Anybody dealt with the Universities?

Nikolai

I know, I know, yet another "how much" question...
But hear me out...
I took a few (hundred) shots on a jazz concert featuring a nearby university band. After I sent the gallery link to the band director I got this in reply:

Your photos are amazing and I would like to use them in our XYZ publications. Is this something that I can arrange with you?
Obviously, we would credit you as photographer and include your service in these publications.
The ABC Foundation would like some photos of our program.
Please advise

So, here goes my oh-so-typical question: What's fair to ask?
Free? Newpaper rate? Ad rate?

I've read the stickies, and the book, and such, but I never dealt with the colleges. :dunno
Does anybody have an applicable experience?

Another question: if getting paid is out of question, what kind of non-monetary compensation can a typical non-IvyLeague college provide?
Mind you, I came to the country way after my MS, so I honestly have NO IDEA how colleges operate funds wise..:scratch

TIA! :thumb

Andy

Colleges have money. I just nailed a nice deal with a business school of a big University System. Hold your ground.

Nikolai

Andy wrote:

Colleges have money. I just nailed a nice deal with a business school of a big University System. Hold your ground.

Thanks, Andy! That's soothing!

luke_church

Nikolai wrote:

I know, I know, yet another "how much" question...
But hear me out...
I took a few (hundred) shots on a jazz concert featuring a nearby university band. After I sent the gallery link to the band director I got this in reply:

Nik,

(UK experience only, and British universities are usually poorer than their American counterparts)

The task is to understand which bit of the university you're dealing with.

At Cambridge, the same organisation varies from very poor to very wealthy, if it's a band managed co-operatively by students (often with a name that makes it sound like they're not), I would usually offer a 20% discount and generous licencing terms, if it's for a university managed band with a national presence looking for publicity images then different conditions might be appropiate.

In short, be careful, universities are bizzare organisations, even within the same building you can find sub-organisations that are rolling in cash, whilst others can't scrape 2 cents together.

I would advise finding out more about your potential client and see what is reasonable for them. Having friends in the right places in the arts centres of a good university can be very profitable

Luke

nipprdog

did the concert take place on the university's property?

urbanaries

If it were for educational purposes, (like instructional manual or article) you may have trouble getting cash. I produce physician education publications for a university and have no problem obtaining copyrights for free from manufacturers and other institutions.

OTOH, when I'm working on marketing pieces, I'm prepared to commission a shoot, or purchase exclusive rights. We just paid several thousand for a rights-managed image in our new ad campaign. It hurt, but we wanted the image THAT BAD.

If they'd use the images in a glossy promotional piece, that is considered commercial use, even if it is to benefit an educational program. Be sure to make this point when they play the 'education' card. As Andy said, they have a budget for this; they're certainly not asking the printer to print a 4C brochure for free (tax exemption, at best).

If $$$ is out of the question (could be, depending on their budget flexibility) I would arrange a very generous advertising trade for the photos use, depending on your needs.

as Luke said, "even within the same building you can find sub-organisations that are rolling in cash, whilst others can't scrape 2 cents together."

Good luck!!!

Nikolai

nipprdog wrote:

did the concert take place on the university's property?

Nope, at a local high school, they were guests..

Nikolai

luke_church wrote:

Nik,

(UK experience only, and British universities are usually poorer than their American counterparts)
...

I would advise finding out more about your potential client and see what is reasonable for them. Having friends in the right places in the arts centres of a good university can be very profitable

Luke

Luke, thank you very much for your input!

Nikolai

Lynne,

urbanaries wrote:

If it were for educational purposes, (like instructional manual or article) you may have trouble getting cash. I produce physician education publications for a university and have no problem obtaining copyrights for free from manufacturers and other institutions.

....

as Luke said, "even within the same building you can find sub-organisations that are rolling in cash, whilst others can't scrape 2 cents together."

Good luck!!!

Great insight, thank you so much!

If you don't mind my asking, here's what I got as a last reply for my request of the usage details:

I create a XYZ Jazz brochure that is distributed to students, teachers and parents. I can see that these performance photos would/could be a focus for next year's brochure.

I duplicate approx 100 brochures at a time - again, they are attractive, but we make no financial gain on them

I would also like to see a couple of these shots on the ABC website. They are one of our sponsors and they want photos that represent what we do.

I can possibly see photos like these within a CD cover.

We are a non-profit organization. Our brochures are given away - our CD's (if we sell them) make no money whatsoever.

Does this ring any bells?

TIA!

urbanaries

Nikolai wrote:

Great insight, thank you so much!

If you don't mind my asking, here's what I got as a last reply for my request of the usage details:



Does this ring any bells?

TIA!

It sounds like they are skirting the issue. Of course, no one sells a brochure, because the brochure is a sales tool in and of itself. Used to build attendance, participation, students etc for the program...and don't forget, a tool to help fundraise (hence the sponsor).

Did they flat out refuse to buy the images? (i hope you have them watermarked in the meantime)

They are a non profit, great. But their building, employees, supplies etc all need to be paid for just like any other business. There is still overhead, and they're going to try to keep costs (YOU) as low as possible.

So the question is, do you have a personal philanthropic interest in seeing your work benefit this program? Because that's what they're hoping.

Nikolai

urbanaries wrote:

It sounds like they are skirting the issue. Of course, no one sells a brochure, because the brochure is a sales tool in and of itself. Used to build attendance, participation, students etc for the program...and don't forget, a tool to help fundraise (hence the sponsor).

Did they flat out refuse to buy the images? (i hope you have them watermarked in the meantime)

Yeah, I got the same feeling...

No, they didn't refuse anything yet, since I didn't name any price yet...
I don't like watermarking much, but I would probably disable Larges in the mean time, good idea! :-)

urbanaries

(not that you asked, just offering my two cents)

I would say "the uses you describe are categorized as promotional/commercial use, which the fee for print and web usage is X amount per image. I am happy to offer a non-profit discount of X percent, and exempt from tax if you provide the ID."

HTH, good luck! let us know how it turns out.

ETA: oh and none of us likes watermarks, but we do like getting paid!

Nikolai

urbanaries wrote:

(not that you asked, just offering my two cents)

I would say "the uses you describe are categorized as promotional/commercial use, which the fee for print and web usage is X amount per image. I am happy to offer a non-profit discount of X percent, and exempt from tax if you provide the ID."

HTH, good luck! let us know how it turns out.

ETA: oh and none of us likes watermarks, but we do like getting paid!

Lynne,

this is great, I'm gonna use this in my next letter!

Yeah, WMs, getting paid.. True, true...

ccpickre

The ABC Website? As in ABC television?

If I'm wrong, ignore what I say.

If not, ABC is LOADED with money, and probably their Golden Egg sponser. Even more so, ABC is owned by Disney, so if they're being sponsered by Walt, they have money to spend. It's called abudget, and they're trying to dick you around so it benefits them. They want YOU to come down, so they can stay under.

The way I see it (and I'm still learning, but I work for the school paper at my school, and our paper is independent, for a reason) they were in public, therefore they can't claim you had no right or obligation to take your photos. You were there, they were there, it's fair game. So they really don't have any leeway for haggling the price. And the sob story about them not making money is BS (as was mentioned).

Hold out, if they really want the photos, they'll buy them, cause no one else has them It's called business. They're haggling you, in hopes that you'll cave. It's just like poker. They're bluffing.

As Andy stated, colleges have money. Ivy league just means spoiled silver spoon kids get in on a legacy (generally). It doesn't mean the school is rich (not anymore at least). I went to a Big 10 school in Indiana, and we may not be Ivy League, but there is a reason IU is considered the most "wired" school for close to 5 years in a row (that I remember). It's because they make money, not to mention donations from rich alum.

Nikolai

ccpickre wrote:

The ABC Website? As in ABC television?
If I'm wrong, ignore what I say.

No, it's not "the ABC", it was simply a moniker, just like XYZ University was.

But thank you for the feedback anyway, appreciate it!

LiquidAir

My instinct is this:

Don't give away the shots unless you really want to. That sets a bad precedent if you ever want to get paid for your shots. However, they are unreleased shots (I assume) which limits what else you can do with them so I wouldn't push too hard on price. If you think there is a possibility of an ongoing relationship with that program, bring that idea up and say something on the order of "$X is what I'd need to be making per photo/shoot to keep doing this."

Nikolai

LiquidAir wrote:

My instinct is this:

Don't give away the shots unless you really want to. That sets a bad precedent if you ever want to get paid for your shots. However, they are unreleased shots (I assume) which limits what else you can do with them so I wouldn't push too hard on price. If you think there is a possibility of an ongoing relationship with that program, bring that idea up and say something on the order of "$X is what I'd need to be making per photo/shoot to keep doing this."

I'm with you on that. Thus far (lifetime) I only gave away a single picture - it was the "cannon blast" you may occasionally see on the banner. But - I gave it to the local rotary club, which is as non-profit as it gets, and I simply considered that as a huge promotional campaign that didn't cost me a dime. I simply provided them with a hires image that beared my logo, they did the printing, the framing, distributing, etc. Now it's on the office walls of many decision makers around the county, so I honestly think this was a good investment. Besides, it also helped me to establish a good relationship with the said rotary, which I also deem invaluable.

Speaking of the university band in question... I replied along the lines Lynne and you brought, essentially saying that while I understand that they are non-profit, my own business is not. I offered them discount, and I offered them a to have separate shoot that would get the better pictures at a lower price (since I can set up lights, move around freely, etc.).

The principal guy is out of town for the weekend, once I hear from him I'll post back.

greenpea

As someone who works for I university, I can tell you we try and get everything as cheap as we can. But I can also tell you the larger institution as a whole has more money to spend on stuff than you would believe.

A department at the unviersity I work for asked me to donate one of the pictures I took of the unviersity. I said I would rather get paid for it, and they agreed (and later told me that they were expecting to have to pay a lot more)

Nikolai

Andrew,

greenpea wrote:

As someone who works for I university, I can tell you we try and get everything as cheap as we can. But I can also tell you the larger institution as a whole has more money to spend on stuff than you would believe.

A department at the unviersity I work for asked me to donate one of the pictures I took of the unviersity. I said I would rather get paid for it, and they agreed (and later told me that they were expecting to have to pay a lot more)

Great to know, thank you for your input!

As of now I learned the following (none of which I knew before):

• Universities/colleges do have money, some more than the others
• Different departments are funded differently, one by Donald Trump, the other by Peggy Sue, even if they "live" in the next offices.
• They all will try to get it as cheap as possible
• Hold the ground. They do pay for some other services (printing, transportation, instruments, etc.), why photography, esp. promotional photography, should be any different.

ccpickre

It's not so much Peggy Sue vs D Trump.

For example, my school, IU.

Our theater department has names like Kevin Kline (sp) to Nicole Parker from MadTV. Our Music and Theater departments are VERY well known, and get lots of money from tuition to alumni (which allows them to get names like James Brown, George Carlin, Stomp, and other famous people to perform).

Our business school is one of the top 10, so you can imagine a lot of rich people are donating to make a name for themselves.

But fields like Bio, Chem, Engl, etc, where graduates don't go on to lucritive careers don't/can't donate as much, and so they sturggle more.

I mean, you can see a HUGE difference in the business and music areas of my school, versus other departments.

Although, the school does improve things form tuition as well. So it's not ALL donations, just some get more than others.

Nikolai

ccpickre wrote:

It's not so much Peggy Sue vs D Trump.
For example, my school, IU.
...
Although, the school does improve things form tuition as well. So it's not ALL donations, just some get more than others.

Thank you!

bham

ccpickre wrote:

But fields like Bio, Chem, Engl, etc, where graduates don't go on to lucritive careers don't/can't donate as much, and so they sturggle more.

This is off topic:

Yeah MD's, Dentist's, Optometrists and almost anything health related weren't Biology majors as undergrads.

Sounds like IU puts more money where it has achieved success, but trust me those other graduates can and do go onto lucritive careers. The University here has huge graduate programs in everything medical related and Biology, Chemistry, and Engineering (BioMedical) feed into them from the undergrad side. 1/3 of the 15,000 students is grad students with like 80% in something that would require a Bio or Chem degree.

cmason

Nk: Not to detract from being fairly compensated for your work, but why not toss in an arrangement to qualify for eductational discounts on software?

evoryware

Dealing with "non-profit" and "education" and "government" for years, they are just a warning words to let you know you may be haggled to death and still end up with no sale.

I usually come in normal price.
I would tell them, "well this is my normal fee" (top dollar) and see what they say.
"That's fine." :ivar (good luck with them accepting first offer)

or "Can you go any lower?" or "I can get someone else to do it cheaper." or "Come on, we're non-profit!"

Then I'll say "well let me get back to you. Since you are non-profit/educational, I'll see what I can do on the price."
Have a rock bottom price in mind at the start.


Sounds like you are handling this via email. I would call. I mean do they want all of the pictures? Or are they going to pick and choose 5 out of the few hundred. By when do they need them?

I always try to find out what their budget is like, when it starts and when it ends. Grants, donations, state funding, etc. Try and find out what their budget is for this publication and what they expect to spend on the pictures. Someone there knows.

If this organization could benefit from your photos, I'm sure there are other departments in the school that could benefit also and with bigger budgets. And this is why you shouldn't just give it away.

Offer to call them back with an educational price.
As you drop down the price (if you have to), tie it in to future services and referrals to other departments such as athletics, fraternities, ROTC, senior and staff portraits, reunions, homecomings, campus id's, etc..., and of course, educational pricing on software as said above.

Nikolai

Update
We have exchanged a few more emails.
They requested several particular images.
I quoted them a regular price ($99/image), one time non-trasferable non-exclusive deal publishing rights, etc., lots of legalize from Da Book + plain English explanation. Then I offered a 50% discount ($49.99/ea).

Preprocessed JPEGs or straight from RAW TIFFs.

I also offered the 25% discount on print orders.

I have specified the expiration date as of May 15th. (i.e. two weeks)

This was all yesterday afternoon, so I think they need some time to think it over, since we're talking about several hundered dollars.

Stay tuned for the next update.

Nikolai

evoryware wrote:

Dealing with "non-profit" and "education" and "government" for years, they are just a warning words to let you know you may be haggled to death and still end up with no sale.

Great insight, thank you very much!

Nikolai

cmason wrote:

Nk: Not to detract from being fairly compensated for your work, but why not toss in an arrangement to qualify for eductational discounts on software?

That's good thinking!

thegridrunner

So what happened, did they accept your price???

Nikolai

Patrick,

thegridrunner wrote:

So what happened, did they accept your price???

Thanks for checking :-)

No, I haven't got paid - yet. The head of the department has been replaced, so they are not sure about budget, routines, etc. New guy, you know. But they kept asking if I can do some extra work for them and they are still intersted in those shots. We parked it for Summer recess, and hopefully will get back in touch once the schools start and they figure out their game and pieces...
I will update this thread if/when this gets developed to something less moot :-)