>>> Last Photographer Standing (Discussion)

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  • Shay StephensShay Stephens Artist in Residence Posts: 3,165Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    As far as I'm concerned a photograph is not a photograph if it contains elements that weren't there when the shutter was released.

    Is this a photography competition or an art competition?

    Charlie

    Well then you will be glad to know that no one will be forcing you to use an image editor mwink.gif
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
  • NikolaiNikolai Darth SLR Posts: 19,033Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    Is this a photography competition or an art competition?

    It's an art. Period. Painters did it, photogs did it, composers did it, everybody does it. How about removing a stinking powerline? If yes, why not add a star or two?
    Take it easy, do what you want and leave it to the judges. But PLEASE do not impose your personal point of view on how the rest of us should behave.
    Live and let live! Peace! iloveyou.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
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  • LiquidAirLiquidAir Major grins Posts: 1,751Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    As far as I'm concerned a photograph is not a photograph if it contains elements that weren't there when the shutter was released.

    Is this a photography competition or an art competition?

    Charlie

    I like your definition. It arguably leaves room for cloning things out and combining exposures, but rules out montages unless you managed to caputure all of the elements in one scene.

    However, for the competition if you are going to have hard and fast rules you need to have a process for arbitrating them which potentially significaly complicates things and leaves lots of room for acrimony. I think it is muich simpler to choose judges who share an aesthetic of what a photograph should be and let the the judging process weed out submissions that are out of line. In the end, what is a proper submission for any contest where the judging is subjective is going to be the aesthetic of those who judge it. Having a list rules won't change that.
  • gusgus Major grins Posts: 16,209Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:

    Is this a photography competition or an art competition?

    Charlie

    Is there a difference ??
  • thebigskythebigsky Cloudbusting Posts: 1,117Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    Nikolai wrote:
    It's an art. Period. Painters did it, photogs did it, composers did it, everybody does it. How about removing a stinking powerline? If yes, why not add a star or two?
    Take it easy, do what you want and leave it to the judges. But PLEASE do not impose your personal point of view on how the rest of us should behave.
    Live and let live! Peace! iloveyou.gif

    There's a world of difference between expressing a point of view and imposing it, I'd like to think you're aware of that?

    Peace indeed, despite your overly aggressive post.

    Charlie
  • thebigskythebigsky Cloudbusting Posts: 1,117Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    gus wrote:
    Is there a difference ??

    Maybe I didn't phrase it well, but I think you know what I mean, if it's essentially considered acceptable to create artistic pictures by combining lots of different elements from various photographs then as far as I'm concerned it's not a photography competition and I shall bow out gracefully.

    Charlie
  • Shay StephensShay Stephens Artist in Residence Posts: 3,165Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    Maybe I didn't phrase it well, but I think you know what I mean, if it's essentially considered acceptable to create artistic pictures by combining lots of different elements from various photographs then as far as I'm concerned it's not a photography competition and I shall bow out gracefully.

    Charlie

    You are of course free to do what you want. But there is no need to be hasty about deciding what to do :D

    Well, that is, unless you have a deadline or something, then by all means, be hasty hehehe
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
  • NikolaiNikolai Darth SLR Posts: 19,033Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    There's a world of difference between expressing a point of view and imposing it, I'd like to think you're aware of that?

    Peace indeed, despite your overly aggressive post.

    Charlie

    Dear Charlie,
    as you may or may not know, I was raised and for the long time have lived in USSR during the communist regime. I happen know from my very own personal experience and the experience of my own family and close relatives and friends what does it mean to NOT have a freedom. rolleyes1.gif
    You're suggesting to inflict a strict (and, IMHO unnecessary) limitations - purely artificial, since neither you nor anybody else in the world would even be able to prove that I did what I did unless they use a very expensive and sophisticated hardware/software package - to an ongoing good thing, and that hits on a nerve. deal.gif

    At this point you are free to do whatever you want, post a jpeg straight from the camera or go berserk in InDesign. It's your choice, I'm going to respect that, and if the judges come to choose your work over mine - so be it, I'll either learn InDesign next time or drop off. But I don't want to be disqualified and banned from the possibility of the entry simply because I decided to merge a couple of pictures in one or pull out an aggressive filter.

    Sorry, but your suggestion does not fly with me. You're trying to take my freedom away - I'm not gonna be silent about it.

    "You can take my Photoshop away from me if you pry it from my cold dead fingers" :D

    Once again - peace! iloveyou.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
    Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
    Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
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  • osoiosoi Playing with Fire Posts: 23Registered Users Big grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    As far as I'm concerned a photograph is not a photograph if it contains elements that weren't there when the shutter was released.

    Is this a photography competition or an art competition?

    Charlie

    eek7.gif So for those of us who grew up in actual Darkrooms and used multi-exposures on a single print that isn't a photograph? If it can be done in a darkroom why not on a computer. I mean the way your logic sounds, we shouldn't use filters on the cameras, because they can bring elements to the picture that weren't there. As long as its all your work, who cares what you do to process the picture.
  • NikolaiNikolai Darth SLR Posts: 19,033Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    osoi wrote:
    eek7.gif So for those of us who grew up in actual Darkrooms and used multi-exposures on a single print that isn't a photograph? If it can be done in a darkroom why not on a computer. I mean the way your logic sounds, we shouldn't use filters on the cameras, because they can bring elements to the picture that weren't there. As long as its all your work, who cares what you do to process the picture.

    Sorry, looks like no CP or gel filter for you, my friend, since it's not real... mwink.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
    Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
    Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
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  • thebigskythebigsky Cloudbusting Posts: 1,117Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    osoi wrote:
    eek7.gif So for those of us who grew up in actual Darkrooms and used multi-exposures on a single print that isn't a photograph? If it can be done in a darkroom why not on a computer. I mean the way your logic sounds, we shouldn't use filters on the cameras, because they can bring elements to the picture that weren't there. As long as its all your work, who cares what you do to process the picture.

    You've completely misunderstood my post.

    Charlie
  • thebigskythebigsky Cloudbusting Posts: 1,117Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    You are of course free to do what you want. But there is no need to be hasty about deciding what to do :D

    Well, that is, unless you have a deadline or something, then by all means, be hasty hehehe

    What will be will be, I'm surprised at the level of hostility to my original post, almost every photographer I speak to shares my opinion, maybe it's a cultural thing.

    Charlie
  • thebigskythebigsky Cloudbusting Posts: 1,117Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    Nikolai wrote:

    Sorry, but your suggestion does not fly with me. You're trying to take my freedom away - I'm not gonna be silent about it.

    "You can take my Photoshop away from me if you pry it from my cold dead fingers" :D

    Once again - peace! iloveyou.gif

    Talk about an over reaction, good grief, calm down.

    Charlie
  • NikolaiNikolai Darth SLR Posts: 19,033Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    almost every photographer I speak to shares my opinion,
    Apparently, it's not the case if you speak to a larger and/or more heterogeneous audience
    thebigsky wrote:
    maybe it's a cultural thing
    If you add "multi-" to "cultural" - we'll be in a total agreement nod.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
    Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
    Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
    member: NAPP, PPA, partner: Adobe
    Comprehending life, universe and everything - one pixel at a time
  • NikolaiNikolai Darth SLR Posts: 19,033Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    Talk about an over reaction, good grief, calm down.

    Charlie

    Trust me, mate - I'm calm. You'd need to bring the PC/Mac thingie here to get me really started rolleyes1.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
    Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
    Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
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  • thebigskythebigsky Cloudbusting Posts: 1,117Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    Nik,

    Is a montage a photograph, or a photograph a montage or is a montage a montage and a photograph a photograph?

    Charlie
  • Gary GlassGary Glass Picture Reality Posts: 744Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    Context is everything. There are lots of reasons for making photographs. For a journalist to composite a picture might constitute a breach of professional ethics. For an ad shot, to fail to composite a photo could be a breach of contract. For an artist ... again, there is a very wide range of assumptions and purposes. As for the curators of a gallery, it's the prerogative of contest designers and judges to establish their ground rules. I wouldn't enter a photoshop contest because that kind of work doesn't interest me. I wouldn't enter a street photography contest for the same reason. Though I might enjoy what others did in either case. But I'm not doing LPS because I don't have time! (Also, I'd be way out of my class. Gotta box your weight.) Still, I'm enjoying what the participants are submitting. Great stuff.
  • NikolaiNikolai Darth SLR Posts: 19,033Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    Nik,

    Is a montage a photograph, or a photograph a montage or is a montage a montage and a photograph a photograph?

    Charlie

    Now you're talking my native language:-)
    beer.gif ? lol3.gif
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
    Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
    Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
    member: NAPP, PPA, partner: Adobe
    Comprehending life, universe and everything - one pixel at a time
  • RobertRobert Major grins Posts: 148Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    rddphotos wrote:
    Part of photography is being in the right place at the right time.

    I've never considered composite photos to be a photograph but more of an artistic expression, by combing multiple photos to convey a message and I don't think they should be allowed in this contest.

    At some point a photography that has been Photoshopped eventually falls into this realm, but defining this line would be difficult.
    Sorry rddphotos, but the first thing anybody should do when joining any forum is to read the rules and find out as much about the forum as possible. I spent 2 weeks reading rules and browsing this forum before I joined in at all.

    I am a very 'traditional' type photographer myself and haven’t got a hope in hell to stay standing in this competition. But if nothing else this competition will dust off some cobwebs of the old brain. It most certainly puts the brain into motion. You learn to think in a different way here. And you also learn to take some well mannered abuse, generally known as criticism, which is only half as bad as what you get in the real world.
    Robert
  • Shay StephensShay Stephens Artist in Residence Posts: 3,165Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    Nik,

    Is a montage a photograph, or a photograph a montage or is a montage a montage and a photograph a photograph?

    Charlie

    But...how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Find the answer to that, and you have all the answers to everything mwink.gif
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
  • osoiosoi Playing with Fire Posts: 23Registered Users Big grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    Charlie,

    Please correct me then. Are you saying that Multi-Exposured Prints should not be consider photographs? One of the first things I was taught was altering photos by playing with the processing of them in a darkroom. To me, it sounds like that you think I wasn't learning photography. I really dont know who you are talking to but all the photographers I know see nothing wrong with touching up photos.
  • osoiosoi Playing with Fire Posts: 23Registered Users Big grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    Gary Glass wrote:
    Context is everything. There are lots of reasons for making photographs. For a journalist to composite a picture might constitute a breach of professional ethics. For an ad shot, to fail to composite a photo could be a breach of contract. For an artist ... again, there is a very wide range of assumptions and purposes.

    See I agree with this... It does come down to context.. and with having abstract themes to work with, one would lean that a journalist style might not be the best idea...
  • LiquidAirLiquidAir Major grins Posts: 1,751Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    thebigsky wrote:
    Nik,

    Is a montage a photograph, or a photograph a montage or is a montage a montage and a photograph a photograph?

    Charlie

    Is a triptych a montage?

    I think if we all looked at images together we would agree most of the time on what is appropriate and what isn't. However, I think there is a grey area in there that would be hard to legislate.
  • RobertRobert Major grins Posts: 148Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 28, 2007
    rddphotos wrote:
    Part of photography is being in the right place at the right time.

    I've never considered composite photos to be a photograph but more of an artistic expression, by combing multiple photos to convey a message and I don't think they should be allowed in this contest.

    At some point a photography that has been Photoshopped eventually falls into this realm, but defining this line would be difficult.
    Robert wrote:
    Sorry rddphotos, but the first thing anybody should do when joining any forum is to read the rules and find out as much about the forum as possible. I spent 2 weeks reading rules and browsing this forum before I joined in at all.

    I am a very 'traditional' type photographer myself and haven’t got a hope in hell to stay standing in this competition. But if nothing else this competition will dust off some cobwebs of the old brain. It most certainly puts the brain into motion. You learn to think in a different way here. And you also learn to take some well mannered abuse, generally known as criticism, which is only half as bad as what you get in the real world.

    Excuse me for just missing live, again. Just missed the fact that many hours have passed and the world could have possibly succumbed a nuc-ex. Well, reading through the posts that appeared since before I finally got to post my comment, it wasn’t far from it. :D

    Thanks all, enjoyed reading the discussion. So tell us: what did you say live was all about???
    Robert
  • rddphotosrddphotos Always Shooting Posts: 31Registered Users Big grins
    edited April 29, 2007
    Robert wrote:
    Sorry rddphotos, but the first thing anybody should do when joining any forum is to read the rules and find out as much about the forum as possible. I spent 2 weeks reading rules and browsing this forum before I joined in at all.

    I am a very 'traditional' type photographer myself and haven’t got a hope in hell to stay standing in this competition. But if nothing else this competition will dust off some cobwebs of the old brain. It most certainly puts the brain into motion. You learn to think in a different way here. And you also learn to take some well mannered abuse, generally known as criticism, which is only half as bad as what you get in the real world.

    no problem, I went through the rules, with the main item being stressed is that the photograph was taken during the time frame of the competition.

    My question wasn't directed towards HDR images (multiple exposure) or utilizing filters in photoshop to help bring out the image in photoshop, hell even if an image has been layered with the top layer modified and then masked to bring some part of the image from the lower layer. These are all things that to one extent was capable of being done in the dark room.

    I was really going towards was entries that have taken multiple images of completely different scene and elements and having this combined into one image, regardless if they we're all photographed during the time frame of the contest. This clearly falls in to Art and this contest is last photographer stand and not last artist standing.

    For example, there are many times where I see a great evening scene here in Los Angeles while I am driving from a high view point location and I think how great it would be to have a full moon in the background. So should I shoot landscape scene with a 28mm then wait a few days and take a shoot of the moon with my 400mm then composite this in Photoshop. Ethicially I would have a problem entering this in a photography contest. For me it's about being in the right place at the right time to make and capture the shoot. :D
  • NikolaiNikolai Darth SLR Posts: 19,033Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 29, 2007
    rddphotos wrote:
    For example, there are many times where I see a great evening scene here in Los Angeles while I am driving from a high view point location and I think how great it would be to have a full moon in the background. So should I shoot landscape scene with a 28mm then wait a few days and take a shoot of the moon with my 400mm then composite this in Photoshop. Ethicially I would have a problem entering this in a photography contest. For me it's about being in the right place at the right time to make and capture the shoot. :D

    Marc (Muench that is) shared with us one image and the story about it during the Yosemite shootout. The image was taken somewhere way up North and it depicts a majestic landscape with a gorgeous full moon on top of it. Marc was kind enough to spill the secret: he took the shot of the landscape, then turned 180 and (it was film days) took another shot, now of the moon, trying to superimpose it against the sky portion from the previous frame.

    Shot is plain gorgeous. And it's a single film frame. If you didn't know the story, you wouldn't know it was two exposures.

    Nowadays we can do it in PS. Why limit ourselves?
    But, of course, it's your choice whether to use this technique or not.
    "May the f/stop be with you!"
    Star*Explorer: on Dgrin, home; Master Class: open;
    Class is in session, My Facebook, @DarthSLR, #NiksTips
    member: NAPP, PPA, partner: Adobe
    Comprehending life, universe and everything - one pixel at a time
  • LiquidAirLiquidAir Major grins Posts: 1,751Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 29, 2007
    I used to have a mask I would use to cover first one side of the lens and then the other for mutiple exposures. I used it for a series of portaits where the subject appeared twice in the frame. The lens mask is not a precision instrument so when I needed something more sophisticated I would create sophotictated masks using contact prints on high contrast film and then do my composite with multiple exposures on a slide copy stand. My 5D doesn't allow multiple exposures so if I want it today, I have to do it in Photoshop.

    That said, I find those kinds of effects much less interesting now because they are so easy today that they have become commonplace. One of the reasons I have started working with glass for my more exotic shots is that composites with glass are hard to do well in Photoshop so there is still some interest catching the full scene in camera.
  • rddphotosrddphotos Always Shooting Posts: 31Registered Users Big grins
    edited April 29, 2007
    Nikolai wrote:
    Marc (Muench that is) shared with us one image and the story about it during the Yosemite shootout. The image was taken somewhere way up North and it depicts a majestic landscape with a gorgeous full moon on top of it. Marc was kind enough to spill the secret: he took the shot of the landscape, then turned 180 and (it was film days) took another shot, now of the moon, trying to superimpose it against the sky portion from the previous frame.

    Shot is plain gorgeous. And it's a single film frame. If you didn't know the story, you wouldn't know it was two exposures.

    Nowadays we can do it in PS. Why limit ourselves?
    But, of course, it's your choice whether to use this technique or not.


    Double exposure's are alot of fun and I enjoyed doing them when I did use film, but superimposing multiple images to make one, shouldn't belong in a photography contest. If that's the case then I might as well let a few retouchers I know that work for the large movie studio's producing the images you see for the blockbuster movie, grab their point and shoot and then composite some of the images together in Photoshop for about 20 hours creating a surreal image. I'm sure a few of them could use the prize money.
  • Shay StephensShay Stephens Artist in Residence Posts: 3,165Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 29, 2007
    rddphotos wrote:
    I might as well let a few retouchers I know that work for the large movie studio's producing the images you see for the blockbuster movie, grab their point and shoot and then composite some of the images together in Photoshop for about 20 hours creating a surreal image.

    Send em' over, they are more than welcome to join! :D
    Creator of Dgrin's "Last Photographer Standing" contest
    "Failure is feedback. And feedback is the breakfast of champions." - fortune cookie
  • RobertRobert Major grins Posts: 148Registered Users Major grins
    edited April 29, 2007
    rddphotos wrote:
    no problem, I went through the rules, with the main item being stressed is that the photograph was taken during the time frame of the competition.

    My question wasn't directed towards HDR images (multiple exposure)....

    I was really going towards was entries that have taken multiple images of completely different scene and elements and having this combined into one image, regardless if they we're all photographed during the time frame of the contest. This clearly falls in to Art and this contest is last photographer stand and not last artist standing.
    I would agree with you that if the image must originate from the given timeframe (hence importance of exif), all images used in the composition should be taken during that same period.
    For example, there are many times where I see a great evening scene here in Los Angeles while I am driving from a high view point location and I think how great it would be to have a full moon in the background. So should I shoot landscape scene with a 28mm then wait a few days and take a shoot of the moon with my 400mm then composite this in Photoshop. Ethicially I would have a problem entering this in a photography contest.
    There is no ethical problem here. You are asked and encouraged to do anything you see appropriate to your picture. You are not cheating the rules. Your problem seems more that you can not accept the rules.

    I won’t be able to enter this time, because I am not mentally flexible enough to come up with an alternative image. I have a fixed shot in my head, but can not find my target. I could be arguing that it is not right to insist on the picture being taken at the given period, because I may have the perfect entry already taken last month. But those are the rules for this contest. By entering a contest you accept the rules.
    For me it's about being in the right place at the right time to make and capture the shoot.
    I totally agree in principal. I only use PSE for the basics myself. The most drastic I do is cropping and colour enhancements. But I still enjoy the challenge.

    I don’t like country music, so I don’t go to a country music concert. Get It?
    Robert
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