Link trade

Michael Ray

Anybody want to trade links?

kapalua

seo techniques

Michael Ray wrote:

Anybody want to trade links?

Hi Michael, I'm certainly no expert on SEO techniques, but my limited understanding is that reciprocal links have become almost worthless in helping your Google ranking - that what you really need are one-way links.

At least, that's what I've been reading in the SEO forums. Is this incorrect?

Scott Buel

kapalua wrote:

Hi Michael, I'm certainly no expert on SEO techniques, but my limited understanding is that reciprocal links have become almost worthless in helping your Google ranking - that what you really need are one-way links.

At least, that's what I've been reading in the SEO forums. Is this incorrect?

I have been trying to learn as much as I can about this subject lately for my company's web site (and by default my site!).

Anyway, my friend BJ at Kickasswebdesign.com offers up some great advice on SEO:

http://kickasswebdesign.com/wordpress/2006/08/the-basics-of-search-engine-marketing/

Kapalua, from everything I've read recently, I think you are right.

Shay Stephens

Spend more time making your site relevant rather than trying to play games and you will spend your time and effort a lot more wisely.

CavalierPhoto

Here, Here!

Michael Ray

Good morning!

I think that any link back to my site is better than not having a link. Gaining ground on Google is one thing, building traffic is related, but also a separate issue.

To answer the original question about the link trade being discounted my Google. I can’t really answer that question. I have no real experience with that subject directly. I sort of approach the SEO thing as a whole and fling as many good things against the wall at one time and hope that something sticks. Changes on Google take too long to happen. If I made a minute change and waited to see what happened, I'd still be on the 20th page instead of being on the first page. Sure, there are things that you can do that are way more important than others, but once you get to the first page or two, the little things do make a difference climbing those last few spots. All the listings on the first page are relevant, you just need to give G what it wants to be #1 and not #10.

I'm working on a three-way link exchange idea, I'll let you know more later.

Ta-ta...

kapalua

Shay Stephens wrote:

Spend more time making your site relevant rather than trying to play games and you will spend your time and effort a lot more wisely.

Hi Shay, I understand where you're coming from, but let me take the other side of this issue. What good is a site if nobody can find it? I'd hardly call working on optimizing your site so that your potential customers can find it to be "playing games". I'd just call it smart marketing and a good standard business practice. I have NOT yet optimized my site, and my Google rankings stink - which is why this topic is of great interest to me.

Laurence Kim Photography

thebigsky

Try to build links that a user might actually follow rather than simply exchange links with non-related sites.

I think if they are relevant they'll carry some weight even if they are reciprocal.

Charlie

JimM

True SEO takes a lot of effort and constant industry knowledge. The company I work for charges a ton of money for this work and knowledge. SEO is no different than anything else. You can build it yourself or buy it. If I were to build a car, it would me more time and money to learn how to it, buy the parts and assemble it, than buying one.

Experimenting with site changes and SEO is a lot of fun. I do it with my site all the time on a localized basis (and I pick up tricks from our experts). Realize that in markets that search engine rankings are valuable, you are fighting experts that spend their lives doing this. Some companies have staffs costing them millions a year for to keep them at their rankings (big money is web searches).

Just my two cents. Also, for what it is worth, our experts say links are valuable, and relevant links from other relevant important sites can be valuable. However, a "links" page or a page with a lot of outbound links can really hurt you too. This SEO game is definitely part art and part science and both parts change every month with each search engine's algorithm.

Shay Stephens

kapalua wrote:

I have NOT yet optimized my site, and my Google rankings stink - which is why this topic is of great interest to me.

Ah, but see, I have. Which Is why I say what I do. Don't waste times on games. Asking people to link exchange with you is gaming the system, and is going to backfire. Spend your time making your site relevant so that people want to link to your site.

JimM

Shay Stephens wrote:

Spend your time making your site relevant so that people want to link to your site.

From everything that our experts say, this is DEAD ON (I am the Director of Business Development at our firm).

Michael Ray

Shay

So how does one make a photography site more revelant?

How did you do it?

MR

Shay Stephens

Michael Ray wrote:

So how does one make a photography site more revelant?

You answered your own question

There is no magic bullet, no special combination of words, no secret handshakes. It is kind of like asking, how does one become a well known actor/athelete/musician? The answer is simply to be a great actor, quaterback, or guitar player. Whatever it is just be really good at it. If you are not good, you will never be relevant unless you are so spectacularly bad that you attract attention for that specifically (e.g. William Hung).

An important tip is to start local and specialized and then spread as your experience and reputation can carry you farther into wider and more generic searches.

You gotta start at the bottom and work your way up. You might be able to game the system once, but it won't last long and in the end it won't carry you long term either. So that is always going to be a dead end strategy.

kapalua

Shay Stephens wrote:

You might be able to game the system once, but it won't last long and in the end it won't carry you long term either. So that is always going to be a dead end strategy.

I fully agree with you here Shay. Shady "gaming" techniques (also known as "black hat" SEO techniques) can certainly backfire. If Google, for example, catches you doing stuff like having a bunch of bogus links from linkfarms, they will eventually catch you and put you in the penalty box so that no one will ever find you!

However, doing PROPER search engine optimization (i.e. "white hat" SEO) is not gaming the system it's just smart business. So spending time making sure your site is properly indexed to the right keywords, properly formatted Hx tags, etc. is not a fools errand. Lastly, in my experience being a great photographer has little to do with success in my field (wedding photography). Business and marketing smarts is probably 10x more important than your skill and talent with the camera, but that's a thread for another day......

Shay Stephens

kapalua wrote:

PROPER search engine optimization (i.e. "white hat" SEO) is not gaming the system it's just smart business. So spending time making sure your site is properly indexed to the right keywords, properly formatted Hx tags, etc. is not a fools errand.

True!

Lastly, in my experience being a great photographer has little to do with success in my field (wedding photography).

Not really something I would recommend others aspire to however, in any field.

dogwood

JimM wrote:

True SEO takes a lot of effort and constant industry knowledge. The company I work for charges a ton of money for this work and knowledge. SEO is no different than anything else. You can build it yourself or buy it. If I were to build a car, it would me more time and money to learn how to it, buy the parts and assemble it, than buying one.

Experimenting with site changes and SEO is a lot of fun. I do it with my site all the time on a localized basis (and I pick up tricks from our experts). Realize that in markets that search engine rankings are valuable, you are fighting experts that spend their lives doing this. Some companies have staffs costing them millions a year for to keep them at their rankings (big money is web searches).

True, very true. You can also buy ads on google (and probably other search engines... say are there other search engines? )

Dare I suggest this... but I've found myspace to be an incredible (and free) way to boost people visiting my site. I have no idea what that means for google, er, SEO, but post a bulletin on myspace with a link, and you'll get plenty of folks clicking to your site, especially if you offer them something (10-percent off a shoot for one week only, for example). 'Course you have to deal with myspace and it's garish, 1990's html based design.

Just an idea.

Michael Ray

Shay

It appears to me that you make the same mistake that I’ve seen many other photographers make - not realizing the difference between becoming a good photographer and becoming a good marketer. The truly successful among us are masters of both. Neglect either one of these areas and your potential will never be realized. I know some very talented, financially poor photographers. And I know some very so-so photographers that are surprisingly successful. The difference is marketing.

Being on the first page of Google can mean THOUSANDS of dollars a year to the AVERAGE wedding photographer. If the talent is exceptional, then it would probably mean tens of thousands in additional income each year.

Regardless of your skill level, good marketing pays. It's that simple...

Good SEO is good marketing and has a GIGANTIC return on investment. Far better than anything else I've ever done. (Except for that bank job I did back in the seventies... )

Wanna trade a link?

:+)

Michael Ray

Jim

I see you do really well with your SEO. How much a year would you estimate that being on the first page of Google means to your bottom line?

Just guess...

Shay Stephens

Michael Ray wrote:

Shay, It appears to me that you make the same mistake that I’ve seen many other photographers make - not realizing the difference between becoming a good photographer and becoming a good marketer. The truly successful among us are masters of both. Neglect either one of these areas and your potential will never be realized. I know some very talented, financially poor photographers. And I know some very so-so photographers that are surprisingly successful. The difference is marketing.

Being on the first page of Google can mean THOUSANDS of dollars a year to the AVERAGE wedding photographer. If the talent is exceptional, then it would probably mean tens of thousands in additional income each year.

Regardless of your skill level, good marketing pays. It's that simple...

Good SEO is good marketing and has a GIGANTIC return on investment. Far better than anything else I've ever done.

:+)

Michael, I am not talking out of my nether regions here. Type in "new york wedding photographer" in google or just "new york photographer". Yes that is me there on the front page. And yes, of course you need to be a good photographer *and* marketer. That is the point I have been trying to make.

But tricks, or thinking you can do great by just having great marketing, or any of the other things I have been complaining about won't last the long haul. It takes time and effort. And I like to point that out when I see posts that make it seem like you can just do a few tricks and bammo, front page glory.

Your work is awesome and it is backed up with great marketing effort. Your relevancy to food photography is obvious when you first hit your page. But Joe Sixpack with a bunch of cat pictures is never going to have that kind of success now is he? No matter how many people he links with.

As far as linking goes, I only link to people I have worked with, recommend, and would be relevant to any of my clients. But for the record I would have no qualms linking with you if it were relevant, your work is top notch.

JimM

Michael Ray wrote:

Jim

I see you do really well with your SEO. How much a year would you estimate that being on the first page of Google means to your bottom line?

Just guess...

I get 5 leads a month (people contacting me) 3-4 of them are for weddings. I don't really try to do many weddings so I usually hand them off to local friends. I'd suggest if I made $2K a wedding and closed half of them 2.5x$2=$5K/mo or $60K a year. Yes Google is an amazing marketing opportunity. 4word systems, the company I work for, has successfully used the Internet to make our clients millions of dollars every year.

JimM

Shay Stephens wrote:

I am not talking out of my nether regions here. Type in "new york wedding photographer" in google or just "new york photographer". Yes that is me there on the front page. And yes, of course you need to be a good photographer *and* marketer.

I just checked, and nope not talking out of any region other than his mouth. And his mouth is dead on. New York is a major market and anyone on the first page of google for local search is going to get more business than they can handle. With a bit of quick research, over 10,000 people a month are searching for "new york photographer"!

Michael Ray

Shay

I'm impressed. You've mastered some tough search phrases. I take my hat off to you. But you must admit two things...

1. It wasn't done by mistake, it just didn't happen, right?
2. It means substantially to your bottom line, right?

Good work

MR

rdlugosz

I'd say that Shay is right, and also that Michael is right. It seems that everyone in this thread is intending to be helpful in their own way.

On Shay's point: if you make your site more relevant then it'll be perceived that way by The Google. To Michael's point: good marketing is key to everything and that includes a bit of SEO-thought on your site. I don't think that Michael is telling everyone to focus on marketing exclusively, just as Shay isn't telling folks to ignore SEO.

In related news, my relatively new blog is ranked #1 in google for Cincinnati Photoblog. Don't start shaking my hand just yet: there wasn't really any competition out there to speak of.

Hopefully as I post more and more content to the blog relative to what people are interested in reading my ranking for other terms will improve as well. This will increase my subscriber rate & ultimately translate into more shoot leads. It's a successful strategy that is really just a combination of what both Michael and Shay are suggesting.