Using a flash in an Auditorium

RogersDA · February 4, 2007

Went to the school's talent show yesterday. The auditorium was generally very dark, and the lighting on the stage was low.

Me: 580EX flash with sto-fen diffuser on a 20D with 24-70 f/2.8 L. Flash aimed at subjects from about 3 rows from the stage. Shooting in AV and/or manual mode.

Pro: canon with what looked like 300mm prime lens (L-series). External flash with sto-fen diffuser mounted to hotshoe and always pointed straight-up. Pictures taken from about 13 rows away. I have not seen the pictures, but assume he knew what he was doing.

My pictures, to put it bluntly, suck. Even without the diffuser the pictures are not great.

Question: What can I do to improve flash pictures in such an environment given the gear I have. Flash settings, camera settings. I will mod this to show some of my pictures in a bit. If more info is needed then please ask.

Phyxius · February 4, 2007

It's hard to say whether his pictures are better or not. I'm not sure which school you were in, since I went through grade school in Calvert all of my middle and high school concert type events were in the Mary Harrison center. It has a VERY high cieling. The stofen will help diffuse the light and spread it around, but pointing straight up it won't have a HUGE effect on the images, especially without anything to bounce off of. Around Christmas time I went to my old high schools holiday concert and the school hired pro there was walking around infront of the parents and flashing his speed lite all over the place. Not cool.

Now, if your flash was pointing straight ahead and the stage was raised, the stofen would help spread the flash a bit, but you still wouldn't be lighting the people on stage, your flash would be hitting lower.

What ISO were you using? Some of your images maybe okay with a little post work, I'm sure you'll get more comments once the pictures are uploaded and posted, with EXIF.

Here are mine from the Christmas Concert. All are shot without flash, using the 70-200 2.8 I was in about the 10th row. The stage lights were horrible and uneven. ISO is either 400 or 800 in the images.
http://www.phyxius.smugmug.com/gallery/2244902#117114024

RogersDA · February 4, 2007

It's hard to say whether his pictures are better or not. I'm not sure which school you were in, since I went through grade school in Calvert all of my middle and high school concert type events were in the Mary Harrison center. It has a VERY high cieling.

This was at Harmony Hall in P.G. county. Very high ceiling.

The stofen will help diffuse the light and spread it around, but pointing straight up it won't have a HUGE effect on the images, especially without anything to bounce off of.

Which is one of my points of confusion

Around Christmas time I went to my old high schools holiday concert and the school hired pro there was walking around infront of the parents and flashing his speed lite all over the place. Not cool.

I think the Hall (not the school) hired this person for the event. But, there were no restrictions on anybody else taking pictures. I believe he was there to possibly provide picures (for sale, I'm sure) for parents that were not able to get their own. I, and all other parents, will probably get a web link in the next week to see proofs. Perhaps he's a smug person too:D

Now, if your flash was pointing straight ahead and the stage was raised, the stofen would help spread the flash a bit, but you still wouldn't be lighting the people on stage, your flash would be hitting lower. What ISO were you using?

I'll have to check. I was trying various settings. I am not that good with flash, so I was using the opportunity to try things out.

Some of your images maybe okay with a little post work]/quote]

Most of them are blurry. Post work can't make that much go away. If it could then we would all be excellent photographersrofl

I'm sure you'll get more comments once the pictures are uploaded and posted.

Here are mine from the Christmas Concert. All are shot without flash, using the 70-200 2.8 I was in about the 10th row. The stage lights were horrible and uneven. ISO is either 400 or 800 in the images.
http://www.phyxius.smugmug.com/gallery/2244902#117114024

Probably later today I will post some. Need to run to the store for a bit.

Nikolai · February 4, 2007

David,
I'm not a pro, but I did certain amount of indoor school shooting during the last few years. It started with Sony DSC-505V (+HVL-1000) way back when, then with Sony DSC-828 (+HVL F32X), then Canon 20D and finally 30D, with either 580EX or two PW-controlled Sunpak 555 Auto EX units.

What I've learned thus far:

If you can avoid using the flash - avoid it at all cost. Canons are famous for their great high ISO feature, so use it!
Unless you have a low ceiling (classroom, not the concert hall), on-board flash, built-in or dedicated, is pretty much useless. School buildings are known for their less-than-perfect lighting, so you'll get a weird mix of tungsten, fluorescent and flash, and, consequently, a hard time getting rid of the cast, even in RAW.
I did get some decent results with the flash (and also with high ISO:-) when I was allowed to bring my large units (with umbrellas, on the poles, PW controlled) AND position them within 30 ft of my targets.
E.g this shot was taken from more than 100ft away, but the nearest flash unit was fairly close.
I know from the sport shooters that 580Ex can actually deliver some nice punch even at a greater distances if used with some light concentrating device like a Better Beamer. But I never tried it myself. Besides, I hate using direct flash for portraits (light across!), so it would not be of any use for me anyway.
Last but not least: your 24-70, while being an awesome lens, is probably too wide for your particular task at hand. I found myself using 70-200 and 100-400 most of the time. Both are IS, which helps a lot

Just my 0.000002 of the f/stop...

HTH

sirsloop · February 5, 2007

Even if you do use flash you're going to need to shoot it high iso with a fairly wide aperture. If you shot it manual.. I'd say somewhere around iso1600, F4, 1/80th would work out on relatively still subjects. You'll probably need to go right up to 1/200th or higher to get reasonable action shots without noticable shutter drag. If you only have a couple people close together its easy to expose them, but without a ceiling to diffuse off of large groups suck. If its not possible without flash then you just have to live with it.

if you are allowed to bring in softboxes that would be amazing....

... i can just imagine the talk when you (as a parent) start setting up softboxes with wireless flashes!! HAHAH!

RogersDA · February 5, 2007

sirsloop wrote:

Even if you do use flash you're going to need to shoot it high iso with a fairly wide aperture. If you shot it manual.. I'd say somewhere around iso1600, F4, 1/80th would work out on relatively still subjects. You'll probably need to go right up to 1/200th or higher to get reasonable action shots without noticable shutter drag. If you only have a couple people close together its easy to expose them, but without a ceiling to diffuse off of large groups suck. If its not possible without flash then you just have to live with it.

if you are allowed to bring in softboxes that would be amazing....... i can just imagine the talk when you (as a parent) start setting up softboxes with wireless flashes!! HAHAH!

The widest I have is 2.8 on the 24-70 abnd 2.8 to 5.6 on my 70-300. I probably need to invest in someting around 1.2.

Also, why would 70-200 be better at this type of shooting over something like 24-70mm? Would the better solution be 200 @ f2.8 or lower (if lower exists)?

And, I need to figure out the basics before investing in a lot of added equipment.

Any ideas why the other photog was aiming his flash w/ diffuser straight up while shooting from 30-50 feet away? It seems that this would be a negative unless he had an very powerful flash.

Nikolai · February 5, 2007

SirSloop

sirsloop wrote:

if you are allowed to bring in softboxes that would be amazing....... i can just imagine the talk when you (as a parent) start setting up softboxes with wireless flashes!! HAHAH!

I did it a few times, and did not have any problems with it. Band itself usually takes time to assemble, they also have their own recording hardware, so a couple of extra poles do not interfere much, especially considering the fact that the public only see the black back side of them.

I'm sure it causes SOME talk, but nothing outrageous AFAIK

Nikolai · February 5, 2007

RogersDA wrote:

Also, why would 70-200 be better at this type of shooting over something like 24-70mm? Would the better solution be 200 @ f2.8 or lower (if lower exists)?

I mean 700-200L f/2.8 IS USM.
It has a much better reach comparing to 24-70 AND it has image stabilization. Both make a huge difference vs 24-70, which lacks both.

RogersDA wrote:

Any ideas why the other photog was aiming his flash w/ diffuser straight up while shooting from 30-50 feet away? It seems that this would be a negative unless he had an very powerful flash.

I don't know they guy, but I saw people doing very strange things with their photo gear. Maybe somebody he trusted told him to always point the flash up and he never questioned that rule.

I also saw people sitting on the top of the huge steep bleachers, holding their fully zoomed in P&S in their stretched out hands and trying to get a closeup on somebody at the football field 300 ft away - with the flash, of course, under the inferiour HS stadium lighting...

I mean - from my point it was wrong. But may be he had a secretly positioned power optical slave flash on the catwalk and used his onboard one to trigger it... Who knows

RogersDA · February 5, 2007

Nikolai wrote:

I mean 70-200L f/2.8 IS USM. It has a much better reach comparing to 24-70 AND it has image stabilization. Both make a huge difference vs 24-70, which lacks both.

Next time I'll give that one a try if $$ are available.

I mean - from my point it was wrong. But may be he had a secretly positioned power optical slave flash on the catwalk and used his onboard one to trigger it... Who knows

Yeah....I'm just trying to learn so when I see something strange it kind of piques my interest.

On another note anybody know of some great literature on the subject of flash photography?

pathfinder · February 5, 2007

Everything you need to know about the EOS flash system can be found here...Read them and learn them.:D

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index3.html

The pro was probably shooting at ISO 400 or greater, maybe even 1600. At those ISOs, the light from a Stofen on a 580ex will go a very long way.

RogersDA · February 5, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

Everything you need to know about the EOS flash system can be found here...Read them and learn them.:D

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index2.html

http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/index3.html

The pro was probably shooting at ISO 400 or greater, maybe even 1600. At those ISOs, the light from a Stofen on a 580ex will go a very long way.

Thanks.

chrisjlee · February 5, 2007

RogersDA wrote:

Went to the school's talent show yesterday. The auditorium was generally very dark, and the lighting on the stage was low.

Me: 580EX flash with sto-fen diffuser on a 20D with 24-70 f/2.8 L. Flash aimed at subjects from about 3 rows from the stage. Shooting in AV and/or manual mode.

Pro: canon with what looked like 300mm prime lens (L-series). External flash with sto-fen diffuser mounted to hotshoe and always pointed straight-up. Pictures taken from about 13 rows away. I have not seen the pictures, but assume he knew what he was doing.

My pictures, to put it bluntly, suck. Even without the diffuser the pictures are not great.

Question: What can I do to improve flash pictures in such an environment given the gear I have. Flash settings, camera settings. I will mod this to show some of my pictures in a bit. If more info is needed then please ask.

The best thing to do would be to able to mount your auxillary flash off camera & trigger it remotely if you can. That'll make a big difference.

bsvirginian · February 6, 2007

Hi
I haven't even been to southern Maryland for about 15 years. If I were paid to do this job I'd insist on being able to have a couple of portable lights where they were needed to give me at least f/8. The Pro that you mentioned probably had a fast zoom to isolate and also cover the whole stage. I would have probably tested a manual setting that gave me f/8 ( 1/60 at maybe 400 or 800 ISO) and also have my camera on a tripod. I'm not really certain what use the flash on camera could have been at that distance. Maybe to just throw a little light on the subjects. Just my thoughts, BS

RogersDA wrote:

Went to the school's talent show yesterday. The auditorium was generally very dark, and the lighting on the stage was low.

Me: 580EX flash with sto-fen diffuser on a 20D with 24-70 f/2.8 L. Flash aimed at subjects from about 3 rows from the stage. Shooting in AV and/or manual mode.

Pro: canon with what looked like 300mm prime lens (L-series). External flash with sto-fen diffuser mounted to hotshoe and always pointed straight-up. Pictures taken from about 13 rows away. I have not seen the pictures, but assume he knew what he was doing.

My pictures, to put it bluntly, suck. Even without the diffuser the pictures are not great.

Question: What can I do to improve flash pictures in such an environment given the gear I have. Flash settings, camera settings. I will mod this to show some of my pictures in a bit. If more info is needed then please ask.

RogersDA · February 6, 2007

bsvirginian wrote:

Hi
I haven't even been to southern Maryland for about 15 years. If I were paid to do this job I'd insist on being able to have a couple of portable lights where they were needed to give me at least f/8. The Pro that you mentioned probably had a fast zoom to isolate and also cover the whole stage. I would have probably tested a manual setting that gave me f/8 ( 1/60 at maybe 400 or 800 ISO) and also have my camera on a tripod. I'm not really certain what use the flash on camera could have been at that distance. Maybe to just throw a little light on the subjects. Just my thoughts, BS

Thanks for your insights.

When I said "pro" in my original post was just a guess. In reality, for all I know, he was just another relative of one of the kids on the stage and happend to have good gear.

Also, my guess is that he must have been shooting at least 1/250 or faster. This was a talent show with the kids moving about so probably needed high speed to avoid blur.

Art Scott · February 6, 2007

pathfinder wrote:

The pro was probably shooting at ISO 400 or greater, maybe even 1600. At those ISOs, the light from a Stofen on a 580ex will go a very long way.

I used to shoot at University events (in a concer hall setting) from the sound board (over 100 ft from stage) at iso 1600 or 3200 and like f4.5 or so (but not f2.8) not flash using a 70 - 200 f2.8 and got great pics of Dance Festivals......

I am betting he was shooting in manual at the upper end of his ISO range and the flash was in manual at full power to get the most from it.

You have very adequate equipment you just need to experiment and learn to use what you have.......

If you want....... go to my site and look at the 2 dance photos....those were shot at 1600 iso f4.5 at 80mm (from 70 - 200 f2.8) and no flash as we haave a no flash allowed law in all of the Universities Facilities and boy that puts the hurt on some of the news shooters in this town.

Using a flash in an Auditorium

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