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Hobbyist Photographer Ethical Dilemma
aktse
Registered Users Posts: 1,928 Major grins
There is a local girl’s hockey tournament is going on this weekend with kids from the US and Canada; some daughters of my friend were playing and I thought that I could finally get some shots of them. At this tourney, there is professional video company who records all the games and sells the dvds. There is also a professional photography company that prints the photos on-site and offers them to be purchase on-line. They have numerous monitors set up and a printing station. I believe that these people paid to be the official media people of this tournament.
The photography company clearly posts that they will most likely be taking picture during the first and second period. I believe they write this since there are four rinks at this location with four games played at the same time, and there are only two people running around shooting. The parents told me that they will mostly ask me to leave if I went around the rink; they might also do so if I was in the stands since I stand out with my lens. However, it was getting late and people were very tired and they thought I should be safe is I shot from the stands during the first period and got up next to the board during the second period and third.
I did as the parents suggested… shot from the stands and then got up and moved around the boards; I never saw the pro while I was shooting. I started saying my good-byes at the beginning of the third period, and saw this guy run in. The professional photographer arrived! He shoots with a similar lens setup (rebel xt, 70-200mm f/4), but has four external wireless strobe flashes for each rink and shoots from a ladder so that he doesn’t have to deal with the glass.
With all the discussions on dgrin, etc. I have learned that I should never undercut the professional photographer. I shoot hockey photos because I play and love the game. I bought my setup (20D, 70-200mm f/2.8 IS, 135mm f/2.0, etc) specifically for hockey since people at adult rec leagues rarely have pictures of themselves. If I’m at a game, and I’m not playing, you will normally find me shooting something. I never planned on getting paid for it (and still give away a some frames for free), but a few months ago, teams convinced me to shoot specific games and paid me to do so! I do very little post processing and provide them the digital files. I charge for my time and energy, and to help pay for hosting costs, insurance and a bit for my new lens fund. I don’t advertise, but have been hired to shoot about one game a season and individuals have contacted me to buy specific photos just by word of month. I do not have a smugmug pro account since this is just a hobby for me. I'm perfectly happy if I don't sell a single thing... :rolleyes
My dilemma:
What shall I do with my photos of the hockey game at the tourney? Give them for free? Charge for them? What does a hobbyist do? :dunno I'm planning on sharing the link with my friend with the daughters playing, and the link will be forwarded to the team and I believe that they will want some prints, digital files, etc. My rate has been about $20-$25 a person if I shoot the entire game ($300-$500 per game for all digital files), and about $5-$10 for an individual file. I've been told that my rates are too cheap; I just want people to have pictures of themselves when they're playing....
From talking to the parents, I believe the pro is charging $8-$15 for print depending on size and about $15-$20 for the file.
Sample shots (uncropped, bulk one-botton adjustment only)
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The photography company clearly posts that they will most likely be taking picture during the first and second period. I believe they write this since there are four rinks at this location with four games played at the same time, and there are only two people running around shooting. The parents told me that they will mostly ask me to leave if I went around the rink; they might also do so if I was in the stands since I stand out with my lens. However, it was getting late and people were very tired and they thought I should be safe is I shot from the stands during the first period and got up next to the board during the second period and third.
I did as the parents suggested… shot from the stands and then got up and moved around the boards; I never saw the pro while I was shooting. I started saying my good-byes at the beginning of the third period, and saw this guy run in. The professional photographer arrived! He shoots with a similar lens setup (rebel xt, 70-200mm f/4), but has four external wireless strobe flashes for each rink and shoots from a ladder so that he doesn’t have to deal with the glass.
With all the discussions on dgrin, etc. I have learned that I should never undercut the professional photographer. I shoot hockey photos because I play and love the game. I bought my setup (20D, 70-200mm f/2.8 IS, 135mm f/2.0, etc) specifically for hockey since people at adult rec leagues rarely have pictures of themselves. If I’m at a game, and I’m not playing, you will normally find me shooting something. I never planned on getting paid for it (and still give away a some frames for free), but a few months ago, teams convinced me to shoot specific games and paid me to do so! I do very little post processing and provide them the digital files. I charge for my time and energy, and to help pay for hosting costs, insurance and a bit for my new lens fund. I don’t advertise, but have been hired to shoot about one game a season and individuals have contacted me to buy specific photos just by word of month. I do not have a smugmug pro account since this is just a hobby for me. I'm perfectly happy if I don't sell a single thing... :rolleyes
My dilemma:
What shall I do with my photos of the hockey game at the tourney? Give them for free? Charge for them? What does a hobbyist do? :dunno I'm planning on sharing the link with my friend with the daughters playing, and the link will be forwarded to the team and I believe that they will want some prints, digital files, etc. My rate has been about $20-$25 a person if I shoot the entire game ($300-$500 per game for all digital files), and about $5-$10 for an individual file. I've been told that my rates are too cheap; I just want people to have pictures of themselves when they're playing....
From talking to the parents, I believe the pro is charging $8-$15 for print depending on size and about $15-$20 for the file.
Sample shots (uncropped, bulk one-botton adjustment only)
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Comments
Ok this is just my 2 cents here. So feel free to totaly disregard it if you want.
If you love doing this and never have any intention of turning into more than a hobbey I would charge the rates you listed ($5-$10 a file). However if you want to go into this as a business I would suggest you set your prices now (thats what I have read any way). And really if it is just a hobbey and you sell 10 files because they are only $8 but you would have only sold 5 if they were $15 a piece you really make more money selling them at $8. A lot of that depends on your market and what the parents are willing to pay. They may say $8 is cheap but they buy a lot of them then. But you may not hear they are cheap at $15 but then you could have a lot of missed sales because of it. Hope that helps some and just doesn't confuse you more
To be heard you must be seen!
Thanks for the reply.
I charge mainly to stop people from constantly asking me to come to specific games, for digital photos, etc. for free. Before I locked originals, people would download about 6 gig of files for *one* game, and this was for adult hockey with very few people knowing about the gallery. If I'm there for the entire game, I shoot about 500 frames and I think I get about 60%-80% that are decent (see samples in the first posting). I post nearly everything since shots that are not perfect can tell skaters things like positioning, technique, etc. I use them as a learning tool with my team when I'm too sick to play with them.
Before I set a price and locked the originals, a few people would then come up and expect me to come to their games, etc. for free. When I turned them down since I was busy, they kept bugging me to do so until I had the time to shoot their game. I felt as if I was obligated to go. And if I turned a team down, I would need a good reason. It didn't happen very often (less than five times), but I felt that I was pushed into a corner. Another hockey player got mad at me that I charged a price and basically told me that I wasn't good enough to charge and that he could do better with his point and shoot camera. But I kept on taking photos...
I still freely give the files, and give away many, even to those that inquire about buying. I just want to weed out the free-loaders, especially since I'm paying for the hosting/bandwidth/equipment. I host the hockey photos that I share on a separate site (not smugmug, but I still love smugmug) since I wanted them separate from my personal photots.
In this case, the clients are kids with parents rather than out of shape weekend warriors. Parents want pictures! And hockey isn't a cheap sport. Some of the parents have a lot of money while others are just trying to best to come up with the thousdand of dollars to let their kids play.
I just don't want to step on the toes of the pros.... I didn't see any signs against other photographers, but the parents were acting as if there was some tights rules in place.
P.S. - I would continue to keep charging for the product. You have time, money, and equipment invested in this. Nothing in this world is free and people either know this or need to learn it.
P.P.S. - I think your shots are worth the money you are charging and maybe a bit more. Very well done and, BTW, no P&S is going to do better than what you have posted - but you already knew this!
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Generally you will not see signs. Last time I went to Wal-Mart I didn't see any signs prohibiting me from setting up a booth and selling products inside their store but common sense tells me I can't. (sorry for the SA answer)
If your at an event which has a contract/official photographer you should not sell your shots. It's fine to shoot your family etc.. but not others to sell. Why? Well, these events are generally profit making ventures for the league or the promoter. In either case the official/contract photographers are paying the promoter for the rights to shoot the event. You shooting then selling without the overhead cost is just not ethical in my opinion. Your in their store, check with them before you sell.
Also, If your shooting and direct selling you need to have a business license and collect and remit State/City/County sells tax at a minimum. Again, sorry if this is harsh but it kinda gripes me that I buy my licenses, collect and remit taxes and bid for contracts and have to compete with no-overhead wildcat shooters. If you want to shoot-for-profit go for it. Just do it right.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Just to be the devils advocate here...
Walmart does have a sign up (at least at our walmart) that says something like no solitation or sales without prior management approval.
Unless posted (also check your ticket stub) that you can't take photos then I really don't see a problem with taking them. I am a professional photographer and I have had to go through all the same costs as you have. It sucks, but I wanted to take my photography to the next level. Prior to that I would take shots and just sell them as people had interest.
The pro shouldn't even be worried about it, I wouldn't. It sounds like he doesn't even photograph the whole game. If you take photos for a team as a request then technically you are the team photographer (which it sounds like the poster is). That would be irrespective of any venue photographer.
If the pros shots are that much better they will sell more. Overall his sales will always be greater as he advertises and promotes himself.
I guess all in all I just don't really agree with what you are saying here.
From you site it appears your a portrait/wedding photog. Do you shoot sporting events? Sports is different in that it is total speculation - no upfront sitting/show-up fees. Also don't have the pressure of blowing the wedding kiss shot
Just curious - if all teams have photographers and they "SELL" to all their parents would that bother you if your the official event photographer?
I don't have a problem with competition just needs to be fair competition. It's hard to compete if I'm having to pay insurance, purchase State/County/City business licenses, pay income tax and charge, collect and remit sales tax and on top of that pay the venue for the rights to shoot the event. Then I'm expected to compete with someone paying nothing?
I can see both sides - I'm not as much of a harda$$ as I'm sounding but it does get aggravating when parents think I'm making a killing when they compare my prices to the illegal shooters. All the legal crap is a PITA, guess I'm just jealous.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
What if I gave everything away for free? Would that be ethical? Is that fair competition? Would the pro approve and would that be the correct thing to do? The parents would love the photos and instead of money, I think they'll give me gifts (beer, etc) just because they would be so very thankful. I was already planning on giving my friend all the originals by burning it on a dvd (about 3 gigs of files). Could I just charge everyone else for my bandwidth? Would that work?
I understand about the pro's paying the promoter for the right to be there. They work very hard at their jobs and it's a tough living. I did everything in my power to stay out of their way (shooting from the stands at first) and never even touched his ladder. I also didn't shot any other games and I only shot 2/3s of one; the pro wasn't even at the game when I was shooting. I have not contacted the pro's yet. Do I have to do so?
And if I wasn't concern about this issue, I would not have raised it here. I have sent out the gallery link (originals disabled), but no one has visited it yet since they're still at the rink. I made certain that the link was sent out until after the tourney was over (tonight). I think most people tend to buy the prints right on the spot during the tourney from the pro. I need to figure out what I'm going to do over the next few days.... Some of the parents saw me there, but most of them were focused on the game. People were not expecting photos from me, and I think they'll be surprised at the images that I captured since they don't know my work.
As for taxes, license, etc. I have a business license for my city since I sell craft stuff every once in a while (not required, but paid and filled work anyways to make me feel better). As for taxes, according to my accountant, my photography is consider a hobby and I don't make enough to file income taxes on it yet. As for sales tax, she compared my hobby to those selling things at the swap meet or flea market about three times a year. If I do more, then I wouldn't be a hobbyist anymore. And I don't plan on doing this as a professional. I don't want to consider this work... It's just something that I do for fun and people seem to like my work.
If anyone has any more opinions, let me know... it really helps. They are many hobbyist these days running around with pro equipment, etc, especially at their kids sporting events.
my piddly .000002Kc woth...is above
and make sure you're cool with him first. The offices are upstairs
between the North and Center rinks. I suggest this because you're
talking about making money off of the teams that play at the rink
and you'd be in a much better position if you have permission from
the teams and from management.
There's some great advice here. Best of luck.
I don't see harm in you using your relationship to letting the team know these photos exist and selling them on SM. Though I will say that hockey is different than football (what I normally shoot) in that the football games are played in a public venue, the hockey games could be played in a privately owned venue in which case there could be a reasonable expectation for privacy and thus making a profit selling the images without prior consent could be an issue. The pro probably had prior consent signed by the coaches of the teams playing in the tournament (as part of the small print in the contract).
Glass: >Sigma 17-35mm,f2.8-4 DG >Tamron 28-75mm,f2.8 >Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro >Canon 70-200mm,f2.8L IS >Canon 200mm,f2.8L
Flash: >550EX >Sigma EF-500 DG Super >studio strobes
Sites: Jim Mitte Photography - Livingston Sports Photos - Brighton Football Photos
I strongly disagree with this advice. Art hit it on the head - you need to have some scruples. The right thing to do is contact the tournament director and find out what contract the tournament photographer had. If they had an exclusive contract, the right thing to do is honor that contract. Don't sell, or even give away your images. In my opinion, the only acceptable alternative is your own family - they shouldn't be able to restrict you from photographing them. However, they can restrict where you can shoot FROM.
If the photographer did NOT have an exclusive contract then that's his fault and he will learn a hard earned lesson. But if he does, the right thing to do is honor it. If you want to shoot as a hobbyist or even as a pro, contact the administrator of the event and get approval - this way you don't waste your time showing up (or bringing your gear) if there is a paid event photographer. Use the photos you took as a resume - use them as samples to show the quality of your work. But don't sell or give them away in respect for the other pro (again assuming he had an exclusive contract).
Some day you may be the pro and you'll want other hobbyists to respect your contracts.
with the city which gives the league control (for example; they could ask
you to leave the field and if you refuse, you may be subject to arrest) over
the venue for the period specified. This contract essentially makes the field
private for the duration.
I think when you go beyond friends and your expecting gifts in return then you are on less solid ground.
I would hope you wouldn't use their equipment.
Just reading this paragraph sound like your working a business
Not sure but I think a $500.00 sell from an advertised "hobby" may convert it into a business or at least require taxing.
I struggled with the same issues, and still do, as you are looking at now. Photography is not my main source if income (I would starve to death if it was). I started out like most everyone else shooting my kids, then progress to shooting some friends kids and giving the shots away. It was fun. The natural progression was to start charging to cover expenses and improve gear. Then I started looking at the bigger picture and what I was doing was competing with legitimate professionals earning a living for their families. The only way I could do this in my mind was to join the ranks and play with them on a level field.
Many professions have "moonlighters" and most professions don't respect them if they cut corners to get an unfair advantage.
Only you can answer your question but I suspect that you don't feel comfortable selling like this and are just looking for someone to ease your conscience.
GOOD LUCK
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
I called the rink... The front desk says that there isn't anything against me taking pictures; this person stated that friends, family, etc. do it all the time, even during tourneys, including this one. Unlike most people, I just have decent setup and know how to use it. I also left a voice mail with one of the manager and sent on a e-mail to the one of the main hockey guys working there, but haven't hear back from them yet.
I made my decision.... I'm not selling them and will be burning a dvd for my friends and will give them permission to distribute copies of it. I don't expect anything in return. I just can't sell the photos in good-fath. The family has attempted to give me things in when I have donated hand-made crafts for their hockey fundraisers in the past. I turned everything down then, and will turn things down again if they try to give me stuff. I shoot hockey because it's fun and I love getting great shots. I must admit that it thrills me when I see the joy on people's faces when they see themself.
As for taking profits away from the pro at this tourney... they didn't even know I was at the rink. There is no reason why any family or friend would even know that I have decent shots from two periods from one specific prelim game. I think they're doing just fine, even with me there. Speaking with a another ref who was working at my game on Sunday, I was told that the official pro has a monopoly on all the tourneys in bay area. They do good work and have a great setup to print everything on the spot. I think they're doing just fine....
I believe that everyone has a right to take pictures, no matter what setup they have, especially if they're in the stands or around the rink as long as if they are not in the way of the pros and as long as photography is allowed at the venue. With the cost of dSLR's going down, and the improvement in pro-sumer cameras, I think the hobbyist will become a bigger problem for pro sports shooters. However, I don't think the hobbyist or the mom/dad's should be blamed for the problem. I think the pros have to adapt and get better...
As for the future... I'll keep on doing the same thing. I'll shoot what I like, shoot a game for commission only if someone asks, and I'll give ton of stuff away to the people who will appreciate it. Staying a hobbyist is good enough for me.
As for getting the "respect" from the pros.... don't need it. I know when I get a good shot just like when I know that I scored even before the puck goes into the back of the net. It just feels right.
Thanks for the opinions.... all of them.
I believe you're skirting an issue with this statement about the pros adapting. What you say is true - IF THERE IS NO EXCLUSIVE CONTRACT. In that case you are absolutely right - they have to find a way to compete in the new world. But, one of those ADAPTATIONS is these contracts. If there is a contract, then it isn't about them adapting - it's about YOU respecting the contract.
It really is as simple as that. It's like the attendant not being there at a movie theater - yes, you could sneak in, but the fact that no one is watching doesn't make it RIGHT. It's still the wrong thing to do. Just because the pro didn't "catch you" doesn't mean what you are planning on doing is right. It might be - if the tournament director comes back and says "no, there was no contract involving exclusivity"
I may be wrong here but if they have an exclusive contract then even parents are not allowed to take photos. To my knowledge exclusive contracts are usually pretty heavily enforced at the door by a "Hey you can't bring a camera in here." kind of thing. Of course maybe thats just what they do at concerts and such.
But you are right if they do have an exclusivity contract then you aren't allowed to take photos at all, for personal use or otherwise.
I'm sure every contract is different - some may outlaw personal use and others may simply outlaw other for-profit use. As for enforcement, well that depends. Many events are staffed by volunteers - volunteers who may or may not know a photography contract exists. And some of them may not be comfortable with confrontation. Especially if contracted photography is something new to the tournament.
Back when I did kart racing the friends and family could not get onto the track location to take their own photographs. Controlled environment, very dangerous. When I was doing Motocross the same rules were supposed to apply, but seldom did. As a result you would have many parents out there with cameras getting their own shots. Or people on practice days and then posting the images for free for their friends. I don't shoot either event any more, albeit for different reasons. For motocross its because the availability of "good enough" images is rather high.
In the end, speculative sports photography such as this is becoming a difficult business to run.
A former sports shooter
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Hate to hear your giving it up.
AMEN!!!!
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
As a parent, I am paying for my kid's right to play that sport. I am paying a lot of money. If I chose to buy a print, that is my choice. I did not sign up for a monopoly to let one photographer shoot the quality of what they will and charge what they choose. If I want the portrait of my child in their uniform, I can take them to a different studio to get that shot. I guess what I am saying is, their contract is for the space to set up their prints and get the team to help them market them. (this might be a little different in a tournament setting, as the perons running the tournament might be setting contracts and taking big money for it) If others want to try to side market and sell their prints online afterward, I think they should have every right to do this. I think, however, typically this side marketing effort will fail. I have found it very difficult to get people to the site to look at the images. If I were to set up at the games to sell on the spot, I would sell a ton more. People are more likely to make an impulse buy. Instead, they now say, "I'll wait until the end of the season and then buy." Of course, season ends and they forget or decide they'll wait until next year. The guy setting up at the arena has the major advantage. You might want to talk with him about your interest and see if you can shoot for him and share some of the sales? This could be a very nice win-win. Personally, I would be up for that in the football world.
Just some ramblings to keep everyone thinking.
Glass: >Sigma 17-35mm,f2.8-4 DG >Tamron 28-75mm,f2.8 >Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro >Canon 70-200mm,f2.8L IS >Canon 200mm,f2.8L
Flash: >550EX >Sigma EF-500 DG Super >studio strobes
Sites: Jim Mitte Photography - Livingston Sports Photos - Brighton Football Photos
Ian
From what has been said in this post, I strongly disagree with the ethics statement.
This venue apparently allows photography by "friends, family, etc." How is it unethical to freely share the photographs you have been allowed to take? Yes, it potentially takes business away from the pro, but unless the pro and venue are willing to restrict the friends and family from taking pictures (it can be done***), then this is an expected part of doing business.
Here's where the pro's contract really comes into play, i.e., the venue granting a certain level of access not provided to the general public in attendance (e.g., use of the stepladder to get over the glass, maybe bench access, locker room access, etc.), as well as permission to exclusively conduct on-site sales, etc.. If the poster tried to set up a table, hand out business cards, etc., I'm sure he'd promptly get the boot (and rightfully so!).
*** I attended a stage production this weekend and it was EXTREMELY clear that no pictures/video were allowed. The venue had paper signs on every entrance, it was announced over the loudspeaker, and they even went to black during the middle of a scene to announce that "two people are breaking the law by recording the production and we will wait a minute for them to put their cameras away and if caught again, we will take another break so that the ushers can confiscate the offender's equipment." I've never seen this venue so strict, but I'm sure it was in their contract that recording would be rigidly enforced and that is exactly what they were doing.
In other words, in many cases their contract is indeed for more than just a spot to put up a folding table and take your money.
A former sports shooter
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Which is why the ethical thing to do is simply this: when asked to shoot a friend's or friend's family member at an event- especially a tournament or meet: have them find out who the event coordinator is and have THEM ask the coordinator if there is an official photographer and what the arrangement is. If they're not willing to put in 1/2 hour worth of leg work and phone calls on your behalf they must not value your photos very much. This is my approach and it works well. If there is an official photographer I simply ask the friend to select another date when there isn't one. Also, having that event coordinator name and contact information allows me to contact them and ask for permission / restrictions. You'd be amazed how accomodating people can be when you call ahead of time and act like a professional (even if you're not a selling professional). In the end, everyone wins. The friends get their photos because there is always a game/meet whatever that doesn't have a pro. I don't waste my time going to an event where I'm not supposed to shoot. And I don't tread on someone else's contracted territory.
I've also run into both types of arrangements - exclusive shooting rights and just exclusive sales rights As Mercphoto pointed out, more and more leagues are realizing the magic words: "KICK BACK". The pros don't want to waste their time if the team has a dad that's a crack photographer and is giving away the photos so they offer a kickback of the sales if the league will restrict photography - my guess is the restriction is to DSLR type cameras.
This also helps to explain why the pro's photos seem to "cost so much", because part of the sale is going back to the league, not into the photographer's pocket. Ditto for your official school portrait, and .... you get the idea. Often times the parents are not even aware of this.
A former sports shooter
Follow me at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/bjurasz/
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I guess I just don't think it is right for me to ask the team for an exclusive contract. Though a tournament would be a different story to me. Saying this, no one else is trying to sell their photos to the team, but some others definately shoot for themselves and their friends on the team.
Glass: >Sigma 17-35mm,f2.8-4 DG >Tamron 28-75mm,f2.8 >Canon 100mm 2.8 Macro >Canon 70-200mm,f2.8L IS >Canon 200mm,f2.8L
Flash: >550EX >Sigma EF-500 DG Super >studio strobes
Sites: Jim Mitte Photography - Livingston Sports Photos - Brighton Football Photos
I don't see the problem with them shooting family and friends. It's when they shoot and start promoting themselves and selling to others, in essence doing what you do just without your overhead.
"Tis better keep your mouth shut and be thought of as an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt"
Jim - I hear what you're saying and don't disagree at all. But, IMO, you're answering the wrong question - the question isn't whether a pro should seek an exclusive contract. The question is: in the given situation, does the pro HAVE and exclusive contract.
Whether you or I think an exclusive contract should be awarded is sligtly beside the point. If it exists, don't you agree such a contract should be honored? As a parent or hobbyist shooter or competing pro, if you disagree with the policy or contract then take it up with the organization policy makers.
If there is no exclusive contract then all this is moot. But whether people like it or not, such contracts do exist. I just think as photographers, it's ethical for us to respect each other - and if someone busted their hump and convinced an organization to award an exclusive contract we should honor that contract or convince the organization competition is better.