lighting problems

Seamus

Hi folks,

I read the 101 thread yesterday and got a lot of useful hints. I rtfm'd the manual for the camera ( 20d). I used the histogram when shooting today and set wb to cloudy. Light was cloudy with short bursts of sunshine. I have two photos here that I would like help with please.

1:



Date Taken:2005-01-10 10:03:56Date Digitized:2005-01-10 10:03:56Date Modified:2005-01-10 10:03:56Make:CanonModel: Canon EOS 20D Size: 2544x1696 Bytes: 958656 Aperture: f/5.6 ISO: 800 Focal Length: 400mm (guess: 424mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 0.0004s (1/2500)Flash:Flash did not fire, compulsory flash modeExposure Program:Shutter priorityExposure Bias:0White Balance:manualColorSpace:sRGB

I ran the photo through the quick fix settings in elements 2




I had a sigma 70-200 with a 2x extender. What did I do wrong in the original photo? and does the "fixed" photo look realistic?

the gallery is here:

http://seamus.smugmug.com/gallery/352405/1/14001003


Thanks,,

Shay.

wxwax

Personally, I wouldn't use the various white balance settings. I'd either put it on Auto, or manually white balance with a grey card or white card. Since I'm lazy, I leave it on Auto, shoot in RAW, and fix it with the software. I should have thought that the Auto white balance would be perfectly fine for an outdoors scene like that. In my experience, Auto only struggles with artifical light.

The fixed version has a blown out area on the torso. And it's too contrasty, I reckon.

Are you shooting in RAW?

lynnma

shay wrote:

Hi folks,

I read the 101 thread yesterday and got a lot of useful hints. I rtfm'd the manual for the camera ( 20d). I used the histogram when shooting today and set wb to cloudy. Light was cloudy with short bursts of sunshine. I have two photos here that I would like help with please.

1:



Date Taken:2005-01-10 10:03:56Date Digitized:2005-01-10 10:03:56Date Modified:2005-01-10 10:03:56Make:CanonModel: Canon EOS 20D Size: 2544x1696 Bytes: 958656 Aperture: f/5.6 ISO: 800 Focal Length: 400mm (guess: 424mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 0.0004s (1/2500)Flash:Flash did not fire, compulsory flash modeExposure Program:Shutter priorityExposure Bias:0White Balance:manualColorSpace:sRGB

I ran the photo through the quick fix settings in elements 2




I had a sigma 70-200 with a 2x extender. What did I do wrong in the original photo? and does the "fixed" photo look realistic?

Thanks,,

Shay.

Hi Shay.. I don't know that much, I'm still struggling with white balance etc but it looks to me like setting the wb to cloudy caused the "too warm" tinge. When ever I want something to look warmer I use cloudy or shade but I MUST read the manual (as Andy tells me) and set it manually for snow.. others will have more comments and I'll be interested to hear them. I liket he color corrected shot more.
Lynn

lynnma

wxwax wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't use the various white balance settings. I'd either put it on Auto, or manually white balance with a grey card or white card. Since I'm lazy, I leave it on Auto, shoot in RAW, and fix it with the software. I should have thought that the Auto white balance would be perfectly fine for an outdoors scene like that. In my experience, Auto only struggles with artifical light.

The fixed version has a blown out area on the torso. And it's too contrasty, I reckon.

Are you shooting in RAW?

Really Sid??? so why am I obsessing about WB... Andy told me to rtfm and custom set it.. hmmm... I'm lazy too.

Harryb

Hi Shay,

I don't shoot with the 20D or use Elements but I'll give it a try.

The two basic problems here are that the main subject is overexposed (some parts of the bird are blown out) and the wb is off. I've found lately that the two elements that you want to nail on a shot are exposure and wb.

In this shot you have a white bird against a darker background. The exif data shows that you made no adjustment in your exposure. I'm assuming that you weren't spot metering on this pic. W/O adjusting the ev there's no way that matrix or center weighted metering will nail this exposure. I probably would have set my camera to ev -0.7 on this pic. You are a 1/2 to 2/3rds of a stop over exposed.

The exif shows that you used a manual wb setting not cloudy so that may be the source of the wb problem. The cloudy setting should have nailed it from your description of the lighting. When my wb is off I normally fix it by setting a grey point in my software. I will find a spot in the pic that reads a value of 128 and use that as my grey point. That normally solves most of my wb probelms. Its easier to fix if you shoot in RAW.

Harry

lynnma

Harryb wrote:

Hi Shay,

I don't shoot with the 20D or use Elements but I'll give it a try.

The two basic problems here are that the main subject is overexposed (some parts of the bird are blown out) and the wb is off. I've found lately that the two elements that you want to nail on a shot are exposure and wb.

In this shot you have a white bird against a darker background. The exif data shows that you made no adjustment in your exposure. I'm assuming that you weren't spot metering on this pic. W/O adjusting the ev there's no way that matrix or center weighted metering will nail this exposure. I probably would have set my camera to ev -0.7 on this pic. You are a 1/2 to 2/3rds of a stop over exposed.

The exif shows that you used a manual wb setting not cloudy so that may be the source of the wb problem. The cloudy setting should have nailed it from your description of the lighting. When my wb is off I normally fix it by setting a grey point in my software. I will find a spot in the pic that reads a value of 128 and use that as my grey point. That normally solves most of my wb probelms. Its easier to fix if you shoot in RAW.

Harry

Harry I know this is for Shay but very interesting.. thanks I'm printing ...
Lynn

Seamus

metering mode

Harryb wrote:

Hi Shay,

I don't shoot with the 20D or use Elements but I'll give it a try.

The two basic problems here are that the main subject is overexposed (some parts of the bird are blown out) and the wb is off. I've found lately that the two elements that you want to nail on a shot are exposure and wb.

In this shot you have a white bird against a darker background. The exif data shows that you made no adjustment in your exposure. I'm assuming that you weren't spot metering on this pic. W/O adjusting the ev there's no way that matrix or center weighted metering will nail this exposure. I probably would have set my camera to ev -0.7 on this pic. You are a 1/2 to 2/3rds of a stop over exposed.

The exif shows that you used a manual wb setting not cloudy so that may be the source of the wb problem. The cloudy setting should have nailed it from your description of the lighting. When my wb is off I normally fix it by setting a grey point in my software. I will find a spot in the pic that reads a value of 128 and use that as my grey point. That normally solves most of my wb probelms. Its easier to fix if you shoot in RAW.

Harry

Sid, Lynn and Harry,

thanks for your help. ( and nice to see you back on your feet Harry ) I checked the settings on the camera and i had the metering mode set on "centreweight average" instead of "evaluative metering".


I presume this is what blew the exposure on the swan and put such a huge spike in the histogram?

"When my wb is off I normally fix it by setting a grey point in my software. I will find a spot in the pic that reads a value of 128 and use that as my grey point"

I'm afraid you lost me here. You wouldn't have a dummies guide for doing this?

Thanks for your help folks,

Shay.

wxwax

shay wrote:

"When my wb is off I normally fix it by setting a grey point in my software. I will find a spot in the pic that reads a value of 128 and use that as my grey point"

I'm afraid you lost me here. You wouldn't have a dummies guide for doing this?
Shay.

Yeah, for me too!

gubbs

shay wrote:

Sid, Lynn and Harry,

thanks for your help. ( and nice to see you back on your feet Harry ) I checked the settings on the camera and i had the metering mode set on "centreweight average" instead of "evaluative metering".


I presume this is what blew the exposure on the swan and put such a huge spike in the histogram?

"When my wb is off I normally fix it by setting a grey point in my software. I will find a spot in the pic that reads a value of 128 and use that as my grey point"

I'm afraid you lost me here. You wouldn't have a dummies guide for doing this?

Thanks for your help folks,

Shay.

You can do this in curves with the middle eyedropper on the bottom right of the pop up box, (the left does the shadows, the right one is for the highlights) but I couldn't tell you a quick way of finding a grey point that reads 128.

Having said that, Elements doesn't have curves so that's no help at all. Shay would you mind if I have a go at it when I get home tonight??

Seamus

gubbs wrote:

You can do this in curves with the middle eyedropper on the bottom right of the pop up box, (the left does the shadows, the right one is for the highlights) but I couldn't tell you a quick way of finding a grey point that reads 128.

Having said that, Elements doesn't have curves so that's no help at all. Shay would you mind if I have a go at it when I get home tonight??

Please do, the original pics are here.

http://seamus.smugmug.com/gallery/352405/1/14001003

Shay.

Harryb

white balance
Hey Shay

thanks for your help. ( and nice to see you back on your feet Harry ) I checked the settings on the camera and i had the metering mode set on "centreweight average" instead of "evaluative metering".


I presume this is what blew the exposure on the swan and put such a huge spike in the histogram?

"When my wb is off I normally fix it by setting a grey point in my software. I will find a spot in the pic that reads a value of 128 and use that as my grey point"

I'm afraid you lost me here. You wouldn't have a dummies guide for doing this?

Thanks for your help folks,

Shay.[/QUOTE]It can get technical. Lets talk about the histogram and that may help us here.

In the attached image from my Nikon Capture software you can see the histogram has 3 anchor points - on the left is the black point which has a value of 0 - on the far right is the white point which has a value of 255 - the middle point is the grey point has a value of 128.

I used a point in the heron's feathers to establish a grey point because it had a value of 128. Once the point is set it will adjust all the other RGB (red, green, blue) channels based on that setting. This will correct most minor wb problems and give a more accurate rendition of the scene.

Harry

Seamus

Harry, thanks for taking the time with such a comprehensive answer.

Harryb wrote:

Hey Shay

QUOTE]It can get technical. Lets talk about the histogram and that may help us here.

In the attached image from my Nikon Capture software you can see the histogram has 3 anchor points - on the left is the black point which has a value of 0 - on the far right is the white point which has a value of 255 - the middle point is the grey point has a value of 128.

I used a point in the heron's feathers to establish a grey point because it had a value of 128. Once the point is set it will adjust all the other RGB (red, green, blue) channels based on that setting. This will correct most minor wb problems and give a more accurate rendition of the scene.

Harry

I have elements 3 on order. It should arrive this week. I also ordered Kelby's book on elements 3 so I will have a lot of reading to do

I'm reluctant to shoot in Raw before I get the basics on setting up the camera with correct aperture, iso, exposure, etc right. I am going to get a grey card tomorrow and set up the wb before I shoot.

Again thanks for your help

Shay.

gubbs

shay wrote:

Please do, the original pics are here.

http://seamus.smugmug.com/gallery/352405/1/14001003

Shay.

Shay here we go, I'm working my way through Scott Kelby's book at the moment too. I did this using PS CS curves. It's still not right, I'll keep playing and post if I come up with anything better.

Swans are tough to expose correctly, I've failed many times (ask Rutt). I think this shot would have been even better with more dof too, so that all the water drops were sharp. looking at the settings it looks like there wasn't enough light available.

Seamus

gubbs wrote:

Shay here we go, I'm working my way through Scott Kelby's book at the moment too. I did this using PS CS curves. It's still not right, I'll keep playing and post if I come up with anything better.

Swans are tough to expose correctly, I've failed many times (ask Rutt). I think this shot would have been even better with more dof too, so that all the water drops were sharp. looking at the settings it looks like there wasn't enough light available.

That is a huge improvement, the colours look natural and balanced. Thanks.

Shay.