Extremely unhappy customers... AND

photocat

an extremely unhappy photographer. First of all, I did get paid the sitting fee. No worries there. I thought it was a bit odd though that I did not get any orders. The family was referred to me by a friend of mine, and she showed them my website with my work.
I asked them if they knew what my style was and if that was ok, and the shoot happened. I don't do posed shots, I like the more vibrant life style shoots.
Anyway, it now turns out that they absolutely don't like the photographs, as they are not looking at the camera when I shot them...
PEOPLE, THIS IS LIFESTYLE...
To make a long story short, it totally depressed me and I wonder if I need to go on and try to shoot families... It is very bad for my ego to get comments like that.
If anyone can bring up some time and courage, I would like some feedback on the pictures, are they really that bad???

http://photocat.smugmug.com/gallery/2200229

A very worried photocat :scratch :scratch :scratch :scratch :scratch

Jeffro

photocat wrote:

If anyone can bring up some time and courage, I would like some feedback on the pictures, are they really that bad???

"That bad" is very subjective. No, I don't think they are that bad, but they aren't your traditional family portaits either. Maybe they just don't like style? Or maybe they found that you have link,forums, and blogs turned on, and just copied them to their pc.... Why buy if they can have them all with just a click?

As for some of the shots, I don't care for the tightness of several of the head shots. Too close for my taste. Some of their expressions are blank as well. If they couldn't connect with photo, you won't get a sale.

controld

I found the gallery to be quite enjoyable. I guess the issue was mistaken expectations. I'd much rather have shots like that on my wall at home than the 'sitting on a broomstick' Sears family photo from Christmas.

- Mike

wholenewlight

photocat wrote:

an extremely unhappy photographer. First of all, I did get paid the sitting fee. No worries there. I thought it was a bit odd though that I did not get any orders. The family was referred to me by a friend of mine, and she showed them my website with my work.
I asked them if they knew what my style was and if that was ok, and the shoot happened. I don't do posed shots, I like the more vibrant life style shoots.
Anyway, it now turns out that they absolutely don't like the photographs, as they are not looking at the camera when I shot them...
PEOPLE, THIS IS LIFESTYLE...
To make a long story short, it totally depressed me and I wonder if I need to go on and try to shoot families... It is very bad for my ego to get comments like that.
If anyone can bring up some time and courage, I would like some feedback on the pictures, are they really that bad???

http://photocat.smugmug.com/gallery/2200229

A very worried photocat

Some of them I think are nice - particularly the more candid style outdoor shots (background on the walking ones is a little too prominent). The ones shot against the white background have some problems (for me) - too much contrast, dad is too far away on some (looking like an observer more than a family member).

Overall, nice but obviously they didn't understand what your style was and expected a more posed product.

urbanaries

Photocat....I know all to well what a bad shoot can do to your ego, its tough, especially when you're pleased with the shots (and we are harder on ourselves usually than others are) and a client is definitely NOT.

My overall reaction is there are some great shots in here. Your colors are great, technically very good, and for unposed shots (harder than it looks!) you captured some fine moments. The problem sounds like a creative difference. Maybe talk to the family more about what they like. And in the yoga thread, talking with the clients beforehand more, thinking ahead a bit more might have helped, too. I am not great at this either FWIW.

One concrete suggestion I have is to be more selective in your proofs. Cull down to the best 20 or 25 and pay attention to the shots that really capture the best of your lifestyle 'style.' If there are only 10 great ones, that is better than 30 ok ones and 10 greats lost in the shuffle. I shoot this way too and know there are tons of throwaways...and the more people in the picture, the more throwaways for off expressions, movement, unflattering angles. (example, in the Cameron thread, I shot 120, 50 were good, but I picked the 25 BEST with minimal repeat compositions). But as I was thumbing through your 4 pages of proofs, I kept wanting to delete images, to let the BEST shine through, and by eliminating extras, you also showcase a more deliberate style. I am not sure if this would have changed the result in this case.

DONT GIVE UP. If you wanted to please everyone, you would do "safe" boring posed photography. Remind yourself why you do what you do. If clients see your work and don't get it, or don't like it, but hire you anyway without speaking up about their preferences...that's not a reflection on your talent. There are things you can do to minimize this in the future but don't take it personally.

Just my $0.02! Hope this helps!

Lynne

photocat

Thanks you all... Yep, I can definitely toss more. Bulk shooting is my biggest problem. I tell other people to toss too, grin, I should wipe my own broom in front of my own front garden.

On a more troublesome note, How do I chip off that links forum thing?
I have all my pics right click protected and thought I was safe for taking them off... How silly of me, they can get them by clicking on the forum links...

Sigh, not very smart!
I will now toss some more, and it is again a lesson to make sure that the "artistic differences" are cleaned up before starting the job.

Thanks for the comments, it is really very much appreciated!

asylumxl

i think there are a few gems there, that id hapilly put on my wall. they probably wanted generic portraits, with excessive diffuse glow and softening. if they don't like it, they don't have to use you.

System

there's some I don't like, some ok, but several I think I are very neat photos-

why not call them and ask them why they didn't order? (prices too high, did not like any pics, got 'em off the internet)----well, I guess don't ask them that last one-

I have to wonder if they didn't help themselves to the pics-

anyway, keep at it cat; I think you had some nice photos there-

3rdPlanetPhotography

Boy! I think they are very nice. Some better than others but hey, it's photography. I like your style and you shouldn't kick yourself over this. Some people just can't be pleased.

This has happened to me a couple of time also but I've found that the people who "after the fact" say they don't like them are in fact not wanting to pay for the prints.... They are proably cheap asses and want everything for free. I did a wedding last year. Three months later I get a call from the bride saying that she wasn't happy with the images online. In the same phone call she told me that her mothers monitor doesn't work right and there are only certain colors working on the screen. Well of course they aren't going to look right. When I caught her on it and told her that she can go to the library and use computers there then she said that I should be giving her 4x6 prints of all her photos for free since she was unhappy. She wasn't unhappy. She was an idiot! In the end she didn't order anything and don't they they ever intended to as well.

I'm shocked by the amount of brides that pay for my services then don't order one print... or they order 3 4x6 prints.

I don't kick myself from it because just as I do I get a very happy customer that orders plenty so it all comes down to the family you are working with.

Keep up the good work!

Scott

photocat

gefillmore wrote:

there's some I don't like, some ok, but several I think I are very neat photos-

why not call them and ask them why they didn't order? (prices too high, did not like any pics, got 'em off the internet)----well, I guess don't ask them that last one-

I have to wonder if they didn't help themselves to the pics-

anyway, keep at it cat; I think you had some nice photos there-

After 2 years as smugmugger I finally discovered today that the share link gives people the opportunity to steal them...
DOH!!!!!
I never thought about that one before, feel a bit stupid right now!
Anyway, it is changed, no more charing links for this one here...
Thanks guys for the very constructive feedback. I am listening, looking and learning!!!

3rdPlanetPhotography

I would highly recommend turning on your Watermarks. Then even if they share/steal it... then it will have a big fat watermark across it

I left you some comments on a couple of your photographs

photocat wrote:

After 2 years as smugmugger I finally discovered today that the share link gives people the opportunity to steal them...
DOH!!!!!
I never thought about that one before, feel a bit stupid right now!
Anyway, it is changed, no more charing links for this one here...
Thanks guys for the very constructive feedback. I am listening, looking and learning!!!

Phyxius

You have links on so, I'm assuming it's okay to post some of your shots in here, right?

First off I'll tell you I don't do portraits, so these are solely my uneducated opinions on what I think looks good.

First off I think this is a cute shot. I'm not totally sure of the conversion and the light/shadow on his face/under his chin, but as far as I'm concerned, this is pretty nice.


Again, this is a cute shot of the kid, but I'm not sure if I would buy this one. I can't decide if I like the comp (centered and head cut off) or not. But, I think the expression is wonderful and you did a great job of capturing this young fellow's joie de vivre.


This one of the family is nice, very natural and sweet. It's also one of the few that can print as an 8x10. The ones canted aren't to my taste, but I know I've taken some too. I don't think I'd buy one to put in a frame though.

With the family head shots I like this one http://photocat.smugmug.com/gallery/2200229/2/114472355 , but in many of them the dad is looking at the camera while mom and son aren't or vice versa. It doesn't seem like they were cooperating with you very well, were they? Then, in some like panal065, mom looks like she's getting a mugshut taken and dad is looking down.

I think Panal 077 is a really nice shot of dad and son, both have good expressions, really nice expressions and focus and exposure are spot on the skin tones look a TINY bit yellow, but that could be my monitor here at work.

092 is a great one of mom and son.

Haha, and I love 099, probably wouldn't buy it...but I LOVE it!

I think you did a really nice job with what appears to be hard subjects. The only person who seemed to really be happy getting his picture taken was the son, he seems like he has a great personality! I'm sorry the family didn't like the pictures, I think they're good.

urbanaries

when I look at the images again in christina's post, their clothing really screams at me. They are all VERY dressed up, which definitely implies their expectation of formals. Just another thought.

HiSPL

How exactly can someone steal a picture throught the sharing, links, blogs option? Doesn't it just link back to smugmug and it's right click protection?

photocat

HiSPL wrote:

How exactly can someone steal a picture throught the sharing, links, blogs option? Doesn't it just link back to smugmug and it's right click protection?

nope, you can say "link" and it takes you to a page with a large image, you can drag that large image straight onto your desktop. I was not happy when I found this one out today... But then better late then never!

As for the clothing, their whole house was immaculate. You could eat from the floor... The clothing was indeed very matched to give nice pics. But I (maybe wrongly) assumed that they knew what my style was, especially since I asked if they saw my work, and they told me they had...
There is a military photographer on base that specialises in studio portraits, if they wanted those, she would have been a far better choice then me. I like snapping people as they are, I don't direct them, I shoot like they present themselves in front of me, with only now and then a hint or a little adjustment. As a photographer, I am happy when they forget I am there... That gives the best photographs... (in my little book)

urbanaries

photocat wrote:

nope, you can say "link" and it takes you to a page with a large image, you can drag that large image straight onto your desktop. I was not happy when I found this one out today... But then better late then never!

As for the clothing, their whole house was immaculate. You could eat from the floor... The clothing was indeed very matched to give nice pics. But I (maybe wrongly) assumed that they knew what my style was, especially since I asked if they saw my work, and they told me they had...
There is a military photographer on base that specialises in studio portraits, if they wanted those, she would have been a far better choice then me. I like snapping people as they are, I don't direct them, I shoot like they present themselves in front of me, with only now and then a hint or a little adjustment. As a photographer, I am happy when they forget I am there... That gives the best photographs... (in my little book)

I shoot pretty much the same way! And I've never had a client show up in black high heels.

What I've learned is that being in business for yourself...you really see others' back sides! Some folks I thought had a lot of integrity had NONE when it came to being a (paying) customer. Life lessons, I guess.

Scott_Quier

Well, you don't have links on any more so I have to let you know what I think based on the filenumbers.

These I think are winners, very well done and I would think they would be happy with these, assuming they knew what they were buying when they paid the sitting fee: 2, 3, 11, 37, 74, 83, 92.

But, like was mentioned above, I think their style of dress indicates they weren't there for the same thing you were. Yes, I read your post where you qualified your clients and attempted to manage their expectations. I just think they were not on the same sheet with you.

These I didn't care too much for:
Mom is almost angry looking in these two: 65, 66,

I just don't know what to make of this one: 102

Finally, I don't think you have any reason to even come close to considering quiting. These were very good. Like was mentioned above, cull the list down to the very best of the shoot.

I think you can be proud of these results. Keep on keeping on!

Barefoot and Natural

photocat wrote:

After 2 years as smugmugger I finally discovered today that the share link gives people the opportunity to steal them...
DOH!!!!!
I never thought about that one before, feel a bit stupid right now!
Anyway, it is changed, no more charing links for this one here...
Thanks guys for the very constructive feedback. I am listening, looking and learning!!!

I second this whole statement! I didn't know that either.....I simply just would click orginial (no) Large (no) right-click (yes)

I am glad I read this thread!

I understand too about trying to get families to think out of the box when it comes to their sessions. I personally do not a bunch of "say cheese" photos and they do not either, or they would not have contacted you! They must have seen your work prior. Sometimes parents don't like pictures because they don't like the pictures with them in them. One client I had recently said to me "your camera shows too much" she didn't like her wrinkles...asked me to crop her out and leave the daughter because she loved the rest of the shot. I did a little PS to it and removed some wrinkles the best I could then offered the cropped version too. She bought the PS'ed, the original and the cropped! Go figure!

All I can say.....I think they looked fine, do not give up!

Heather

ChadMaca

HiSPL

Is smugmug aware of this situation, and are/will they do something to change it? I wouldn't mind people linking their photo's to blogs and myspace, but not at the cost of them being downloaded!

BTW, always use a good watermark because even with right click protection there are ways to get around it and grab that photo anyways.

P.S. I liked several of the photos, but I too think you should have culled more. If they see three pics in a row that they don't like it'll leave a bad taste in their mouths when the good ones come along...

dmcreations

Everything can be seen as an opportunity. You could certainly approach the family and ask some questions. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding of expectations before the session. Perhaps there was one afterwards? Did they maybe feel that they shouldn't have to pay a sitting fee, AND then still buy prints. It might help to clarify what exactly put them off.

You could also look at this situation, and say "What could I do differently next time?" Some people's feedback here has been interesting. Maybe the next time you go to a family, and they are dressed up all fancy, maybe take that as a cue that their expectations might not match your own? Or the spotless home/neighborhood - that might tell you that they are hyper-achievers with a certain taste? I think that looking back on it, you might see some other signs that might give you some indications about what their expectations might have been.

All in all, you have some great photos there. Definitely don't give up - use this as a learning experience, and it will only make you better. Good luck!

saurora

Hi Cat...you know I'm a big fan of your work...so don't you dare quit! I think sooner or later we all are going to run into clients who disagree with our vision! I had viewed this gallery a couple of weeks ago and it struck me at the time that it was an awkward shoot for you. What I mean is that the subjects, except for the young boy, look very uncomfortable in front of the camera (especially Dad). They seem to need "direction" and I have a suspicion that is what they were expecting from you. I know you prefer to let your subjects do their "own thing", but not eveyone is comfortable with that and like some fashion models, it might benefit you to keep up some encouraging banter to loosen them up a bit...get them at least laughing. I agree with others comments here that their clothing sent a strong silent signal that they were looking for more formal shots. It effected me that way when I viewed your gallery. I am reading a book right now on group portraiture. The book talks about formal and less formal portraits. The author states that "the family portrait as a whole is only as good as each of the individuals in the portrait." It asks "Could each of these individual portraits stand alone? Each person in a group must look great-- as if they were photographed alone." Over all your images are fun and very appealing as a group, but when I go through them and try to find one shot that is good of everyone...one where each individual could stand alone...it becomes a challenge. The ones where the parents are looking good and smiling, the little boy has his eyes directed downward or is not smiling. Naturally, the parents will want their child to look his most adorable, so if he is not showing those big eyes and that cute smile, that is not the shot they will choose. Don't take it so hard.....take another hard look at the shots as "individual" shots and make your decision on what you want to do. You may come to the conclusion that it is possible they did not get what they were expecting. Perhaps you will offer a re-shoot, which IMO is good for business. You can't always assume that everyone is down-loading your images for free. Perhaps there was a reason they didn't buy. You said they "were not happy they weren't looking at the camera". I love lifestyle photos, but still prefer to have eye contact with my subjects in most of the shots. I would give them the benefit of the doubt. At least next time you won't have your links turned on and you will be using your watermarks...right? One more thing...I would not crop in camera so tightly...leave some room for cropping and framing later. Hope this was helpful! :saurora

kygarden

photocat wrote:

To make a long story short, it totally depressed me and I wonder if I need to go on and try to shoot families... It is very bad for my ego to get comments like that.
A very worried photocat

My personal opinion - You can't please everyone! AND if they looked at your galleries and you explained to them how you work, then it's their problem, not yours. I wouldn't worry about it one bit. Although...I would be open to doing some poses if that's what they insist on....but they need to tell you that - if you've already made it known that you usually don't do posed shots. Just take into account that people paying for photos assume the photographer knows what he/she is doing and they may not think to ask for posed shots during the session - because all along I bet they're sitting there with visions of exactly what they want in their head as if those perfect photos will magically appear 3 days after the shoot!... So taking that into consideration, it might be worth reminding the customer during the shoot that you aren't doing any posed shots and that if they want a couple, they better speak up.

This is one of the reasons I don't like doing many people shots. Especially for money. People complain...but animals, flowers and landscapes do not! Still though, I may dabbled in SOME paid people photos. We'll see. I'm torn between the call of the money (which can be good in portrait work, weddings, etc) and having to deal with the fussy clients. In the end I may stick to my day job and do more side work that follows my profession for extra cash (telecommunications work). Good money in that too! Just more physical work

Anyway...keep up the good work and blow off those goofballs. Hey you warned them right? You know I never can understand people. I've got people all around me that look at my photos and they say wow those are great....and they'll be looking at the photos I'm ready to delete! People have very different tastes. You never can tell what someone will call crap and what someone else calls a work of art. I've seen many "award-winning" photos in several photo contests...and I sit there scratching my head...he got first prize for THAT! - you've got to be kidding me. My personal preference is to take advice from pros, but then to promptly ignore it where my instinct tells me to. I take you back to my "People have very different tastes" comment above. Yes, you have to have SOME standards...but I think you will be the best judge in what works for you.

Ok that sort of turned into a rant or something on my part.... Good luck to you

purified

controld wrote:

I found the gallery to be quite enjoyable. I guess the issue was mistaken expectations. I'd much rather have shots like that on my wall at home than the 'sitting on a broomstick' Sears family photo from Christmas.

- Mike

I agree. The photos have much more life in them when they aren't posed. If they wanted boring family portraits with fake smiles and backgrounds then the problem lies with them, not you. You made it clear what style they would recieve, and they must not have understood. Don't feel badly. I think some of your photographs are very good. Others could use a bit of post-processing, but that's in technical issues, not with the initial photograph.

gus

They are great PC ...honestly. If i didnt like them i woud say so believe me. As mentioned you caught them as a family. Dont worry about it seriously

I had someone order a heap of photos before xmas then i didnt hear from them for weeks. They then sent me an email saying they didnt like them so i deleted them...now they want them & have no recall about sending me the email saying they didnt want them...too bad 'eh ? Im not into playing games with people. I wish i had kept the email but there was no mistake as it was the only order i had for 2 odd months.

Some people cannot be pleased.

urbanaries

saurora wrote:

Hi Cat...you know I'm a big fan of your work...so don't you dare quit! I think sooner or later we all are going to run into clients who disagree with our vision! I had viewed this gallery a couple of weeks ago and it struck me at the time that it was an awkward shoot for you. What I mean is that the subjects, except for the young boy, look very uncomfortable in front of the camera (especially Dad). They seem to need "direction" and I have a suspicion that is what they were expecting from you. I know you prefer to let your subjects do their "own thing", but not eveyone is comfortable with that and like some fashion models, it might benefit you to keep up some encouraging banter to loosen them up a bit...get them at least laughing. I agree with others comments here that their clothing sent a strong silent signal that they were looking for more formal shots. It effected me that way when I viewed your gallery. I am reading a book right now on group portraiture. The book talks about formal and less formal portraits. The author states that "the family portrait as a whole is only as good as each of the individuals in the portrait." It asks "Could each of these individual portraits stand alone? Each person in a group must look great-- as if they were photographed alone." Over all your images are fun and very appealing as a group, but when I go through them and try to find one shot that is good of everyone...one where each individual could stand alone...it becomes a challenge. The ones where the parents are looking good and smiling, the little boy has his eyes directed downward or is not smiling. Naturally, the parents will want their child to look his most adorable, so if he is not showing those big eyes and that cute smile, that is not the shot they will choose. Don't take it so hard.....take another hard look at the shots as "individual" shots and make your decision on what you want to do. You may come to the conclusion that it is possible they did not get what they were expecting. Perhaps you will offer a re-shoot, which IMO is good for business. You can't always assume that everyone is down-loading your images for free. Perhaps there was a reason they didn't buy. You said they "were not happy they weren't looking at the camera". I love lifestyle photos, but still prefer to have eye contact with my subjects in most of the shots. I would give them the benefit of the doubt. At least next time you won't have your links turned on and you will be using your watermarks...right? One more thing...I would not crop in camera so tightly...leave some room for cropping and framing later. Hope this was helpful! :saurora

If I could rate someone else's response, I'd say Saurora gave you some 5 star advice. If you take no one else's advice to heart....print this one out and keep it in your camera bag.

Well said, Saurora!!!

Scott_Quier

saurora wrote:

Hi Cat...you know I'm a big fan of your work...so don't you dare quit! I think sooner or later we all are going to run into clients who disagree with our vision! I had viewed this gallery a couple of weeks ago and it struck me at the time that it was an awkward shoot for you. What I mean is that the subjects, except for the young boy, look very uncomfortable in front of the camera (especially Dad). They seem to need "direction" and I have a suspicion that is what they were expecting from you. I know you prefer to let your subjects do their "own thing", but not eveyone is comfortable with that and like some fashion models, it might benefit you to keep up some encouraging banter to loosen them up a bit...get them at least laughing. I agree with others comments here that their clothing sent a strong silent signal that they were looking for more formal shots. It effected me that way when I viewed your gallery. I am reading a book right now on group portraiture. The book talks about formal and less formal portraits. The author states that "the family portrait as a whole is only as good as each of the individuals in the portrait." It asks "Could each of these individual portraits stand alone? Each person in a group must look great-- as if they were photographed alone." Over all your images are fun and very appealing as a group, but when I go through them and try to find one shot that is good of everyone...one where each individual could stand alone...it becomes a challenge. The ones where the parents are looking good and smiling, the little boy has his eyes directed downward or is not smiling. Naturally, the parents will want their child to look his most adorable, so if he is not showing those big eyes and that cute smile, that is not the shot they will choose. Don't take it so hard.....take another hard look at the shots as "individual" shots and make your decision on what you want to do. You may come to the conclusion that it is possible they did not get what they were expecting. Perhaps you will offer a re-shoot, which IMO is good for business. You can't always assume that everyone is down-loading your images for free. Perhaps there was a reason they didn't buy. You said they "were not happy they weren't looking at the camera". I love lifestyle photos, but still prefer to have eye contact with my subjects in most of the shots. I would give them the benefit of the doubt. At least next time you won't have your links turned on and you will be using your watermarks...right? One more thing...I would not crop in camera so tightly...leave some room for cropping and framing later. Hope this was helpful! :saurora

Wow! When did you get so smart!!:D That is some steller advise!

What's the title/ISBN of the book to which you are referring? Might be real interesting for those less smart!

DavidTO

Scott_Quier wrote:

Wow! When did you get so smart!!:D That is some steller advise!

What's the title/ISBN of the book to which you are referring? Might be real interesting for those less smart!

Yes, I want it, too. Plus, a review for our book review section would be awesome! If you're willing to write one up, just PM it to me and I'll make it a real, live book review.

saurora

I'll write a review on it in a few days.....was planning on doing that anyway!!!

Scott_Quier

saurora wrote:

I'll write a review on it in a few days.....was planning on doing that anyway!!!

And the name of the book is....?

saurora

Sorry Scott!

The Best of
FAMILY PORTRAIT PHOTOGRAPHY
Professional Techniques and Images

ISBN: 1-58428-172-3

I pm'd a book review to David last night. I want to stress that this is a good starting point for beginners in particular. Touches upon everything you can think of, but it would be up to the reader to research and delve further if they were not already up on certain aspects. You can view the inside of the book on Amazon, to see if it's anything you would be interested in.