Releasing unedited photos to client (policy questions)

urbanaries

This client caught my website on the last day I offered CDs of the final images, and un-marked up prints via smugmug for each session. By the time she actually contacted me, the policy had changed and she questioned me. She's inquring about a package including four sessions of her babies' first year. I was nice and gave her the option of the old terms, for all the sessions. They say, give an inch, and they'll take a mile. Here's the latest email from her:

Lynne,

Thanks for your email answering my questions - I do have just one more...
You mentioned that from each session we will end up with at least 25 final, edited proofs. I imagine you will actually be taking more than 25 shots, and I'm wondering if we will/can receive (on CD) all of the shots from the photo session? So the CD would actually have all the shots from the session and the best of those (about 25) would be edited proofs. Is that possible? I understand the editing takes a significant amount of time, so I wouldn't expect all the shots would be edited, but I think it would be nice to have a copy of all the shots - even the ones that might not seem the best.

Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Thanks for your patience!
Jen


I'm categorically opposed to releasing unedited images. I think even though she says now she'll understand...she won't like it if the unedited ones needed significant WB work, aren't sharpened, color corrected, her babies' jaundiced skin wasn't corrected, etc. Or am I being to egotistical about this? How would you respond, without alienating the prospect?

photodoug

on one level: what effect upon your professional skills and artistic abilities would the sub-par photographs have? Do they reflect favorably or not?

Given all the arguments pro and con, short term and long, her non-acceptace of your offer, but rather a counter offer, I'd say no. Offer your new terms and move on.

Will her displeasure sink your career or seriously damage you financially? Only you know this...my feeling is no, not really. Is a perceived bad experience bad for business: yea, sure, the worst. But you need to support your business model.

Unless you need the $$ to feed yourself. Then the focus is not on long term business success but survival....and you do what you need to do to keep on keeping on.

(posted rather than hitting the back button on my brower toolbar)

Shay Stephens

Just say no.

A chef does not offer the scraps left behind in creating a great meal. A sculpter does not offer the left behind clay. A builder does not leave behind the saw dust and bent nails.

bham

Shay Stephens wrote:

A builder does not leave behind the saw dust and bent nails.

You don't know many builders do you.


Now Back to the original question.

To satisfy her curiosity you might put a low res version of the images on the cd and tell her if she sees something she likes to let you know and you will retouch and give her the full size for x$ or the photo will be available for purchase with something extra for the retouching. Not sure how your business model is setup.

It sounds more like she is just interested in seeing once all the shots. Maybe she is a control freak or thinks she make like a shot that you didn't. Maybe allow her to view for a short time the unedited online for 3 days. Just a couple of alternative ideas to think about. In the end its your decision and you need to feel comfortable with it and only you can get and see the reaction from the client and tell if that is going to satisfy them or not. Maybe she is an important client, maybe not.

Stustaff

From the customer perspective for a moment...

"I love the 25 pics but I bet the photog is throwing away at least a 100 photos! if he is throwing them away/not making any money from them maybe he will let me have them? there might be some I like because they are of my baby and the more I have the better."

"why wont he let me have something that he wont make any money on and wont ever use? and that is important to me!?"

I think this is a real difficult one for you/us.

Only personal experience I have is that I asked my wedding photog for ALL of the shots taken on dvd and I bought them and the copyright for $250 this was on top of what I had already paid for the album and other shots.

I was very happy with this arrangement and would use someone who offered this service over someone who doesnt.

BUT thats cos I will work on the pics myself.

Just wanted to add a different view to think about.

Scott_Quier

I sense you want to control the quality of the product "out there" that has your name on it. I agree!

I'm thinking a compromise way to handle this is to provide her on-line access to all the technically competent shots (the OOF, blurred, un-recoverables land on the cutting-room floor, never to see light of day) and let her choose the 25 (or whatever number is correct) that she wants. Finish and deliver those and be done with it. Those that she doesn't select, she doesn't get them. If she want more than the package count, charge for your time to finish them. I think this will bring this situation under control.

saurora

I agree with Scotts resolution. Let her view the prints, explaining to her that it is not in your best interest as a professional photographer to allow photos not up to your high standards to possibly be viewed by others. Charge what you will for what she decides she wants, it may not be all that many. I understand from the mother's point of view....every photo I took of my son was a "keeper" regardless of quality. You just want to retain as many possible memories of their childhood as possible. You also have the option of destroying those images that are not exposed well, etc. before allowing her to view. The ball is still in your court, do what makes you comfortable.

urbanaries

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful answers, and some validation that I'm not crazy for resisting this idea from the get-go.

I do think Scott's suggestion is a good one. I'll admit its a hard pill to swallow; to relinquish image selection to someone else implies I am not confident in my own eye. And while I may not have mastered every technical aspect of photography, and will always be learning, the one thing I DO have confidence in is my eye. If I didn't, then why would I be doing what I do?

The other major issue is the fact that its four sessions. Putting 100+ images on smugmug for four sessions, THEN getting feedback/emails back and forth/negotiation etc etc each time, sounds like a huge headache. And thus far, this client is never satisfied with the first answer to her question. Plus, I give a range (25-50) for a shoot, and of course, she's going to pick no less than 50 images per session. And since I let her in before my prices went up, there's no financial benefit to doing any of this.

I'm having trouble with these growing pains. I have been told many times, by fellow photographers and clients alike that my price structure was way too low. And of course, when I did my taxes and didn't break even in '06, I agreed! So I raise them and now I'm dealing with the the explanations, the compromises, the "can you grandfather me in" crap. I am treading very cautiously, as I don't want my business to be a casualty to this transition.

urbanaries

Stustaff wrote:

From the customer perspective for a moment...

"I love the 25 pics but I bet the photog is throwing away at least a 100 photos! if he is throwing them away/not making any money from them maybe he will let me have them? there might be some I like because they are of my baby and the more I have the better."

"why wont he let me have something that he wont make any money on and wont ever use? and that is important to me!?"

I think this is a real difficult one for you/us.
...
Just wanted to add a different view to think about.

And your argument is exactly why I hesitate to just say "no." I understand where she's coming from, I just get irritated when folks want everything for nothing, and I need to not take it personally. Especially now that I've opened myself via Google advertising. Clients that come from the internet (like this one) have a different level of commitment and expectations than folks that come in through word of mouth. I'm definitely learning THAT.

I sent her an email and told her to call me. Enough of this negotiating over email! Then I can explain my refusal to do what she is asking, get a feel for how serious she is/her motivation, and then be firm on any compromise I offer, and be done with it.

urbanaries

Ok now i'm mad. Five minutes after I get a reply from this client saying she'll talk to me tonight about it, I get an email from a bride whom she works with, that is in the process of booking a wedding with me. I gave this bride the same break/deal about the old pricing, since one referred the other to me after finding me via google. Now SHE wants to know if she can have all images from her wedding on the CD, not just the 150 edited ones from the original (cheap!) deal.

Now I'm inclined to tell them both no, because I obviously will have to do this for both of them. and I am NOT posting hundreds of wedding pictures up there for her to choose from, then get them printed somewhere else in the long run.

I don't want to lose both prospects, but this is ridiculous. The bride is having a $20,000 reception and is nickel and diming me on an $800 package.

bsvirginian

I developed my policies many years ago and don't deviate from them. You are right about "giving an inch" Bob S

urbanaries wrote:

Ok now i'm mad. Five minutes after I get a reply from this client saying she'll talk to me tonight about it, I get an email from a bride whom she works with, that is in the process of booking a wedding with me. I gave this bride the same break/deal about the old pricing, since one referred the other to me after finding me via google. Now SHE wants to know if she can have all images from her wedding on the CD, not just the 150 edited ones from the original (cheap!) deal.

Now I'm inclined to tell them both no, because I obviously will have to do this for both of them. and I am NOT posting hundreds of wedding pictures up there for her to choose from, then get them printed somewhere else in the long run.

I don't want to lose both prospects, but this is ridiculous. The bride is having a $20,000 reception and is nickel and diming me on an $800 package.

Scott_Quier

urbanaries wrote:

The other major issue is the fact that its four sessions. Putting 100+ images on smugmug for four sessions, THEN getting feedback/emails back and forth/negotiation etc etc each time, sounds like a huge headache. And thus far, this client is never satisfied with the first answer to her question. Plus, I give a range (25-50) for a shoot, and of course, she's going to pick no less than 50 images per session. And since I let her in before my prices went up, there's no financial benefit to doing any of this.

My responses:

• First answer is the only answer.
• Giver her 50 proofs from each session to choose from. Finish only 25 of them.
• Her selection to be made before you shoot the next session.
• Get payment for the session and the finished shots before you shoot. You can include a print credit to make it go down easier.

urbanaries wrote:

Ok now i'm mad. Five minutes after I get a reply from this client saying she'll talk to me tonight about it, I get an email from a bride whom she works with, that is in the process of booking a wedding with me. I gave this bride the same break/deal about the old pricing, since one referred the other to me after finding me via google. Now SHE wants to know if she can have all images from her wedding on the CD, not just the 150 edited ones from the original (cheap!) deal.

The bride came in after the prices went up. You have no business relationship with the bride before the prices went up and/or your terms changed. The fact that she was refered by someone who got a different deal is just too bad. Try going to wally-world and asking to merchandise at last year's prices. They'll show you the door right after they pick themselves up off the floor from laughing so hard. She either likes the prices/terms or she moves on to the next photog.

You should be in the business to enjoy what you are doing. Don't stress about this sort of stuff. Set your policies and prices and stick to them. Change them when they aren't working for your or when the market changes. Don't be changing them in an effort to chase a single client.

If you're fighting with a client over an $800 gig, maybe you need to raise your prices. If you read up on David Jay, this is some of what he did. Raising the prices brought him a "better level" of client - with, I suspect, a different set of issues.

bham

urbanaries wrote:

Ok now i'm mad. Five minutes after I get a reply from this client saying she'll talk to me tonight about it, I get an email from a bride whom she works with, that is in the process of booking a wedding with me. I gave this bride the same break/deal about the old pricing, since one referred the other to me after finding me via google. Now SHE wants to know if she can have all images from her wedding on the CD, not just the 150 edited ones from the original (cheap!) deal.

Now I'm inclined to tell them both no, because I obviously will have to do this for both of them. and I am NOT posting hundreds of wedding pictures up there for her to choose from, then get them printed somewhere else in the long run.

I don't want to lose both prospects, but this is ridiculous. The bride is having a $20,000 reception and is nickel and diming me on an $800 package.

One is a portrait booking, the other is a wedding and those are two totally different things. But I think you thinking about this the wrong way. You can profit from this and still make them happy.

I have had a couple different brides who wanted a cd of all the images. I asked her what she wanted the cd for 1.)just to view the pictures or 2.)the images to print as she wishes.

One bride just wanted a version she could see on her computer screen, put some on myspace, etc. I said sure that will be $100 and gave her a cd of the images all downsized to 300x450 or 350x525 (Not sure but one of these 2). Now this size you can see well on screen, but printing a 4x6 will give you not so great results.

Another bride wanted a version she could use and print images. I believe I charged her about $600 -$800 (Not sure I think I asked for about $2 an image, if they were gonna pic just some then I would charge more per picture). She was initially taken back, but then I explained that I got my income 2 ways by the shooting fee and from prints therefore the cost of the cd is to compensating me for loses of all future sales of those pictures.

Now the first bride may go to wal-mart and try to print a 8x10 from the cd and then get angry and call me, but she wasn't honest in what she wanted the cd for. I try to explain the two options clearly.

Just because they are getting a cd, doesn't mean you have to give them the full res files. I wouldn't be devious about doing that because then they may get angry once they realize what they have.

Or you could even give them a cd of the lower res images with some type of watermark that you place on them with a photoshop action, that would make them unlikely to print them with the word proof on it. But rather than this I think an online proof gallery would be preferable.

Scott_Quier

bham wrote:

One is a portrait booking, the other is a wedding and those are two totally different things. But I think you thinking about this the wrong way. You can profit from this and still make them happy.

I have had a couple different brides who wanted a cd of all the images. I asked her what she wanted the cd for 1.)just to view the pictures or 2.)the images to print as she wishes.

One bride just wanted a version she could see on her computer screen, put some on myspace, etc. I said sure that will be $100 and gave her a cd of the images all downsized to 300x450 or 350x525 (Not sure but one of these 2). Now this size you can see well on screen, but printing a 4x6 will give you not so great results.

Another bride wanted a version she could use and print images. I believe I charged her about $600 -$800 (Not sure I think I asked for about $2 an image, if they were gonna pic just some then I would charge more per picture). She was initially taken back, but then I explained that I got my income 2 ways by the shooting fee and from prints therefore the cost of the cd is to compensating me for loses of all future sales of those pictures.

Now the first bride may go to wal-mart and try to print a 8x10 from the cd and then get angry and call me, but she wasn't honest in what she wanted the cd for. I try to explain the two options clearly.

Just because they are getting a cd, doesn't mean you have to give them the full res files. I wouldn't be devious about doing that because then they may get angry once they realize what they have.

Or you could even give them a cd of the lower res images with some type of watermark that you place on them with a photoshop action, that would make them unlikely to print them with the word proof on it. But rather than this I think an online proof gallery would be preferable.

FWIW - I like this solution!

urbanaries

After she countered my "sorry, that's the policy but you're welcome to purchase a package with more edited pix" email with "well I think it would be nice to have all of them in case I wanted to crop something etc", I offered Bham's brilliant idea. A free web resolution CD in place of her former "gift" CD of 150 full-res edited pics. Or, if she wants the option to print them all, all edited images for $500.

I expect I won't hear from her for a while, while she checks out other photographers, and realizes I'm still way under my competition. If not, hopefully she has a second cousin with a camera, because I'm done bending over backward. I had two more inquiries today based on new prices, so I'm not willing to cut a deal I won't be happy with in the long run...I don't need the money that bad!

Thanks again everyone for offering your experienced advice. I'll let you guys know how it turns out. In the meantime, looks like I need some more fine print on my website!

Art Scott

If you decide to give in to her..then tell her that you will give her all that turned out techically correct and give her an extra 10 - 15 shots per session, dump all the rest...also do not do any post on them except to change from raw to webready jpegs in no more than 4 x 6 inches.....and definitely copyright them..as well as the whole disk and make it a clear copyright on the disk label.........

When people complain or ask about your price increase....just state that the increases were impossible to get around if you wanted to stay in business...equipment and software prices increase regularly....

I normally have a line on all my info sheets that prices are subject to change (increase) without notice and i would not grandfather any one into lower prices unless they regularly spend a few thousand a month...If they were a really great commerical customer then yeah for 6 months or so then they would have to pay the higher price.

Also you could answer them with a question like: When you local grocer raises their prices do ask to have your groceries rang up at the lower previous price....if not then why should I do that for you????

Art Scott

urbanaries wrote:

Ok now i'm mad. Five minutes after I get a reply from this client saying she'll talk to me tonight about it, I get an email from a bride whom she works with, that is in the process of booking a wedding with me. I gave this bride the same break/deal about the old pricing, since one referred the other to me after finding me via google. Now SHE wants to know if she can have all images from her wedding on the CD, not just the 150 edited ones from the original (cheap!) deal.

Now I'm inclined to tell them both no, because I obviously will have to do this for both of them. and I am NOT posting hundreds of wedding pictures up there for her to choose from, then get them printed somewhere else in the long run.

I don't want to lose both prospects, but this is ridiculous. The bride is having a $20,000 reception and is nickel and diming me on an $800 package.

If you give in to the bride as well...just make sure that when you are done and she asks how many shots you took...answer with I don't have a clue as I have used more than one memory card or camera....just don't give a solid answer unless your gaurantee is for 150 pics then tell her Oh around 155 - 160....that way she won't be expecting 200 or 500 photos from you on CD (or DVD).....I never told any one how many frames I shot when shooting film or even digital....one answer I have used since converting to digital was....not sure the counter just started over at 1 and it say there are.....so many pics, but I can't access the other folder while the card is in the camera...but I can gaurantee you will have your prescribed (gauranteed) amount of photos and yes I will give you evey shot taken.......except for technically bad duplicates.

I never want anyoone to know how many was taken so they don't tell their friend tht I shot 500 to get the gauranteed amount ...as I tell them after I have take the prescribed amount you will be glad I am done as we will be moving so fast that you will be tired of the flash going off in your face....this also quells the request to seethe not so good ones...so I have a list of answers that are all about the same....many times I just say Oh...I don't know how many do you think I took......

Shay Stephens

It has been my experience that nothing good comes from giving people the scraps. It dilutes your presentations. And people buy what they see. If you show them something that is not good they will probably buy it, show their friends, and you will get more people wanting that. Remember the old axiom: "Never underestimate the poor taste of your client." So don't deliver anything you don't want to be refered by.

Saying no to the request brings a short lived and uncomfortable situation. But saying yes makes it worse and it lasts much longer.

Just say no.

urbanaries

Shay Stephens wrote:

It has been my experience that nothing good comes from giving people the scraps. It dilutes your presentations. And people buy what they see. If you show them something that is not good they will probably buy it, show their friends, and you will get more people wanting that. Remember the old axiom: "Never underestimate the poor taste of your client." So don't deliver anything you don't want to be refered by.

Saying no to the request brings a short lived and uncomfortable situation. But saying yes makes it worse and it lasts much longer.

Just say no.

Shay, I know the right answer is rarely the easiest one. And my gut tells me you're right, and the people who want more now, are only going to want more later. And gosh, the poor taste of the client is indeed quite a phenomenon. Its just hard to know sometimes (when you're starting out like me) what is good business sense, versus an inflated ego.

Your opinion means a lot, and I appreciate your lending me a backbone. Saying no is hard!

lynne

Shay Stephens

urbanaries wrote:

Saying no is hard!

Hehehe, that is so true. But it reduces stress like nothing else known in this universe. Stress comes from wanting to say no, but saying yes instead, and then dealing with the aftermath of doing something you didn't want to do in the first place.

It's like pulling a splinter out of your finger, you can leave it there and deal with the continuing pain and possible infection, or deal with a bit more quick pain and be done with it for good.

In the photo business, you also have to be willing to turn down work that you know you are not suited for. I turn away a percentage of business every year for one reason or another. It is never joyous, but it is the right thing. Either the client will be better served, or I will prevent myself from doing something I don't want to do. Some become quite insistent that I should do it. When I have caved, I have always regretted it. My gut instinct was trying to tell me something important. When I let reason shut my gut up, it usually turns out bad.

Listen to your gut, it will keep you out of trouble, and living a more stress free life :-)

urbanaries

Shay Stephens wrote:

Hehehe, that is so true. But it reduces stress like nothing else known in this universe. Stress comes from wanting to say no, but saying yes instead, and then dealing with the aftermath of doing something you didn't want to do in the first place.

It's like pulling a splinter out of your finger, you can leave it there and deal with the continuing pain and possible infection, or deal with a bit more quick pain and be done with it for good.

In the photo business, you also have to be willing to turn down work that you know you are not suited for. I turn away a percentage of business every year for one reason or another. It is never joyous, but it is the right thing. Either the client will be better served, or I will prevent myself from doing something I don't want to do. Some become quite insistent that I should do it. When I have caved, I have always regretted it. My gut instinct was trying to tell me something important. When I let reason shut my gut up, it usually turns out bad.

Listen to your gut, it will keep you out of trouble, and living a more stress free life :-)

Ok, Shay, bombs away...after another email where she asked me if it would be possible for them to assist in picking out the best 150 images, and implied that other photographers include all images on CD, (then apologized profusely for all the "confusion") I replied the following:

I do reserve the right to choose the 150-200 images that flatter you and your guests the best. The majority of extra images are duplicate group shots, where someone's eyes are closed, unflattering angles of you and/or guests, out of focus, someone moved into the frame, etc.

If the idea of getting every image on CD is an important issue for you, and you've found other photographers who include this at no charge, then I have to be honest and say I'm not sure I would be the best fit for you.

Lynne

Hitting that Send button was hard! But well worth it- I've learned a lot tonight.

Nikolai

Lynne,
Sorry I'm late for the game...

From what little experience I had, there is nothing worse than showing the customer the unedited images...

Adding to the Shay's line of examples: I do like filet minions, but I'd rather not get the tour of the slaughterhouse right before my surf-and-turf dinner...

"Just say no." (Shay)

Cheers!

urbanaries

Update:

Both women got terse, "those are the terms" emails from me, and I expected not to hear from either of them. I actually increased the deposit for the bride because she wanted to alter a package, and I was willing to do 10% of what she was asking for, but at a price, and tacked it onto the deposit. They both shocked me by assuring me they were not going with anyone else, and apparently deposits and contracts are in the mail. (not holding my breath; although I did tell them both deals were off if I didn't get paperwork within 5 business days).

I am not so worried about the baby client; she's paying for all sessions upfront and those are less liability than weddings. I considered turning down the bride entirely; but Ithe backbone Shay lent me definitely changed the tone of our exchanges...she knew she wasn't in control. She's getting married in one of the most sought after locales in town (right on Monument circle), and her itinerary is very photographer-friendly. So without those factors, i would have turned her down completely.

Thanks again all for helping me through this learning curve. Thank God for dgrin having a business forum; these types of issues are not teachable in a class or book.

Pupator

Just as an FYI - this was a great thread to follow! I'm glad it's turning out well!

saurora

Yeahhhhhh Lynn!!! Your response to them was right on!!! And it worked! Give people an inch and they will wear you down. You put your foot down and it worked! Don't be afraid of losing business.........your stuff is great and you will be in demand if they truly want unique photographs. Shay's advice was right on. The stress isn't worth it. Good luck and I'm glad you've resolved it!

urbanaries

saurora wrote:

Yeahhhhhh Lynn!!! Your response to them was right on!!! And it worked! Give people an inch and they will wear you down. You put your foot down and it worked! Don't be afraid of losing business.........your stuff is great and you will be in demand if they truly want unique photographs. Shay's advice was right on. The stress isn't worth it. Good luck and I'm glad you've resolved it!

Very kind words Saurora, thank you much!

Its almost like dating. The more accommodating you are, the more needy you seem, and therefore less of a "catch". I'm going to start acting like a man.....the chicks should be lining up!

I bet Mrs. Shay played a championship game of 'unavailable' to get a rock on HER finger.

xris

I'm late to the thread too. But it is a very engaging one. Here's my two cents worth...

Though I'm a digital newby, my film-based experience (since 1976) definitely relates here. Hope it helps!

The rule of thumb as I know it is sort of like this:

a) if you release sub-standard photos they WILL come back to slap you in the face.

b) YOU are the photographer. With the rare exception of workshops and retrospectives, you decide what becomes a picture and with what treatments. You also decide what does NOT. Your scratch pix simply DO NOT EXIST in the outside world.

c) If you release low-res (Web) versions of substandard work, that is what you will become known for. Clients will get 8 X 10s of their sweeties at Walmart, quality be damned, and tell everyone you did the pix.

And, frankly, you did!

Set your standards an keep 'em. That is what you are paid for, after all: Whether the client realises it or not.

And never forget there may even be legal issues to those cast-offs. I am not a lawyer, but I have been told that if you willing release a grossly unflattering shot of someone to the public you may be liable for civil injury!!

Zanotti

I enjoyed reading all this, but find the final outcome was never revealed.

Did you get both jobs?

Were they happy? (I am sure!)

Did you give out more photos or CD's

Can we see a shot?

Thanks,

Z

urbanaries

Zanotti wrote:

I enjoyed reading all this, but find the final outcome was never revealed.

Did you get both jobs?

Were they happy? (I am sure!)

Did you give out more photos or CD's

Can we see a shot?

Thanks,

Z

Oops sorry, didn't mean to not update! I got signed contracts for both clients, one prepaid for four portrait sessions, the other for an engagement session and their wedding (Oct 07.)

I'm no longer giving away CDs, I do sell them though, a lot of them actually.

Here's a sample from the engagement session



And one from the newborn session


The bride-to-be wrote me the nicest letter after her engagement shoot, and has referred me to a commercial job that I quoted recently (nothing's come of it yet). They were great to work with and I think the wedding will go very smoothly!

Lynne

Zanotti

Great stuff, great photos and what a great lesson for all of us.

Z

Scott_Quier

So, you followed Shay's advice!

Hmmm ... maybe he does know what he's talking about!!

I'm really glad it all worked out for you!