Margulis book reccomendations

rutt

People often ask me which Dan Margulis book to buy, Photoshop LAB Color... or Professional Photoshop, 5th Edtion.

If you are only going to learn one of these books, buy Photoshop LAB Coler. It will give you a powerful toolbox and enough familiarity to grow into the rest of Dan's ideas.

PP5E is a more advanced book and required reading if you are going to prepare work for commercial printing or want to go beyond the techniques of the LAB book

I've watched the progress of many people on dgrin who started not knowing that much, read the LAB book, and became proficient. It's impressive how many have.

My 2 cents. :rutt

mdavis

I would suggest the other way. The LAB book is truly unique, but it is totally written around when to use, and when not to use LAB. PE5 covers the basics in the early chapters, then gets quite "hairy" in the 2nd half of the book, but if you haven't read Margulis' PE5, you'll have problems understanding a lot of LAB without learning his basic philosophy.

rutt

mdavis wrote:

I would suggest the other way. The LAB book is truly unique, but it is totally written around when to use, and when not to use LAB. PE5 covers the basics in the early chapters, then gets quite "hairy" in the 2nd half of the book, but if you haven't read Margulis' PE5, you'll have problems understanding a lot of LAB without learning his basic philosophy.

Would you?

That certainly is the conventional wisdom, but empirical evidence on dgrin (and in Dan's own experience) strongly suggests otherwise. Look at the two book reading groups I led (and am still leading):

• Margulis' "Professional Photoshop, 5th Edition"
• Margulis' LAB Color Book

Reaction to the LAB book has been great and as I said in my initial post it took a large group from basically the Kelby level to the Margulis level in the course of six months. For a long time it was the #1 google result for "Dan Margulis". Use dgrin search and compare both the number of views and posts for the chapters and master threads of the two books. And this reaction wasn't limited to dgrin. The LAB book was the #1 Amazon bestseller in the entire computer book category for months. PP5E, not so much.

This is a surprising fact. Dan has told Andy and me that he was very surprised by it. But fact it is. The interesting question is why? I have a theory. The LAB book presents a simple technique right away which is easy to master and which dramatically improves many many shots. Then it presents variations which increase the applicability of that technique to the point where it's the rare shot it doesn't improve. In this context the reader learns enough of the underlying theory to go beyond the recipe following stage (Kelby) to deep understanding. By then end of the book, the reader has mastered a very powerful tool kit and learned to use it broadly. So what if it's not all ten channels? So what if there are some things you could do better with the techniques and theory in PP5E? You can still do a lot. And the on ramp is very gentle.

By contrast, PP5E is a steep slope from the very start. What's the average score on the channels quiz in the first chapter? People are still struggling with the idea of not using the master curve to enhance contrast from the second chapter. And I know that Dan doesn't actually follow the order of these chapters when he corrects. These days, false profiles and RGB blending are his first steps. I think he sort of regrets not starting with RGB blending for contrast.

Look, both books are valuable and there are some people who are going to prefer to start with PP5E. Mastering both books is the ideal. But the empirical evidence is strong that if you are getting started with Dan's stuff, you have a better chance of getting going with the LAB book. Much better.

Duffy Pratt

I looked at the LAB book in a book store, decided that was better than anything else I had seen, and never looked back. The results from the LAB book are immediate and satisfying. The two part approach to the later chapters makes even them much more accessible to a newcomer.

After I had read the LAB book twice, I got PP4E and worked through it. And now have done the same with PP5. I don't think I would have gotten as far if I had started with the PP series first.

Duffy

Richard

As a relative newbie to photography and post processing, I find LAB colorspace easier to understand than RGB or CYMK. Two color dimensions and one luminosity one make more sense than three or four dimensions that mix color and luminosity. But someone who has been doing color photography and printing for years might find LAB unnatural, as they already can think in RGB and CYMK. I got immediate improvement in my workflow from the LAB book. And while I have also picked up some very good methods from Dan's latest book, I think it is going to take me much longer to assimilate.

FWIW.

rutt

The LAB colorspace was designed to have some useful properties. I don't know what the word is, but curve moves are supposed to be equally perceivable anywhere along the curve. For example raising the highlight end point by 2 should be just as evident and dropping the shadow end point by 2. The same is true for the A and B channels. The standard was experimentally defined to be well behaved this way. Compare with the RGB or CMYK master curves where equal moves in the highlights are much more noticeable than their shadow equivalents. Or consider the different effects on luminosity of the different color channels.

LAB seems odd at first because it's more abstract than RGB or CMYK which just mix light or inks. But just because it's abstract, it's also easier; a more user friendly interface, so to speak.

jjbong

My experience is slightly different, but strongly supports rutt's recommendation. I started with PP4E (don't remember how exactly I found it). I sort of understood it, and learned a bit that I could apply. But I had a real mental block with CMYK, so I missed a lot (which ironically I could have mostly used in RGB).

The LAB book was amazing - instantly usable with dramatic results. The color space actually wasn't difficult to understand, and I could follow and sometimes use some of the more advanced techniques. It was a real hoot changing colors of items in photos, for example.

Later, I was able to go back through PP4E and get a lot more out of it, and I'm doing the same now with PP5E.

DavidTO

I struggled for a long time with understanding curves. Not the lines and curves, but really how RGB worked. How to manipulate it. For me, when I read the LAB book, a light went on, and suddenly I understood.

I don't think I'll ever make it through PP5E. Ever. That book frustrates me to no end. Far too much work for the return on investment. If you're a darkroom rat, like rutt, well, then, enjoy. But for me....NO. That book actually pisssed me off. I'm done with it.

jjbong

jfriend wrote:

I actually believe there's some good stuff in the PP5E book, but it's way harder to get at those jewels and I find myself dreading the work required to try to get something out of it. And, some of what he preaches in PP5E, I just don't agree with. Separating color from contrast (learned in the LAB book) just makes intuitive sense to me, is easy to use and works way, way better for me than separate R, G and B or separate C, M, Y and K curves. I just can't make the separate curves work for me without constantly fighting color changes that I don't want. I think this is a really, really advanced concept that requires you to implicitly know how to move all three curves so that you get what you are looking for without undesirable color changes and that's way beyond me.

Dan actually addresses this issue in Chapter 9 of PP5E. He recommends a somewhat complicated work with separate steps for contrast and for color. This turns out not to be hard. You do your curving for contrast then change the mode of the curve layer to luminosity. No color effects. Then you use other techniques to get the color right (in color mode).

I sympathize with your frustration here, but I also understand Dan's difficulties in getting a complex subject across.

The LAB techniques in his book are easy to comprehend and to use, but they have somehwat limited use. Dan remarked that people exposed to these techniques tend to over-utilitze them. I agree, having been one of them.

If you want to improve your curving, I'd recommend doing it in CMYK. It's
more precise, and so it doesn't present the color changing problems quite
as much as RGB. Lots of caveats, of course, depending on the image.

jfriend wrote:

Note to Rutt: One idea to kick start things in the reading group, would be for someone to put together a summary of the top 5 things that can be quickly learned and applied from the PP5E book and perhaps that would get some people reinvigorated and get the conversation going again. That's what was so great about the LAB book - you got a high return early on with things that are simple to learn and easily usable by many. I haven't found those things in PP5E yet.

Excellent suggestion, but the application may be a little tricky. One of the values of the LAB books was a recipe that works in a lot of cases (even though you can get better results in some cases using other methods). PP5E doesn't offer that. Instead, it offers a set of principles (first half of the book) and a set of techniques that apply to some images but not others (last half of the book).

I don't know how this would work online, but you might try to replicate what Dan does in his basic class, perhaps using the images distributed with the book. Just thinking out lowd here, but it might work in a reading group context.

jfriend

gmachen wrote:

If you're already doing it, then what's the problem?

The whole point of my original posting here is that the PP5E book has not yet contributed anything new to my regularly practiced post processing skills while the LAB book has contributed many things.

rutt

I'm going to use my lower than the angles moderator powers and move/copy the part of this thread about kickstarting the PP5E reading group to the the reading group's master thread, where I think it belongs.

Let's please continue that discussion there and keep this thread to the topic of comparing the two books and their applicability to beginners.

JimW

I’ve just discovered this section and am excited to jump in, as I believe in the power of postprocessing. I was about to buy one of Margulis’ books, when I saw this thread (when the student is ready, the teacher appears!). Right now I’m looking for a little direction, if you would be so kind. I am primarily interested in portraits, mostly in the studio. For many years I have been doing color correction in the printing industry, mostly press okays for fashion catalogues on web presses, including production troubleshooting for quality issues.

Now I’m switching careers, and it’s time for me to really learn pp. I am comfortable in cmyk, but have yet to convert that understanding to rgb. The title of one book, Canyon Color, implies a bent towards landscape photography, it seems. Or is that not correct?

I’d like to order one of the books this week, and get started immediately. So, for someone who gets cmyk and does studio portraits, would your recommendation change any?

Thanks very much,

Jim

rutt

JimW wrote:

Now I’m switching careers, and it’s time for me to really learn pp. I am comfortable in cmyk, but have yet to convert that understanding to rgb. The title of one book, Canyon Color, implies a bent towards landscape photography, it seems. Or is that not correct?

I'd say not. The final chapter of the LAB book is "A Technique for Portraits" which I use all the time, even on ballet images.

I'm sicking to my guns, start with the LAB book and graduate to PP5E. The LAB book will also give you a quick workflow quickly.

On and in case you haven't found them, we have a lot of notes on both book here and here so you can get a good idea of what to expect.

jfriend

LAB book is definitely easier to get things from

DavidTO wrote:

I struggled for a long time with understanding curves. Not the lines and curves, but really how RGB worked. How to manipulate it. For me, when I read the LAB book, a light went on, and suddenly I understood.

I don't think I'll ever make it through PP5E. Ever. That book frustrates me to no end. Far too much work for the return on investment. If you're a darkroom rat, like rutt, well, then, enjoy. But for me....NO. That book actually pisssed me off. I'm done with it.

Editing and adding this post back to this thread since some of it is directly germaine to this thread.

I tend to agree with most of what you say David. The LAB book is just soooo much easier to get good, core usable stuff from. From that book, I learned the basics of LAB color adjustments, separating color from contrast, 10 channels to an image, making masks from channels, using blend-if settings to isolate a change to certain color ranges without masking, etc...

I actually believe there's some good stuff in the PP5E book, but it's way harder to get at those jewels and I find myself dreading the work required to try to get something out of it. And, some of what he preaches in PP5E, I just don't agree with. Separating color from contrast (learned in the LAB book) just makes intuitive sense to me, is easy to use and works way, way better for me than separate R, G and B or separate C, M, Y and K curves. I just can't make the separate curves work for me without constantly fighting color changes that I don't want. I think this is a really, really advanced concept that requires you to implicitly know how to move all three curves so that you get what you are looking for without undesirable color changes and that's way beyond me.

Unlike you David, I haven't given up on the book yet (though I've taken a hiatus for the last few months). It sounds like there's some interesting stuff to learn about false gammas and I'm starting to see some useful things to do with the black channel.

JimW

I'd say not. The final chapter of the LAB book is "A Technique for Portraits" which I use all the time, even on ballet images.

Great. Thanks rutt. This is very helpful. I hadn't found those notes yet, so I appreciate the links. I'll start with the LAB book.

Jim