Questions on Fill Flash
So I am trying to figure out how to get the "Fill Flash" on my Nikon SB800 to work in direct sunlight. I have the camera set to ISO200, Aperture Priority at F4, and the SB800 set at "TTL-BL" for Balanced Fill Flash.
I took some pics today with the sun directly overhead, to simulate an upcoming event I will be shooting at in the middle of the day. I am certain I am doing something wrong, as the results *with* the flash are totally unacceptable.
Here is a pic without any flash at all. The light is too contrasty for my taste:
Now here is a picture with the SB800 enabled in "Balanced Fill" mode, at 0ev of compensation on the flash:
And finally, here is a photo with the flash set to -3ev of compensation on the flash:
Both of the photos with flash turned on are terribly over-exposed, so the "automatic" fill flash feature (even when I use -3ev of flash) just isn't working correctly.
I realize this is probably user error on my part. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what I might be doing wrong?
Thanks!
- Brian
I took some pics today with the sun directly overhead, to simulate an upcoming event I will be shooting at in the middle of the day. I am certain I am doing something wrong, as the results *with* the flash are totally unacceptable.
Here is a pic without any flash at all. The light is too contrasty for my taste:
Now here is a picture with the SB800 enabled in "Balanced Fill" mode, at 0ev of compensation on the flash:
And finally, here is a photo with the flash set to -3ev of compensation on the flash:
Both of the photos with flash turned on are terribly over-exposed, so the "automatic" fill flash feature (even when I use -3ev of flash) just isn't working correctly.
I realize this is probably user error on my part. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what I might be doing wrong?
Thanks!
- Brian
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I do now!
Using Fill Flash in bright sunlight at ISO 200, will require a VERY fast shutter speed - much higher than the native max shutter speed with flash, which is probably about 1/250th or maybe 1/500th on a Nikon. ( I shoot white lenses- sorry ) but the fact remains that you will require High Speed Synch ( the ability to synch your flash with a focal plane shutter speed of 1/100th or 1/2000th) to limit your exposure time in bright sunlight.
Think of it this way - what is the proper exposure without flash for a sunlit subject at ISO 200?
Answer f16 1/200th sec - any additional light - like from a flash - will overexpose, unless the shutter speed is shorter/faster than 1/200th or whatever is Nikon's native max flash synch speed. A larger aperture, like f8, will require even higher shutter speeds, before adding flash for the shadows.
But most focal plane shutters are not fully open - the whole sensor completely exposed - at shutter speeds shorter than ~1/250th or so. That means an electronic flash must flash numerous times over the short interval the shutter is open, not just once. This is called High Speed Synch or (used to be called Focal Plane Synch on some cameras that used flash bulbs.)
I am sure some of our Nikons shooters can explain how to do this with a Nikon camera. Nikonians say that Nikon has better flash control than Canon even:D
The exposure for sunlit subjects out of doors I got from this thread
Two threads for Fill Flash for Canon lovers can be seen here and here
Do not think I am suggesting abandoning fill flash - I am not - I use it in sunlight frequently also. Good job for trying to use it. I know that Canon cameras default to a max synch shutter speed of 1/200th or 1/250th ( depends on the body) UNLESS High Speed SYnch is turned on. DO you have the exif data for these pictures??
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Also ensure you are set to Matrix metering, if you are in spot or centre weighted I think the speedlight will be forced to work in TTL mode not iTTL-BL mode. Are you metering on the subject or the background? if the latter it may be setting the flash exposure too high.
Thom Hogan has written a definative book on Nikon flash systems, it's out of print at the minute but I believe he is compiling an eBook version with in-depth coverage of teh SB-600 & SB-800.
I was hoping to keep my aperture somewhere around F4, as I want to be able to keep the DOF shallow.
I haven't tried "P" mode, but my concern is that I will lose all control over the aperture. I do have a flash meter that I can use; I didn't try that as of yet.
I guess my bigger concern is that I was under the impression that the D200 with SB800 would make much of this "automatic" (from the standpoint of calculating the proper amount of flash). Perhaps that isn't the case.
- Brian
The exposure compensation is set at 0ev; I only used compensation on the flash itself, to try and bring the light down a bit.
Also, I am using the 3-d matrix metering mode on the camera because when I set the camera to spot-metering, I lose the ability to set the flash to TTL-BL. In addition, it is my understanding that the 3-d matrix metering takes the entire frame into account for metering.
- Brian
So it sounds as if you are saying the problem here is that the D200 reaches its fastest sync speed (which I believe is touted at 1/250, but which I have found to be more like 1/200), and can't go any faster - the result being an overexposed photo.
Hmmm ... I wonder whether the SB800 has such a mode. Time to break out the manual!
Thanks for the advice!
- Brian
Did you already answer why you're using an ISO 0f 200 ? If you're worried about your dof with aperture, then see what happens when you adjust the shutter speed and the ev (to underexpose by 1/2 to 1 stop)
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You are correct there are only 2 places you have total control of the aperture...that is aperture priority and manual....it may come down to the fact that you will need to invest in some neutral density filters, to be able to stay at f4....but that flash meter should be one of your best friends, no matter how intellegent
I agree with the previous reply about making sure your Flash Sync Speed Setting (setting E1) is set to 1/250s (Auto FP) (page 160 in the manual). This should enable your camera to set the high shutter speed required.
As I said Brian, I am a Canon shooter so I have to feel my way along giving advice about a Nikon flash.:D
But from Nikon's website I see that the SB800 has an Auto FP High Speed Synch mode. I think that is what you are looking for.
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I think this just may be the ticket. I did some reading today on the FP High Speed Sync feature. I notice when my sync speed is set to 1/250 in the menu, the camera will not let me select a shutter speed higher than 1/250 while in manual mode. However, when I set the sync speed to 1/250 (FP), I can set much higher shutter speeds.
I will be trying this out in the next couple of days, when I get a chance, but it seems like this is just the ticket. I might be able to return those reflectors I just purchased today
- Brian
Hey, no problem. The reason I stick with Nikon is because of the investment I have in lenses, although (in general) I think they are fairly even. You may have a different (and more educated) opinion!
I have found in my D200 how to set the Auto FP mode, and I think this is going to go a long way towards solving the problem. I will post results!
- Brian
I have some updated photos using the Auto FP Sync mode in my Nikon D200. The option is found under the Custom Setting Menu -> (e) Bracketing / Flash -> (e1) Flash Sync Speed -> 1/250 s (Aufo FP).
Here is the first photo, with no flash at all (for reference):
You can see the effect the sun has (contrast between shadows and highlights) even with a late afternoon sun.
Here is the second photo with the Nikon SB800 in TTL/BL/FP mode, with 0ev of *flash* compensation:
Note that there is still too much flash present, even in FP mode.
Here is the third photo, same mode, but with -1ev of *flash* compensation:
Things looking better - not as much "blow out" occurring.
Here is the fourth photo, same mode, but with -2ev of *flash* compensation:
Even better still. In fact this one looks good enough to me, at least from the standpoint of balancing the flash against the natural light.
Here is the fifth and final picture, same mode, using -3ev of *flash* compensation:
I am definitely more satisfied with the new FP high speed sync mode, as compared to shooting using the original flash settings.
Any comments?
- Brian
I am not exactly clear what mode your Nikon camera ( not flash ) is in. Your flash is in AUTO FP Synch I understand.
The reason for asking, is that in the Canon world at least, I can balance ambient vs flash more effectively by putting the camera in Manual Mode, and the flash in ETTL in High Speed Synch.
That way I have total control over the ambient exposure by varying either the aperture or the shutter speed. When I add flash, I keep aperture constant ( as that controls flash ) and vary the shutter speed as that is the control of ambient lighting.
Think about it this way - aperture affects both ambient and flash light admitted, but shutter speed in high speed synch has no real effect on flash lighting admitted to the sensor because the flash is so brief, but altering the shutter speed will have a significant effect on the amount of ambient light admitted. This is particularly true when you begin to shoot with the flash in TOTAL Manual mode also
It looks like you are getting the fill flash with high speed synch dialed in.
-2 FEC looks like the ticket.
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I personally do not like the balanced BL settings. The flash is adjusting itself to some type of balance which can change from shot to shot. Even the nikon literature does not explain what the flash is using to make these changes. I prefer to use plain old FP mode and manually adjust the flash ep. I find -1.3 works for my camera and my style.
Try it, see what you think.
gary
gchappel
Thanks, CookieS. I do shoot in Aperture-priority mode, just because I am not quite as comfortable in manual mode at this point.
- Brian
Right now I am shooting in aperture-priority, and letting the camera determine the shutter speed for me.
Not sure what ETTL is on the Canon, but I suspect the Nikon FP High Speed mode is the same as your High Speed Sync.
I have read the same thing elsewhere, but what confuses me is that a higher shutter speed is what appears to allow me to get a good balance between the flash and the ambient light. I am still shooting at F4, but the shutter speed is up around 1/1000s (at ISO 100).
The problem I had before, I believe, is that the shutter speed was much slower, and therefore I was getting more flash. By going to FP mode I was able to move beyond the 1/250s shutter speed.
Ah, so the effect of the shutter speed as relating to the flash is different in high speed sync mode? That would explain what you said above about being able to change the shutter.
I was thinking it might be nice to slow the shutter down a bit, as the latter photos have lost some of the warmth that the very first photo has (the one with no flash at all).
I think I might try manual mode next!
- Brian
One thing I am concerned with is just that - losing power. I will be shooting an outdoor wedding in August, and the sun will be directly overhead. I am concerned that for some of the larger group shots, where I will no doubt need to step back a bit, that the flash will not be sufficient.
Oh well, I have 4 months to get it right!
- Brian
I must admit I haven't had the time recently to dedicate to getting 100% comfortable with fill flash. Now I have a reason to do so. I am shooting some engagement photos on Saturday morning, outside, and the forecast calls for mostly sunny skies. Sounds like a recipe for disaster if I don't get this figured out by then.
You state above that the shutter speed has no real effect on the flash lighting admitted to the sensor, because the flash is so brief. Now, in some investigative work I have done I have found out that (at least on the Nikon SB800), the high-speed sync mode works by sending out more than one flash, in a quick series. This approach makes sense to me, sort of a "leave the light on" approach to synchronization. You are guaranteed that the flash will be going off when the shutter opens fully because the effective duration of the flash is much higher than normal. Here is what I read on a site that reviewed the SB800 -
AUTO FP High-Speed Sync
The mechanical shutter of the D2H has a flash sync speed of 1/250th sec. The new SB-800 can automatically set itself to FP (Focal Plane) flash mode should camera shutter speed rise above the standard flash sync speed for Balanced Fill Flash in bright light with high shutter speeds or fast aperture lenses.
FP mode outputs a series of smaller continuous flashes that synchronize at up to 1/8000th second with the new Nikon D2H Digital SLR.
So here is my question ... In the latest set of photos I shot, I was pleased with the amount of fill flash in relation to the amount of shadow. However, I was not too pleased with the "quality of light". The photo looks to me as if it was shot using a flash, which is not the effect I want. I really would like to leave the shutter open longer in order to bring in more of the ambient light, but I am concerned that if I do so using high speed sync mode, that I will get an overexposure, just because the flash will be firing over and over again in this mode.
Should I be concerned about this? Maybe I don't need to be - maybe the fact that it will fire over and over again won't impact the exposure; I just don't know.
I am going to try and take some test shots today, if possible, but right now the sky is not cooperating (partially cloudy).
For reference, here is the photo I am most pleased with (flash compensation at -2ev), yet I don't like the fact that I can tell I used a flash.
- Brian
When you shoot a focal plane shutter ( which is the type of shutter found in almost all 35mm type SLR cameras - DSLRs also ), after the shutter speed is set faster than the base flash synch speed - say 1/200th to 1/250th for most cameras - there is no time when the entire shutter is fully open and exposing the entire surface of the sensor.
Instead it is like a curtain at a theatre, where the curtain opens on one side and the other side begins closing before the first curtain has reached the far side of the sensor. It is more like a narrow strip of light passing across the sensor - that is why a single blurst of electronic flash won't work at higher shutter speeds.
Hence, High Speed Synch or as it used to be called Focal Plane Synch - the electronic flash no longer emits a single pulse of light, but a series of bursts of light the persist until the shutter is finally closed. That is why there is a slightly lower Guide number for the flash for High Speed Synch than slower single pulse electronic flash.
To have more ambient light in your shot you need to lengthen the shutter speed or increase the ISO of your camera. As I said earlier, aperture controls the amount of flash exposure, and shutter speed controls ambient light. When shooting in Auto FP High Speed Synch you can also open your aperture and dial back the flash with - FEC to increase the amount of ambient light.
However, what I think you are seeing is that the flash lighting is bluer than the nice warm sunshine of the late afternoon sun. To manage this, you will need an amber gel to warm up the color balance of the electronic flash which tends to be bluer than late afternon sunshine. Or bounce your flash off an Impact gold metallic reflector - that will work nicely also.
You could also use an amber filter, like a Wratten 85 or 81a over your camera lens as well.
There is further discussion of balancing ambient and flash lighting here with comments by myself and our local Pro Shay.
Listen to Shay, lighting is what he does!
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What an excellent thread that was, thanks to you and Shay (and all who participated!) And yes, I think you are right in that what I am noticing is a different in the color (temp?) of the light between the warm sunny background, and the blue flash. I do have a warming gel that came with the SB800 that I can use to match the color temp between the two - I will definitely try that, if the sun ever shines again!
If I may be so bold to ask a few more questions?
- I have been shooting aperture-priority for all of these tests, because I am a bit nervous about manual mode. However, I have noticed a little LED "arrow" sort of thingy (like that description?) in my viewfinder display, that I assume is an exposure-helper sort of thing. I suspect if I set an aperture and then tweak the shutter speed, that this will help me dial in the correct exposure?
- Once I have the correct exposure, just how much slower can I make the shutter to bring in more ambient light? I assume the longer it is open, the more over-exposed the background is going to be, correct? I suspect that means there is a limit as to how far I drag the shutter. I am just thinking out loud on this one, I guess, as I can do some test shots.
- The other thing that sits in the back of my mind is that I am using the SB800 Flash in "auto" (TTL, BL, FP) mode. As this means (I assume) that the flash is adjusting itself with my aperture and shutter settings, it seems the appropriate way to soften the flash is still to use the flash's own ev compensation (as opposed to the camera)?
Well, after checking the forecast it looks as if I might have an opportunity tommorow afternoon after all, to try some of these suggestions out. Thanks again for all the help - I will post more "experiments" as I make them!
- Brian
Monte
The couple were great to work with, and the surrounding was awesome as well (Great Falls, VA). And most importantly, the couple liked what they saw.
Here is a sample shot.
Thanks again to all of you for your help on the fill-flash issue. I will be spending much time over the next few weeks doing more tests, trying to get the technique down pat.
- Brian