Selling pictures from Concert

peace_4

Hello,

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this question...

Anyway, I went under "MusicPhotography" and saw that some Pro took pictures at concert and selling prints through smugmug. My question for Pro photographers out there: is it even legal to sell pitures of concert? For example, let's say you take some pictures of Elton John at his concert and then sells his pictures on smugmug. I would think that Elton John would not be happy that his pictures are being sold by some photographers on smugmug.

Any comments? Advice? I took some pictures at concerts as well but not sure if it's legal to sell them. That's why I'm posting this questions.

Thanks..

Mike Silversides

Dan Heller has a pretty comprehensive overview of using photos under the topic of whether or not you need a model release. http://www.danheller.com/model-release.html

A concert probably falls in the category of taking photos in a private place, your concert ticket probably has fine print that says cameras are prohibited, so any use of the photos is probably illegal.

Any use of an identifable person for commercial gain (except for editorial/news use) is probably not allowed without a model release.

No simple answers as it can depend on how the photos were taken and how they intend to be used. eg. even editorial photos can get you sued if taken inappropriately or the use constitutes libel or is not really newsworthy.

Itsme

No. It is NOT legal even though many do it. I've worked in that area for many years and watched alot of people get nailed--BIG TIME for tens of thousands of dollars for commercial use of a rock bands image without consent. A friend of mine is with an international lawfirm in LA and they actively pursue any and all commercial activity such as merchandising print sales,tee shirts,etc--unless your name is so well known galleries will hang this stuff and charge fine art prices in the high hundreds or thousands your considered fair game to go after..

Really,some attorneys will even go after this stuff just to make an example.

When many people shoot concerts professionally a form sometimes get put under photograpehrs noses that specifically states NO MERCHANDISING.

When the general public attends a concert the ticket always says no cameras,recording or videotaping.

Lawyers get this stuff pulled from ebay alot as well.

And lastly...Musicians bust their asses to get ahead and get to the point of touring. I've known many and even been related to one that died broke because everyone is always taking away what should have been their rights with their music and their image.
Why should a band spend years getting to that point and spending a boatload of money for a lightshow ,staff,etc for someone with a camera to come in and make the profit by selling photos of THEIR concert ?

A concert is a private event and by you buying the ticket agree to their terms.


ItsMe

Sorry for the rant but this has always been a bone of contention with me!

Angelo

peace_4 wrote:

My question for Pro photographers out there: is it even legal to sell pitures of concert?

short answer: NO!

Welcome to dGrin. We have a fantastic forum of useful information here. Help yourself to the search feature. You'll find many threads dealing with the legalities of photography.

pattyman

Related issue photographing show
Hello,
I have an issue that maybe you can help me with. I was "invited" to shoot the opening of a stage show by its producers. It was freelance and unpaid, but the invitation emailed to me was and invitation for press to cover the show. The show's producers knew I was not an employee of any media outlet and I assumed they wanted us (myself and another invited photographer) to try and sell our photos to interested media who could not or would not send a photographer. There were no stated restrictions as to use of the photographs on the invitation.

Strangely enough, I got a very cordial and complimentary email from the producers of the show after I informed them the shots were posted to my smugmug site and 5 days later (without contacting me) the producers emailed Andy, the head of Smugmug, demanding the removal of the shots and demanding copies of all of them saying photos of Equity actors were being sold illegally.

I removed them from my site upon their request (none sold) and informed the producer of that. I guess it's related to this forum in the sense that it was photographs of a show, but as an invited photographer (even a freelance press photographer) does that bar a photographer from selling those photos? If I am unable to sell them on my site, can I post them not for sale? Also, if I am unable to sell my photos, does that then bring up issues of ownership? I was not contracted as an employee by anyone.

I would appreciate any input you would have.

Thanks,
Pat
http://ahearnephoto.smugmug.com

Itsme wrote:

No. It is NOT legal even though many do it. I've worked in that area for many years and watched alot of people get nailed--BIG TIME for tens of thousands of dollars for commercial use of a rock bands image without consent. A friend of mine is with an international lawfirm in LA and they actively pursue any and all commercial activity such as merchandising print sales,tee shirts,etc--unless your name is so well known galleries will hang this stuff and charge fine art prices in the high hundreds or thousands your considered fair game to go after..

Really,some attorneys will even go after this stuff just to make an example.

When many people shoot concerts professionally a form sometimes get put under photograpehrs noses that specifically states NO MERCHANDISING.

When the general public attends a concert the ticket always says no cameras,recording or videotaping.

Lawyers get this stuff pulled from ebay alot as well.

And lastly...Musicians bust their asses to get ahead and get to the point of touring. I've known many and even been related to one that died broke because everyone is always taking away what should have been their rights with their music and their image.
Why should a band spend years getting to that point and spending a boatload of money for a lightshow ,staff,etc for someone with a camera to come in and make the profit by selling photos of THEIR concert ?

A concert is a private event and by you buying the ticket agree to their terms.


ItsMe

Sorry for the rant but this has always been a bone of contention with me!

Itsme

Merchanding photos is NOT the same as licensing an image to a publication for a story or a review about a performance.

Merchandising or using any image or likeness of anyone without a model release and a license is illegal. There is also the rights to publicity which by having a photo does not give YOU the photographer any right to sell but gives all rights to the person in the image since YOU do not have any signed release.
And by the way---NEVER do verbal agreements..

Smugmug is probably bound to some extent to comply with requests from unions,lawyers,etc for trademarked items,copyrighted items or items which you have no business selling.

There is a BIG difference between licensing(which is NOT selling) and making an image available as a commodity which you can not do and really expect to get away with it for very long..Eventually you will be found out by the powers that be.

When you are invited to cover something you are not given ANY right to sell the images. They assumed you were press and the photos would be used to THEIR benefit to give them publicity-not to the photographers benefit by making money off of them.

ItsMe

claudermilk

I would say that since it's their production, and since you have no written contract or model releases, they can make the request they did. However, you own the copyrights to the photos, so by the same token they must obtain permission from you to use the photos. At this point, it seems the photos will just live on your hard drive for your own personal use, nothing more.

Firelarz

I thought, if you are allowed to bring a camera in and take images of famous people then you are allowed to sell the pictures, but no merchandise. I shoot country singers and this is what I have done and been told by other shooters covering these events. They said the artist is a public figure. Maybe they are wrong, but I do not know.

jdryan3

Firelarz wrote:

I thought, if you are allowed to bring a camera in and take images of famous people then you are allowed to sell the pictures, but no merchandise. I shoot country singers and this is what I have done and been told by other shooters covering these events. They said the artist is a public figure. Maybe they are wrong, but I do not know.

I'm not an attorney and I don't play one on TV, but I think you are wrong on several accounts. There are a number of other links in this thread and others, both in this forum and in many others. I would start by reading them.

First, most venues don't allow cameras. Just because they don't confiscate it at the door doesn't mean it is permitted. Second, most venues are private places, not public spaces. One of our local concert facilities is owned and operated by our county. Guess what? Not a public space for these purposes.

Third, prints you sell (ie non-editorial usage) ARE merchandise. Not just t-shirts and coffee mugs. Fourth, just like entertainers incorporate themselves, in some ways they enjoy MORE protection when it comes to you profiting from their image.

Fifth, there are exceptions to everything. Editorial usage, selling a pic of a celebrity in a public space to a tabloid, fine art usage of an image, etc. The best way to avoid this is to explicitly ask. Then get a signed release. Even if the venue allows it, the artist may not.

Good Luck!

Deb-KC

How do you go about selling legally?
I've been scouring the web for hints and accurate info on this, and it sounds like you know your stuff.

I have a substantial collection of good and some great concert slides from roughly 1972 up to the early 80s. I sold a handful of shots back then, basically for cost and a print for myself.

I worked as a go-fer for various promoters and had great access. Cameras were a non-issue back then, and all of the points you made don't seem to apply (ticket stub, express statements that prohibited merchandising, etc.)

Is it even conceivable for me to get permission to reproduce any of these images for sale? Would I have to contact each and every band/artist and even then would they turn me down without consideration?

I finally have an avenue to print and sell some of this work and am disappointed that doing this would put me outside the law.

I recognize all of your points about artists and their being exploited, but just because there is a band up there with nice lights, there is still an art to capturing an image, and I don't think it fair that I can't try to generate a small income from this labor of love and piece of history.

I'd be thrilled if you could give me some information or pointers on a way to get permission/arrange to pay percentage/whatever — a way to be legal.

Thanks!