American Kestrel at Bait

John Chapman

Hi,
what are your opinions in using bait to attract birds?

http://johnchapmanphotographer.smugmug.com/

pathfinder

I think it is done by some folks, not looked on favorably by others. SOME birders will be horrified, and want to strangle you.

Those who do use bait, usually arrange the setting so the bait is not seen by the camera, or they shoot the birds on the staging areas they use as they approach the bait.

I believe some of the ranches in south Texas that are used by bird photographers use baits of some kinds. Woodpeckers seem to like peanut butter sometimes, and orioles like fruits like oranges.

kdog

Nice shot!!

Regards,
-joel (who's not touching this bait either )

Maestro

Nice shot. Is seed in your backyard considered bait? I suppose it depends on what you are using and how you are collecting the bait. Are you going around killing dogs and cats and squirrels (Harry probably doesn't mind that. ) or other birds as bait just to attract your subject? If so, I have a problem, but if you are using store bought bait such as a nice rump roast and putting it out, I don't think I would have problem with that. Also, it depends on how you use the photo. If you primarily sell your photos to wildlife magazines, either print or on-line, and you sell your photos as true wildlife action shots, that is a bit dishonest. However, for your own personal photographing and viewing pleasure, I see no problem with that.

gluwater

Maestro wrote:

If you primarily sell your photos to wildlife magazines, either print or on-line, and you sell your photos as true wildlife action shots, that is a bit dishonest.

I think you'de be surprised how many images you see are actually made by use of calls and/or baiting.

John I think it really depends on the circumstances. First make sure that it is legal in the area you want to do it. Especially if you are in a Wildlife sanctuary I would think it would not be allowed. Secondly make sure you are not harming the animal in any way, such as making it work to hard for the food, or not letting it get the food at all, especially if there is a shortage of food in the area. If you are trying to get images to sell to a magazine or publication first check with them if they have any guidelines on if they accept images captured by using baiting. But I think it all boils down to if you think it is ethical or not. If you would not be comfortable telling people you got an image by using baiting then I would not bait. Personally I do not, but that does not mean I am against it.

gluwater

Oh yeah I forgot, John that is a beautiful pose by the kestral, well besides the bait kabob .

Harryb

Marvelous shot John, just beautiful. I've managed to get a few kestrel shots bit most of my attempts have not worked because they are a very skitterish subject. I see one just about everytime I go out but Its very rare I'm that I'm able to get a shot of one.

The subject of baiting and the use of bird calls is a very controversial subject. The last time PF and I shot togther we were verbally assailed by a fantatical birder because a shooter we were with was using a recorded bird call.

When I shoot I try to have no interaction with my subjects and I'm thrilled when there is no reaction to my presence. I have never personally used bait or recordings to attract subjects.

I do not believe that the limited and judicious use of recordings and bait is unethical. You don't want to use calls when its the mating seson for your subject. The use of bait also must be very limited so as to not change the feeding patterns of your subjects.

dbaker1221

the shot is fantastic ..baiting ..I'm iffy on....although I do alot of bird feeder shooting which I guess would be baiting, but even if I wasn't shooting them I'd still be feeding em.

bfjr

Harryb wrote:

Marvelous shot John, just beautiful. I've managed to get a few kestrel shots bit most of my attempts have not worked because they are a very skitterish subject. I see one just about everytime I go out but Its very rare I'm that I'm able to get a shot of one.

The subject of baiting and the use of bird calls is a very controversial subject. The last time PF and I shot togther we were verbally assailed by a fantatical birder because a shooter we were with was using a recorded bird call.

When I shoot I try to have no interaction with my subjects and I'm thrilled when there is no reaction to my presence. I have never personally used bait or recordings to attract subjects.

I do not believe that the limited and judicious use of recordings and bait is unethical. You don't want to use calls when its the mating seson for your subject. The use of bait also must be very limited so as to not change the feeding patterns of your subjects.

In Full Agreement, both with your very very nice shot and Harry's words. Exactly how I conduct myself.

With one Caveat

If it's for the Money and there's competition I play to win !

Maestro

gluwater wrote:

I think you'de be surprised how many images you see are actually made by use of calls and/or baiting.

Ouch, I have much to learn then. I agree wholeheartedly with Harry. He said what I wanted to much better than me.

pathfinder

I admit, I have fed gulls popcorn on occasion.

I have a bird seed feeder for sparrows and other songbirds, but I rarely shoot photgraphs there.

gluwater

pathfinder wrote:

I admit, I have fed gulls popcorn on occasion.

I have a bird seed feeder for sparrows and other songbirds, but I rarely shoot photgraphs there.

Jim you need to come up with a GHB feeder .

Joemess

Well, as a Biologist....
using bait for a bird of prey is extremely unethical. You are changing the behavior of a bird to suit your needs, without consideration of the behavioral impact on your subject. I could also think of half a dozen things not the least of which is the possibility of passing a disease onto the bird inadvertently (small chance but there none the less.) I will not get into the legal aspects of messing with birds of prey...

Someone questioned the use of seed at your birdfeeder... That is pretty much a non-issue for a bird species that rely on granivory for feeding. They are not having to actively hunt prey, and like a field full of seed your feeder is there day after day.



All that said, that is a beautiful photo of a bird that is hard to shoot.

Andrew

gluwater

Joemess wrote:

I will not get into the legal aspects of messing with birds of prey...

I would like to hear your opinions on this. I have heard mention of legal aspects of baiting birds of prey but my searches have not come up with anything but heresay. If you do know of legal bans on this I ask you to list them here so those of us that are uninformed on the matter may learn the truth. Thank you for your honsest input.

Joemess

I'll give it a go.

gluwater wrote:

I would like to hear your opinions on this. I have heard mention of legal aspects of baiting birds of prey but my searches have not come up with anything but heresay. If you do know of legal bans on this I ask you to list them here so those of us that are uninformed on the matter may learn the truth. Thank you for your honsest input.

It is a violation of federal law to harm a bird of prey(BOP), disturb a nest, take eggs, or even have a feather in your possession without express permission from the federal government. You will not likely find the term "baiting" in a regulation, you will find the term molesting. This is a blanket term for a number of actions and is typically any unnatural interaction with a BOP. Now, the question of whether or not you will be fined/arrested for this if a Natural Resources officer approaches you will likely hinge on a case by case basis. If you are in the vicinity of Bald Eagles you will have to do some fast talking.... I know that even with all the collection permits I have (mainly endangered plants and animal carcasses), I have to be very careful with reporting any dealings with migratory birds.


if you have the time and inclination, you can dig through this link to the Migratory Bird Act and related literature.


http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/intrnltr/treatlaw.html


If you repeatedly bait in a BOP, you are reducing the likelihood that it will hunt for food as actively.

Andrew

gluwater

Thanks for the info Andrew and taking the time to give us the link.

Harryb

Joemess wrote:

using bait for a bird of prey is extremely unethical. You are changing the behavior of a bird to suit your needs, without consideration of the behavioral impact on your subject. I could also think of half a dozen things not the least of which is the possibility of passing a disease onto the bird inadvertently (small chance but there none the less.) I will not get into the legal aspects of messing with birds of prey...

Someone questioned the use of seed at your birdfeeder... That is pretty much a non-issue for a bird species that rely on granivory for feeding. They are not having to actively hunt prey, and like a field full of seed your feeder is there day after day.



All that said, that is a beautiful photo of a bird that is hard to shoot.

Andrew

The basic fact is that by co-existing with birds we change their behavior. I once saw 5-6 bald eagles by the side of the road feeding off road kill. The local birds by the Sanibel seaside are very approachable because they are used to hanging around humans as they fish. There are ranches in Texas where they will set you in a blind and provide you with carrion to toss outside as bait. During the upcoming MI IV shoot we will probably go down to Sebastian Inlet for some pelican and wood stork shots. That location is good because there is a shelter where the local fishermen clean their catch and the birds hang out there constantly.

Anytime you go out on a shoot you will inevitably change a bird's behavior when they notice you and take off. The occasional use of bait should not make any permanent change in a raptor's hunting behavior. The emphasis is on occasional. The repeated use of baiting in the same location will definitely have an adverse effect and should not be done.

I am not advocating the practice, its something I will not do. When I shoot I'm trying to capture the interaction of my subject with its environment. I don't want to capture, if possible, their reaction to me.

jwear

Harryb wrote:

The basic fact is that by co-existing with birds we change their behavior. I once saw 5-6 bald eagles by the side of the road feeding off road kill. The local birds by the Sanibel seaside are very approachable because they are used to hanging around humans as they fish. There are ranches in Texas where they will set you in a blind and provide you with carrion to toss outside as bait. During the upcoming MI IV shoot we will probably go down to Sebastian Inlet for some pelican and wood stork shots. That location is good because there is a shelter where the local fishermen clean their catch and the birds hang out there constantly.

Anytime you go out on a shoot you will inevitably change a bird's behavior when they notice you and take off. The occasional use of bait should not make any permanent change in a raptor's hunting behavior. The emphasis is on occasional. The repeated use of baiting in the same location will definitely have an adverse effect and should not be done.

I am not advocating the practice, its something I will not do. When I shoot I'm trying to capture the interaction of my subject with its environment. I don't want to capture, if possible, their reaction to me.

---

i am going along with Harry and add just a little ---if you are going to bait don't do it much and when you do be dam careful [like no balloons in fish ect] and if you do it a lot then you should be shot -how is that for a rule of thumb

Joemess

jwear wrote:

---

i am going along with Harry and add just a little ---if you are going to bait don't do it much and when you do be dam careful [like no balloons in fish ect] and if you do it a lot then you should be shot -how is that for a rule of thumb

It perfectly fine to go along with whomever's opinion you want. However this is not one of those "if I think it is alright, it must be alright" type of situations. If you think that the ends justify the means to get that perfect shot by all means do what you see fit, just remember that the ends can also be influenced by a wildlife officer whose opinion not only may be different..... it will matter more than yours.


Like I said before, this opinion comes from my knowledge and experience of working with wildlife. I fully understand the concept of influencing the behavior of wildlife when we are around it. It is a situation that I have to combat when doing my work. That said, being in the mere presence of a bird / mammal / reptile is a far cry from providing it food in order to draw it near.

If someone does it, take HarryB's advice and do it as little as possible or not at all. This thread started with a question of the ethicality of it and I am simply trying to give an informed opinion.

Harryb

Joemess wrote:

It perfectly fine to go along with whomever's opinion you want. However this is not one of those "if I think it is alright, it must be alright" type of situations. If you think that the ends justify the means to get that perfect shot by all means do what you see fit, just remember that the ends can also be influenced by a wildlife officer whose opinion not only may be different..... it will matter more than yours.


Like I said before, this opinion comes from my knowledge and experience of working with wildlife. I fully understand the concept of influencing the behavior of wildlife when we are around it. It is a situation that I have to combat when doing my work. That said, being in the mere presence of a bird / mammal / reptile is a far cry from providing it food in order to draw it near.

If someone does it, take HarryB's advice and do it as little as possible or not at all. This thread started with a question of the ethicality of it and I am simply trying to give an informed opinion.

I think this is a valuable discussion and I value your contributions to it. I love wildlife photography as frustrating as it can be. My largest concern is the availability of wildlife to shoot. I moved down to Florida 3 years ago and in that period I have seen a marked decrease in wildlife activity in my area due to the out of control development that's going on down here. Since my arrival tehy ahve built a gulf course, an "active 55+" housing development, a super church and are now erecting a medical center on the road that leads to the Viera Wetlands. My untrained estimate is that wildlife activity at the wetlands have dropped close to 50% in the last three years.

The threat to our wildlife makes it essential that we take the utmost care in our interactions with wildlife. If you are not sure about something then don't do it. One of the reasons I won't use bait or recorded calls is that I don't have the information to be sure that engaging in those activities would do no harm. Also you have to understand the rules of the locations where you are shooting. At Merritt Island NWR or the Viera Wetlands you can't use bait or recorded calls.

jwear

Joemess wrote:

It perfectly fine to go along with whomever's opinion you want. However this is not one of those "if I think it is alright, it must be alright" type of situations. If you think that the ends justify the means to get that perfect shot by all means do what you see fit, just remember that the ends can also be influenced by a wildlife officer whose opinion not only may be different..... it will matter more than yours.


Like I said before, this opinion comes from my knowledge and experience of working with wildlife. I fully understand the concept of influencing the behavior of wildlife when we are around it. It is a situation that I have to combat when doing my work. That said, being in the mere presence of a bird / mammal / reptile is a far cry from providing it food in order to draw it near.

If someone does it, take HarryB's advice and do it as little as possible or not at all. This thread started with a question of the ethicality of it and I am simply trying to give an informed opinion.

maybe you missed my point --I will restate -I never have or do I see myself ever baiting!!! is it done yep alll the time ,I never have and I am NOT for it I am opposed to it . your take on what i said or harry said i do not get .I agree with you and the way you stated it .The simple truth is folks do it I do not like it but if I call your so called wildlife officer here is so cal they do nothing --zip And the worst offenders I have come by are natural geo foto folks who just want the $$ shot

Joemess

jwear wrote:

maybe you missed my point --I will restate -I never have or do I see myself ever baiting!!! is it done yep alll the time ,I never have and I am NOT for it I am opposed to it . your take on what i said or harry said i do not get .I agree with you and the way you stated it .The simple truth is folks do it I do not like it but if I call your so called wildlife officer here is so cal they do nothing --zip And the worst offenders I have come by are natural geo foto folks who just want the $$ shot

First let me state my apologies for misunderstanding you. Major problem with the written word.


Secondly, I have to agree with Harry about the availability of wildlife to shoot. The part of the country I am in is going through exponential growth at the moment and I can definitely see the total numbers of animals being pushed down. I can not say with 100 percent certainty the reason, but I have my guesses...


So again, let me apologize for the misunderstanding. On the whole I have never ran into a wildlife photographer that would strike me as a reason to be concerned.



Andrew

jwear

Joemess wrote:

First let me state my apologies for misunderstanding you. Major problem with the written word.


Secondly, I have to agree with Harry about the availability of wildlife to shoot. The part of the country I am in is going through exponential growth at the moment and I can definitely see the total numbers of animals being pushed down. I can not say with 100 percent certainty the reason, but I have my guesses...


So again, let me apologize for the misunderstanding. On the whole I have never ran into a wildlife photographer that would strike me as a reason to be concerned.



Andrew

Gale

I think it is a beautiful shot.
Well I wonder on this subject sometimes.
We are incouraged to feed the small birds, seed and suet and have water out for them. Birdbaths.
Wonder is this is different????

I guess done with good judgement to not harm thier routine, mating or young ones. hummmmmmmm

Swartzy

John...
This is a wonderul image. Won't even get into the bait, non bait issue...it's about the image and you've done it beautifully. I love looking at your work