, but I uploaded this image and it looks a little flatter and the color is a bit different than the original. Can someone go to my gallery and download the original then open it in PS so you know what I am talking about? It is either a screen or photshop issue and not a smugmug issue?

Here is the gallery with the image:

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/2231287/

thank you to anyone who takes time to help me out!

jfriend

Looks same to me

smugger wrote:

Sosumi, ha ha, i learned something new!

Ok, I changed my screen to sRGB. First imaged tested...looked fine. The second one...same problem. Not as bad as before, but I uploaded this image and it looks a little flatter and the color is a bit different than the original. Can someone go to my gallery and download the original then open it in PS so you know what I am talking about? It is either a screen or photshop issue and not a smugmug issue?

Here is the gallery with the image:

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/2231287/

thank you to anyone who takes time to help me out!

When I download the original from that gallery and look at it in Photoshop, it looks exactly the same to me as it does when viewing in Firefox directly from Smugmug, so I guess I don't see the difference you're talking about.

DavidTO

smugger wrote:

Ok, I changed my screen to sRGB.

Are you saving the FILES as sRGB? Are you converting, or assigning the profile? You want to CONVERT.

smugger

DavidTO wrote:

Are you saving the FILES as sRGB? Are you converting, or assigning the profile? You want to CONVERT.

I am using a Powerbook G4. I go to 'display' in preferences on my Mac and I hit the profile sRGB. I guess I am assigning it....?

So I am supposed to save the files as sRBG in PS itself? I need to convert to sRGB withing PS or on my computer as a whole....

DavidTO

smugger wrote:

I am using a Powerbook G4. I go to 'display' in preferences on my Mac and I hit the profile sRGB. I guess I am assigning it....?

So I am supposed to save the files as sRBG in PS itself? I need to convert to sRGB withing PS or on my computer as a whole....

The files should be sRGB. You need to check out your color preferences in PS. Make sure you're working in sRGB. If you have a file in another colorspace, you need to convert that profile to sRGB, NOT assign. Also, you don't need to save at 12, you can save at 10 and save a bunch of space without seeing a noticeable hit in image quality.

smugger

DavidTO wrote:

The files should be sRGB. You need to check out your color preferences in PS. Make sure you're working in sRGB. If you have a file in another colorspace, you need to convert that profile to sRGB, NOT assign. Also, you don't need to save at 12, you can save at 10 and save a bunch of space without seeing a noticeable hit in image quality.

Thank you David, I will try that tonight. That tip is a good one too, I'm all for saving space if it doesn't affect quality!:D

smugger

So I went to color settings in my PS7 and I remember I changed it to adobe (1998) b/c in Kelby's book (older than his CS2 book) he had said to change it, that the color profile of anything else is not good. Why would he write that if the photos cannot then be uploaded to a website with the same color corrections? Is it b/c he was only thinking about how the images would look in print?

I have sRGB, it is followed by some numbers and some letters. So this is the profile I change in color settings? And that means if I select it, I will have CONVERTED my images?

Sorry I'm a bit confused by the convert vs the other thing and also why Kelby said to change it if it messes up the look online.

I'm also delerious so tired from work so apologies if I am unclear, let me know if you want me to clarify anything...

smugger

Ok, I think I'm getting there
No responses today and I'm getting antsy to fix this as I keep working on photos and then the changes don't seem to appear. But, I think I finally found the problem after some searching. I was thinking it was and upload to internet issue so I put it under SmugMug Support but I actually see this discussion in the Finishing Room. As David said, I needed to convert to sRGB but I wasn't sure what he was talking about and why it contradicted what I had read abt it not being a good color profile until I went here.

...And at the bottom I found out why Kelby wanted to use Adobe (1998) instead of another profile.

So for anyone in the future that thinks it's a computer to Smugmug issue (like the beginner PS user that I am), it's actually how you have set up Photoshop (NOT necessarily the monitor, but your color settings on Photoshop)....

Other threads I saw on this:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=34449&highlight=adobe+1998

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=33671&highlight=adobe+1998

Happy Friday!

jfriend

Some more thoughts on AdobeRGB

smugger wrote:

Other threads I saw on this:

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=34449&highlight=adobe+1998

http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=33671&highlight=adobe+1998

Here are a few more postings you might find helpful:

• Summary of the first chapter of Katrin Eismann's masking/compositing book on configuring Photoshop.
• Some advice on assign profile vs. convert to profile.
• Another colorspace thread with some useful advice.

I personally advise people that color management is a complicated issue and requires a fair amount of learning to really understand. Further the consequences for messing it up are bad (you can really mess up your images). Because of this, the best thing to do is to keep it simple where you are the least likely to make mistakes until you've learned enough to fully understand how to do it right when it's more complicated.

The best way to keep it simple and not mess up is to shoot in sRGB and just keep all your images in sRGB. I know this is not always popular advice, but if your main outputs are web or email sharing and online service prints, then your image has to end up in sRGB anyway - it's just a ton simpler to start out in sRGB.

There are those who will probably quickly jump in to describe the occasional and possible advantages to shooting in AdobeRGB. But, in order to really take advantage of that, you HAVE to understand a fair amount about color management and you have to not mess it up. If you do mess it up your result will be an order of magnitude worse than you could have possibly gained. So, keep it simple until you KNOW you know enough to do better.

I personally think it's downright irresponsible for people like Kelby to recommend AdobeRGB to people with limited knowledge about colorspaces, gamut, convert vs. assign, how to fix out of gamut things, soft proofing to see what a target image will look like when printed on a device with different capabilities, workflow to convert before posting, calibrated monitors, etc... Until you fully understand all those tools involved in a color managed workflow, you WILL get better results if you shoot in sRGB and just stay in sRGB. Even when you fully understand all those, if your main outputs are web and online printing services, it may still be desirable to stay in sRGB so you can see what the end image is going to look like all through your workflow.

Andy

jfriend wrote:

I personally think it's downright irresponsible for people like Kelby to recommend AdobeRGB to people with limited knowledge about colorspaces, gamut, convert vs. assign, how to fix out of gamut things, soft proofing to see what a target image will look like when printed on a device with different capabilities, workflow to convert before posting, calibrated monitors, etc...

and it's the gasoline for the majority of flame wars out there on the internets.

photogmomma

Don't know if this is any help for anyone else, but I had a TON of issues with this with Lightroom. And being beta, I couldn't find ANYTHING helping me out with it.... I finally figured out the issue in PS CS2 and changed my colorspace there and VOILA! It fixed Lightroom, too. Very annoying that it wasn't obvious.

It took me a long time (several days) to get my colors to look correct everywhere, but I finally did. Because I had PS CS2, PSE and Lightroom all installed, I had to check all the settings for sRGB everywhere.

Good luck. I know it's not much help for you, but maybe if someone else has the same problem I had, they'll stumble across this thread and it'll help 'em.

smugger

gamma 2.2
Hi,

I meant to write back to this thread I started much much earlier, but in case anyone stumbles on it again, I wanted to add one last bit: Being on a Mac, converting to the sRGB still didn't fix my problem completely. The GAMMA setting on the display had to be changed to whatever my Mac defaulted with to the value of 2.2. So if you read through this thread and are still having problems with your images looking flat on the web then check your gamma setting...

DavidTO

smugger wrote:

Hi,

I meant to write back to this thread I started much much earlier, but in case anyone stumbles on it again, I wanted to add one last bit: Being on a Mac, converting to the sRGB still didn't fix my problem completely. The GAMMA setting on the display had to be changed to whatever my Mac defaulted with to the value of 2.2. So if you read through this thread and are still having problems with your images looking flat on the web then check your gamma setting...

Yep, that's the first thing anybody should do when they set up a Mac...change the gamma to 2.2.

Andy

DavidTO wrote:

Yep, that's the first thing anybody should do when they set up a Mac...change the gamma to 2.2.

And really well explained, here:

http://blogs.smugmug.com/onethumb/2007/02/14/this-is-your-mac-on-drugs/

Baldy

And here: http://arstechnica.com/journals/apple.ars/2007/2/15/7073

dcsastry

My own experience

smugger wrote:

Hi,

I meant to write back to this thread I started much much earlier, but in case anyone stumbles on it again, I wanted to add one last bit: Being on a Mac, converting to the sRGB still didn't fix my problem completely. The GAMMA setting on the display had to be changed to whatever my Mac defaulted with to the value of 2.2. So if you read through this thread and are still having problems with your images looking flat on the web then check your gamma setting...

Hi Smugger,

In my own experience, I found that when you load open images in Photoshop, just select "Don't Color Manage", then change the colors the way you like. After you save and upload, you should see the images with exactly the same colors in your browser.

But, I beleive this will cause you problems if you want to print this image later if you are not adjusting the images for a particular color space.

I don't know much about color space management, but this has worked for me in getting the images on the web with the colors I like. The problem is Photoshop uses color management, whereas most applications (at least in the Windows PC world) do not.

There are a lot of resource out there on color management. I have the 123di e-book which has extensive coverage of the subject, but I have not had the time to work on it yet... :