High School athletics Sales ???

jbr13jbr13 Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
edited March 11, 2007 in Sports
I am thinking of taking shots of local school sport and submitting them to the local newspaper. I want to put some picture on my smugmug page for sale, so parents can get 8X10's of their kids. My big question is on the sale of these pictures. I am not selling them for commercial use, so I don't believe there is any issue with not having a release from the person in the image. Am I right or wrong on this??

Jason
Jason

http://jbr.smugmug.com/

"When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice"

Comments

  • ian408ian408 Administrators Posts: 21,942 moderator
    edited March 9, 2007
    If you were shooting for a media outlet, maybe. But once you put them up for sale on your site, it becomes commercial.

    I'm sure others will have a more accurate assessment.
    Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
  • mmahoneymmahoney Registered Users Posts: 33 Big grins
    edited March 9, 2007
    You really have to get authorization from the sponsoring association before starting to shoot & sell to the parents or athletes.
    Mike
  • donekdonek Registered Users Posts: 655 Major grins
    edited March 9, 2007
    jbr13 wrote:
    I am thinking of taking shots of local school sport and submitting them to the local newspaper. I want to put some picture on my smugmug page for sale, so parents can get 8X10's of their kids. My big question is on the sale of these pictures. I am not selling them for commercial use, so I don't believe there is any issue with not having a release from the person in the image. Am I right or wrong on this??

    Jason

    I shoot for the local paper in a rural area. During regular season games, there is little reenforcement of the use of press passes. Most of the booster club people collecting payment at the door recognize me and let me in knowing why I am there. When you shoot for press purposes, there is no need to get model releases. If you then turn around and try to sell those images that the paper doesn't print, I think you're skating on thin ice. I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that there's a conflict of interest there. In addition, by shooting as press and then selling to private individuals, you've falsely represented your purpose.

    At the very least, you need to speak with the school administration or athletic department to find out if they have any regulations regarding such activities. There may be someone else contracted to do this sort of work, or they may have a need for parents to be notified of your endevors so they don't think some psycho is taking pictures of their kids.
    Sean Martin
    www.seanmartinphoto.com

    __________________________________________________
    it's not the size of the lens that matters... It's how you focus it.

    aaaaa.... who am I kidding!

    whoever dies with the biggest coolest piece of glass, wins!
  • jbr13jbr13 Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited March 10, 2007
    Donek, I am new to a lot of the buisness side, so I may be wrong on some of this, but I am not sure on the conflict of interest. I have heard of National Geographic Photographers selling the images NG doesn't use to Stock agencies. I am also not working for any news media, and do not have a press pass. I have been in contact with the schools and getting permission from them to shot at their events. I told them the images would be for me to build a portfolio and try to submitt to local media. There isn't much photo coverage around my area for sports in the paper or on local media websites. The idea of selling the 8X10 prints came from one of the Athletics Directors/Lacrosse Coach.

    I have read that the release is only needed for commercial use and by commercial it mean if I am selling to a company that will use the image for advertising for them or a product.


    Maybe this will give a little better idea of where I am at on this. Any Ideas out there???

    Thanks for the advice and comments!

    Jason


    donek wrote:
    I shoot for the local paper in a rural area. During regular season games, there is little reenforcement of the use of press passes. Most of the booster club people collecting payment at the door recognize me and let me in knowing why I am there. When you shoot for press purposes, there is no need to get model releases. If you then turn around and try to sell those images that the paper doesn't print, I think you're skating on thin ice. I'm no lawyer, but it seems to me that there's a conflict of interest there. In addition, by shooting as press and then selling to private individuals, you've falsely represented your purpose.

    At the very least, you need to speak with the school administration or athletic department to find out if they have any regulations regarding such activities. There may be someone else contracted to do this sort of work, or they may have a need for parents to be notified of your endevors so they don't think some psycho is taking pictures of their kids.
    Jason

    http://jbr.smugmug.com/

    "When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice"
  • DblDbl Registered Users Posts: 230 Major grins
    edited March 10, 2007
    jbr13 wrote:
    Donek, I am new to a lot of the buisness side, so I may be wrong on some of this, but I am not sure on the conflict of interest. I have heard of National Geographic Photographers selling the images NG doesn't use to Stock agencies. I am also not working for any news media, and do not have a press pass. I have been in contact with the schools and getting permission from them to shot at their events. I told them the images would be for me to build a portfolio and try to submitt to local media. There isn't much photo coverage around my area for sports in the paper or on local media websites. The idea of selling the 8X10 prints came from one of the Athletics Directors/Lacrosse Coach.

    I have read that the release is only needed for commercial use and by commercial it mean if I am selling to a company that will use the image for advertising for them or a product.


    Maybe this will give a little better idea of where I am at on this. Any Ideas out there???

    Thanks for the advice and comments!

    Jason


    You are correct Jason, you don't need a release in these situations and you have already taken the first step in correctly obtaining permission. My only concern is do you want to start selling photos when you are "learning"? I think there is a difference in the style of shooting for a portfolio or media and what you will do when you are looking for parent sales. I do both and my content for both is definitely not the same.


    What are you going to charge while you are learning? Learn to take the shots, build your portfolio and then look at the sales aspect. Too many folks think it is ok to jump in and provide a product for little or no cost while they learn. Provide professional quality shots and charge as a professional, don't sell yourself short, and everyone will be happier in the end. The customer gets a quality photo and you get to save up for that next big lens purchase:D
    Dan

    Canon Gear
  • johngjohng Registered Users Posts: 1,658 Major grins
    edited March 10, 2007
    Jason,

    you're going about this the right way. I would just make sure you let the AD know you are also planning on selling to the parents since you have decided to include that as well. As long as the administration is aware and gives you permission, all is well. Realize, however, officials have the final say - so an umpire at a baseball/softball game may refuse to allow you on the field.

    As for trying to sell while still learning - here's my take on things. Success in this type of venture is 90% marketing and 10% skill. If people are willing to buy your product now, no reason not to provide it. Sure it would be nice to have a few years experience under your belt but the honest truth is - for your type of business venture, it just isn't as necessary. You already stated you don't have much of a supply there - so whatever you can provide will be better than what is currently available. Being the first one to supply the demand allows you to build the relationships that will be essential for your success.

    So, as long as the AD is aware of what you're really doing (i.e. not just building a portfolio but selling as well) and you are confident you know what you're doing then go for it.

    If I listened to nay-sayers I wouldn't have started a similar venture and payed off my sigma 120-300 2.8 and saved up enough money in the last year to buy the new 1d mkIII when it comes out in a couple months.
  • MichaelKirkMichaelKirk Registered Users Posts: 427 Major grins
    edited March 10, 2007
    Contact the AD FIRST!
    If you are planning on selling these photos - you better contact the school first (athletic Director) and obtain permission. MOST of the time you will be required to get a model release from all the students. Each scholl is different. I am actually in the middle of doing this - contacted the scholl over the winter and am meeting with the bosters club this week. Hoping to start taking pictures in the next week ot two as long as I do not hit any snags. I have the ok from the school AD, just now need to rund it by the boosters club. I was allowed to waive the model release for now since the athletics forms have already gone out. I will be required to get the permission forms in the fall which will be sent out with the physical notices.

    Michael
    www.MLKimages.com



    jbr13 wrote:
    I am thinking of taking shots of local school sport and submitting them to the local newspaper. I want to put some picture on my smugmug page for sale, so parents can get 8X10's of their kids. My big question is on the sale of these pictures. I am not selling them for commercial use, so I don't believe there is any issue with not having a release from the person in the image. Am I right or wrong on this??

    Jason
  • KMCCKMCC Registered Users Posts: 717 Major grins
    edited March 11, 2007
    Just my $.02 based on my experience. Your best friends in these situations are the Booster Club officers. They've served as my liaison with the school's coaches and Athletic Director; gaining access for me to the field and sidelines.

    When asked, I will provide a couple of shots from games to the Booster Clubs and allow them to be responsible for releasing the photographs to the local media.

    This past Friday night, I was on the sidelines shooting two soccer games at a local high school (metro-Atlanta; 2,000+ students) when the school's principal walked up. I asked him if he had any concerns about photographs from games being released to the local newspapers. He said "No" and indicated that he saw that as a means to promote the school and its teams.

    Apparently there is a "Do Not Publish" list that players can request to be placed on which would prohibit the publication of any photographs of them, but the principal indicated that he'd never known of any case where that became an issue.

    Kent
    "Not everybody trusts paintings, but people believe photographs."- Ansel Adams
    Web site
  • NimaiNimai Registered Users Posts: 564 Major grins
    edited March 11, 2007
    Socializing (ok, schmoozing) is your best bet, I agree.
    What really worked for me is coordinating with the school booster clubs and/or district non-profit school fund raising organizations. I set it up so that I donate a healthy percentage of my SmugMug sales to the schools, and in exchange, they promote me every chance they get! This isn't my full-time job, so I'm able to donate a lot, but even if you were to donate something like %10, I think your increase in volume and credibility would more than make up for it.
  • jbr13jbr13 Registered Users Posts: 251 Major grins
    edited March 11, 2007
    Thank you all very much for you advice and suggestion! This site has a great buch of people! Thanks again.

    Jason


    Nimai wrote:
    Socializing (ok, schmoozing) is your best bet, I agree.
    What really worked for me is coordinating with the school booster clubs and/or district non-profit school fund raising organizations. I set it up so that I donate a healthy percentage of my SmugMug sales to the schools, and in exchange, they promote me every chance they get! This isn't my full-time job, so I'm able to donate a lot, but even if you were to donate something like %10, I think your increase in volume and credibility would more than make up for it.
    Jason

    http://jbr.smugmug.com/

    "When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced... Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice"
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