Taking Color to the Next Level at Dgrin
Andy
Registered Users Posts: 50,016 Major grins
:wave Hi everyone 
So, for a while now, I've in discussions with world-renowned Photoshop Expert Dan Margulis with the object of hosting Dan's Applied Color Theory (ACT) discussion group as a Dgrin forum.
Currently, this is hosted as a text-only email Yahoo! Group, which you must subscribe to. Now, these discussions have
advanced to the point that Dan has proposed this move publicly to his group to Dgrin, and has solicited their feedback. In short, Dan proposes to make move in the middle of June and (at least initially) there will be a number of things which will make the ACT forum different from our current forum model, but we hope that over time, as the ACT group becomes familiar with Dgrin, that the new forum will become like the rest of Dgrin.
By moving to dgrin, Dan can reach a wider audience for experiments with new techniques and focus his group on more practical discussions. We feel that this will help advance all of our understanding of Dan's techniques and
thoughts.
Dan's books and classes center on case studies. In fact, his classes are organized around a series of competitions interspersed with demonstrations and lectures. The students are given a group of images and told to make them look as good as possible. Then everyone's (including Dan's and best efforts from previous classes) are compared and winners are chosen by consensus of the class. This methodology has not been mirrored in his ACT list. The text-only format makes it particularly difficult. By comparison, Dgrin has been the home to case studies in nearly exactly this format. Dan has seen this and gives us an A+ on our LAB discussion group and he's thrilled with the in-progress work and discussion so far on our Professional Photoshop 5 group.
Of course there are other more concrete advantages to the ACT list. It currently doesn't allow users to subscribe / unsubscribe to individual threads. It doesn't offer a standardized markup language. And, of course, no smilies :evil
What are the advantages to Dgrin? We want to further the world's understanding of color correction and welcome this opportunity to contribute. The cool discussions will now be right here in our home! We also expect an influx of world class image enhancers and photographers, and we hope they'll contribute elsewhere on Dgrin, too. We're pretty sure this will make for some lively discussions and also that we will see some wonderful new pictures from some of the people in Dan's group. And hopefuly, some tough new competition in our Last Photographer Standing :deal
So the point of this? I wanted you all to know as early on as possible And of course, answer any questions, take feedback, etc. We're still putting everything together, so I don't have all the answers, but I'll do my best :thumb
This is really great, having Dan and his community join our community. :clap :clap :clap
Here's Dan's note to the Applied Color Theory Group:
[imgl]http://dgrin.smugmug.com/photos/145503776-L.jpg[/imgl]Folks,
The management of this list is contemplating moving it away from yahoogroups in favor of being hosted by dgrin.com. We solicit members' opinions as to the desirability of this action, or any suggestions as to what may go wrong if we do it.
The reason for this move is not to change the list's identity--it would continue to be operated by the same group of moderators with most of the same rules, and we can move it elsewhere if this doesn't work out--but to improve the interface and to make the list more convenient to use. Increasing the volume of messages or the number of membersare not motivating factors.
Particularly, we expect the following improvements:
*All messages will be arranged into threads and archived immediately and indefinitely in thread form. To see how this operates, I'd suggest visiting dgrin.com and checking out some of the forums, notably the one entitled "The Finishing School" which deals mostly with Photoshop manipulation. (We would not be merging with this forum but rather operating separately under a different set of rules.)
*As can be seen, each member has a signature block. In light of this list's strong tradition against anonymous posting, we will require that the block contain (in small print) the member's full name. This will eliminate the practice of rejecting posts for lack of a signature.
*We are given to understand that in addition to the current general options that members have for receiving messages (receive all messages, a digest of all messages at specified intervals, or no messages--must go to the site) we will also be able to override them on a thread-by-thread basis. That is, a person who otherwise would not be receiving every message may find a certain thread particularly interesting and subscribe to it so that all messages will be sent to him when posted. A person who otherwise receives all messages may decide that a particular thread is not worthwhile and unsubscribe from it. Furthermore, you have the option of designating that you will ignore messages from certain members.
*The list messages support embedded images. High-resolution images are not recommended; also, embedded images can only be sRGB. However, dgrin will provide essentially unlimited space for list members to post images separately in any format.
We have wanted to make these types of changes in list format for some time and have explored the possibility of acquiring suitable software and having ledet.com host the list rather than yahoogroups. All our moderators, however, have busy professional lives and it is time to concede that we would never find time to implement this ourselves. Dgrin approached us; we have great respect for them and they for us. For example, dgrin has run extremely active chapter-by-chapter threads about both Canyon Conundrum and PP5E. Search my name on the dgrin forums and you may reach the conclusion (as I have, with some regret) that there is somewhat more discussion of the topics that this group nominally studies on dgrin than here.
Some things about the prospective move are unknown. For example, we believe, but we are not sure, that we can simply duplicate the membership list with all its preferences and thus avoid requiring everybody to sign up again. Nevertheless, there is likely to be some aggravation at the startup.
We also will be continuing the yahoogroups list at least until it becomes clear that the dgrin list is functioning the way we envisioned, presumably with threads duplicated on both lists for an interim period. Thereafter, we don't know what we'll do with yahoogroups--possibly continue it for special announcements or as a forum specifically for ACT attendees.
What is *not* going to happen is a flood of off-topic posts by new members. The membership has made its preference known for more aggressive moderation. The fact that the new list would be threaded would assist us in keeping marginally off-topic threads going longer than we can now. For example, the recent thread about the qualifications needed for hiring Photoshop technicians was marginally on-topic but we did close it while ideas were being exchanged, on the grounds we could not justify exposing every member to it. If we had been on dgrin we would probably have left the thread open, knowing that people who were not interested could unsubscribe from the thread.
OTOH, while we will continue our policy of allowing established list members to launch brief threads on almost any topic, we will adhere to the practice of ending threads that are becoming extended discussions of matters that are clearly not in our charter, such as topics that are of interest only to photographers, that belong on the ColorSync list, that are limited to specific software and/or hardware outside of Photoshop, or that use the list as a general Photoshop help desk.
As at present, membership in the list would be open to all, but only members would be allowed to access the area. As at present, moderator approval would be required for a post to appear. Depending upon how the situation develops, we might switch to a system where our most active members are whitelisted so that their posts can appear immediately without moderator approval. We do not contemplate allowing strangers to post without moderation.
As indicated last week, I will update the list archives during my trip to Atlanta in early June. This is expected to include the best threads up to around 3/07. I will also add some Makeready columns, as well. Both areas are open to non-members and Sterling has indicated that he intends to keep them available indefinitely; however, future list archives will be hosted by dgrin if we make the move.
I am on the road almost continuously until mid-June. That's likely when we would make the move, which gives us ample time to discuss it.
Thanks in advance to list members for any advice that may be offered, and special thanks to Stephen, Darren, and John for their efforts in keeping the list running smoothly.
Dan Margulis
So, for a while now, I've in discussions with world-renowned Photoshop Expert Dan Margulis with the object of hosting Dan's Applied Color Theory (ACT) discussion group as a Dgrin forum.
Currently, this is hosted as a text-only email Yahoo! Group, which you must subscribe to. Now, these discussions have
advanced to the point that Dan has proposed this move publicly to his group to Dgrin, and has solicited their feedback. In short, Dan proposes to make move in the middle of June and (at least initially) there will be a number of things which will make the ACT forum different from our current forum model, but we hope that over time, as the ACT group becomes familiar with Dgrin, that the new forum will become like the rest of Dgrin.
By moving to dgrin, Dan can reach a wider audience for experiments with new techniques and focus his group on more practical discussions. We feel that this will help advance all of our understanding of Dan's techniques and
thoughts.
Dan's books and classes center on case studies. In fact, his classes are organized around a series of competitions interspersed with demonstrations and lectures. The students are given a group of images and told to make them look as good as possible. Then everyone's (including Dan's and best efforts from previous classes) are compared and winners are chosen by consensus of the class. This methodology has not been mirrored in his ACT list. The text-only format makes it particularly difficult. By comparison, Dgrin has been the home to case studies in nearly exactly this format. Dan has seen this and gives us an A+ on our LAB discussion group and he's thrilled with the in-progress work and discussion so far on our Professional Photoshop 5 group.
Of course there are other more concrete advantages to the ACT list. It currently doesn't allow users to subscribe / unsubscribe to individual threads. It doesn't offer a standardized markup language. And, of course, no smilies :evil
What are the advantages to Dgrin? We want to further the world's understanding of color correction and welcome this opportunity to contribute. The cool discussions will now be right here in our home! We also expect an influx of world class image enhancers and photographers, and we hope they'll contribute elsewhere on Dgrin, too. We're pretty sure this will make for some lively discussions and also that we will see some wonderful new pictures from some of the people in Dan's group. And hopefuly, some tough new competition in our Last Photographer Standing :deal
So the point of this? I wanted you all to know as early on as possible
And of course, answer any questions, take feedback, etc. We're still putting everything together, so I don't have all the answers, but I'll do my best :thumbThis is really great, having Dan and his community join our community. :clap :clap :clap
Here's Dan's note to the Applied Color Theory Group:
[imgl]http://dgrin.smugmug.com/photos/145503776-L.jpg[/imgl]Folks,
![http://dgrin.smugmug.com/photos/145503776-L.jpg[/imgl]](http://dgrin.smugmug.com/photos/145503776-L.jpg[/imgl]){kind=link}
The management of this list is contemplating moving it away from yahoogroups in favor of being hosted by dgrin.com. We solicit members' opinions as to the desirability of this action, or any suggestions as to what may go wrong if we do it.
The reason for this move is not to change the list's identity--it would continue to be operated by the same group of moderators with most of the same rules, and we can move it elsewhere if this doesn't work out--but to improve the interface and to make the list more convenient to use. Increasing the volume of messages or the number of membersare not motivating factors.
Particularly, we expect the following improvements:
*All messages will be arranged into threads and archived immediately and indefinitely in thread form. To see how this operates, I'd suggest visiting dgrin.com and checking out some of the forums, notably the one entitled "The Finishing School" which deals mostly with Photoshop manipulation. (We would not be merging with this forum but rather operating separately under a different set of rules.)
*As can be seen, each member has a signature block. In light of this list's strong tradition against anonymous posting, we will require that the block contain (in small print) the member's full name. This will eliminate the practice of rejecting posts for lack of a signature.
*We are given to understand that in addition to the current general options that members have for receiving messages (receive all messages, a digest of all messages at specified intervals, or no messages--must go to the site) we will also be able to override them on a thread-by-thread basis. That is, a person who otherwise would not be receiving every message may find a certain thread particularly interesting and subscribe to it so that all messages will be sent to him when posted. A person who otherwise receives all messages may decide that a particular thread is not worthwhile and unsubscribe from it. Furthermore, you have the option of designating that you will ignore messages from certain members.
*The list messages support embedded images. High-resolution images are not recommended; also, embedded images can only be sRGB. However, dgrin will provide essentially unlimited space for list members to post images separately in any format.
We have wanted to make these types of changes in list format for some time and have explored the possibility of acquiring suitable software and having ledet.com host the list rather than yahoogroups. All our moderators, however, have busy professional lives and it is time to concede that we would never find time to implement this ourselves. Dgrin approached us; we have great respect for them and they for us. For example, dgrin has run extremely active chapter-by-chapter threads about both Canyon Conundrum and PP5E. Search my name on the dgrin forums and you may reach the conclusion (as I have, with some regret) that there is somewhat more discussion of the topics that this group nominally studies on dgrin than here.
Some things about the prospective move are unknown. For example, we believe, but we are not sure, that we can simply duplicate the membership list with all its preferences and thus avoid requiring everybody to sign up again. Nevertheless, there is likely to be some aggravation at the startup.
We also will be continuing the yahoogroups list at least until it becomes clear that the dgrin list is functioning the way we envisioned, presumably with threads duplicated on both lists for an interim period. Thereafter, we don't know what we'll do with yahoogroups--possibly continue it for special announcements or as a forum specifically for ACT attendees.
What is *not* going to happen is a flood of off-topic posts by new members. The membership has made its preference known for more aggressive moderation. The fact that the new list would be threaded would assist us in keeping marginally off-topic threads going longer than we can now. For example, the recent thread about the qualifications needed for hiring Photoshop technicians was marginally on-topic but we did close it while ideas were being exchanged, on the grounds we could not justify exposing every member to it. If we had been on dgrin we would probably have left the thread open, knowing that people who were not interested could unsubscribe from the thread.
OTOH, while we will continue our policy of allowing established list members to launch brief threads on almost any topic, we will adhere to the practice of ending threads that are becoming extended discussions of matters that are clearly not in our charter, such as topics that are of interest only to photographers, that belong on the ColorSync list, that are limited to specific software and/or hardware outside of Photoshop, or that use the list as a general Photoshop help desk.
As at present, membership in the list would be open to all, but only members would be allowed to access the area. As at present, moderator approval would be required for a post to appear. Depending upon how the situation develops, we might switch to a system where our most active members are whitelisted so that their posts can appear immediately without moderator approval. We do not contemplate allowing strangers to post without moderation.
As indicated last week, I will update the list archives during my trip to Atlanta in early June. This is expected to include the best threads up to around 3/07. I will also add some Makeready columns, as well. Both areas are open to non-members and Sterling has indicated that he intends to keep them available indefinitely; however, future list archives will be hosted by dgrin if we make the move.
I am on the road almost continuously until mid-June. That's likely when we would make the move, which gives us ample time to discuss it.
Thanks in advance to list members for any advice that may be offered, and special thanks to Stephen, Darren, and John for their efforts in keeping the list running smoothly.
Dan Margulis
0
Comments
A fantastic addition to dgrin! First class!
Well done, Andy et al.
And welcome, Dan, Rutt and co.
One question: I note the requirement for having full name beside avatar. Does that mean that current dgrin members will only be able to view, not post, if we choose not to put our full names in public?
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
And to clarify, it's in the signature, not the Avatar saying. Nor does the Dgrin username have to be the full name of the user.
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That's a boatload of great news! I, for one, welcome our new Color Theory overlords, to (mis)quote Mike Lane.
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I'm optimistic about it, but I wanted to be as clear about the situation as possible.
Dan's announcement sounds like it is possible, but I myself cannot find any configurations in my Dgrin account's Control Panel options to set a thread or even an entire forum to be sent as emails or as a daily email digest.
There are a significant number of current members who would absolutely require *complete* email list-serve-type operation. (Or at least after possibly only an initial trip to the website to set it up.)
Would you please reply whether the Dgrin board's software can be made to do so?
Receiving a daily digest of posts is deemed essential to several members who like to browse posts over a cup of coffee in the morning, or catch up on posts while killing time at airports. The number who demand this is small but vocal.
As with all forums, the color theory list frequently gets off topic. For those who have followed (or tried to follow) the LAB and PE5 discussions and reviews here, you can get a "tip of the iceberg" view of the complexity of material that can pop up for discussion. Dan travels extensively and is not often available for comment, but there are several moderators and many members who are extremely knowledgable about the techniques involved in Dan's writing. It should raise the bar at dgrin if the majority of members make the switch. A related concern is, however, that the level of discussion may suffer from dilution of the professional membership with more inexperienced posters asking questions that have been hashed over for years. The archives from Dan's list are enormous and extensive. For this reason, I would expect a greater level of control on this group, if it moves to dgrin.
In the end, we all should gain. I've voted to move.
Dan thought of that, discussed it at length with me, and we believe we have that nut cracked
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But to summarize, by "require," they're not so much referring to *can't* do anything but email, but rather to it being inconvenient, or a departure from their workflow alongside all the other listserves they subscribe to, or being too busy to get involved with a board, or a number of other reasons.
You really ought to see for yourself in their own words by perusing the past few days messages on ACT:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/colortheory/messages
Many of them are quite adament about it, and some of them would leave the list, constituting a great loss of their contributions.
As we all know, many photo-pros are very set in their ways. Disruption of an established workflow has economic consequences to many of them, and changing the status quo can be threatening. I think it will work. Dan's group would truly raise things to another level. Most significant posters there have been participants for many years, and the group is tightly moderated. I suspect there will be some grumbling, but few will defect.
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--
Edit: Oops, I spoke too soon. I just saw Andy's answer to my question over on ACT:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/colortheory/message/17344
It's here: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/colortheory/message/17344
Oh and essentially, I am the programmer
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