Camera Raw 4.1 - big changes

colourbox

I haven't even downloaded it yet but for this version it looks like a good idea to do a little studying first. Here is a great article about the many changes in Camera Raw 4.1. Two most interesting: Greatly expanded sharpening options (edge mask!), and an implementation of HIRALOAM contrast sharpening called the "Clarity" slider.

Tanuki

colourbox wrote:

I haven't even downloaded it yet but for this version it looks like a good idea to do a little studying first. Here is a great article about the many changes in Camera Raw 4.1. Two most interesting: Greatly expanded sharpening options (edge mask!), and an implementation of HIRALOAM contrast sharpening called the "Clarity" slider.

Thanks for posting that link! I notice at the end he says "All of the new controls and functionality will also show up in a soon to be released Lightroom 1.1 update that will be free to registered users. " And I thought 1.1 was only going to be a bug fix. Sweeeeeet...

Mike

arodney

Tanuki wrote:

Thanks for posting that link! I notice at the end he says "All of the new controls and functionality will also show up in a soon to be released Lightroom 1.1 update that will be free to registered users. " And I thought 1.1 was only going to be a bug fix. Sweeeeeet...

Mike

Not at all! Its far from a simple dot release (more I can't say).

However, ACR and LR share nearly identical processing parity (there are a few areas where it doesn't, very minor and needs to be addressed). But you can read between the lines here once you look at ACR 4.1. And that's JUST the processing, there's a bit more going on inside Lightroom that you'll be real happy to see.

Tanuki

arodney wrote:

Not at all! Its far from a simple dot release (more I can't say).

However, ACR and LR share nearly identical processing parity (there are a few areas where it doesn't, very minor and needs to be addressed). But you can read between the lines here once you look at ACR 4.1. And that's JUST the processing, there's a bit more going on inside Lightroom that you'll be real happy to see.

You're such a tease! No, seriously, thanks for sharing. With Jeff's article, it was just a rumor. But with your post, we now have a confirmed rumor! Can't wait to play with those shiny new sliders...

arodney

Tanuki wrote:

You're such a tease! No, seriously, thanks for sharing. With Jeff's article, it was just a rumor. But with your post, we now have a confirmed rumor! Can't wait to play with those shiny new sliders...

Adobe has made no secrete that the two will share processing parity.

CatOne

arodney wrote:

Not at all! Its far from a simple dot release (more I can't say).

However, ACR and LR share nearly identical processing parity (there are a few areas where it doesn't, very minor and needs to be addressed). But you can read between the lines here once you look at ACR 4.1. And that's JUST the processing, there's a bit more going on inside Lightroom that you'll be real happy to see.

Can't say things like the appropriation of functionality much like Photokit Sharpener?

:-)

BenA2

Very nice update

colourbox wrote:

I haven't even downloaded it yet but for this version it looks like a good idea to do a little studying first. Here is a great article about the many changes in Camera Raw 4.1. Two most interesting: Greatly expanded sharpening options (edge mask!), and an implementation of HIRALOAM contrast sharpening called the "Clarity" slider.

I just started playing with ACR 4.1.

The new sharpening is sooo sweet. It was more than I ever expected we'd see in ACR or Lightroom (at least without 3rd party input) The masking feature alone makes this an incredibly powerful tool. Great job Adobe!

The noise reduction improvements are solid, but nothing to get too excited about. Color noise reduction is more effective and does a fully adequate job now. Luminance noise reduction, on the other hand, is still lacking the effectiveness I think a lot of people are hoping for. I'm pretty satisfied though, I really only care about getting rid of the color noise in RAW conversion.

I'm glad to see the clarity feature added. Unfortunately, I didn't have any sample images with me at the time that really benefited it.

I didn't have any files to check the new de-fringing features on either. But, if it works as advertized, this is an awesome, welcome feature and an unexpected surprise.

I can't wait to get these features in Lightroom.

Mike Lane

tres sexy! Thanks for the info

Rhuarc

This sounds really nice! Any ideas when the Lightroom update will be coming out? Off the record, of course!

colourbox

Rhuarc wrote:

This sounds really nice! Any ideas when the Lightroom update will be coming out? Off the record, of course!

I was just reading about that...

If you want news like this as it happens, bookmark your RSS browser with:

feed://photoshopnews.com/feed/
feed://blogs.adobe.com/index.xml
feed://lightroom-news.com/feed/
feed://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/rss.asp

pat.kane

Thanks for the update. I've not been happy with my Lightroom output as of late and have been giving DPP another try. I'll be keeping an eye out for the Lightroom update.

Nikolai

Somehow I missed the news... On to it now:-) Thanks for sharing!

Nikolai

I *LOVE* new ACR
Man, it's the best ever! Sharpening/noise reduction are plain awesome!

One ugly side-effect of the update.
After launching the new Bridge (2.1, also several new features) for the first time, I noticed that my shots started displaying huge banding/dithering in Bridge preview/slideshow. After new ACR 4.1 "touched" them, effect disappeared.

BeaKeR

New tools available in PS?
These new tools are pretty sweet, but I keep wishing I could use them in PS proper instead of just in RAW. After all, sharpening is a nice thing to be able to change your mind about.

Does anyone know if this is available in PS, or will be in the future?

Nikolai

BeaKeR wrote:

These new tools are pretty sweet, but I keep wishing I could use them in PS proper instead of just in RAW. After all, sharpening is a nice thing to be able to change your mind about.

Does anyone know if this is available in PS, or will be in the future?

All those things were and still are available in PS, it's just new ACR now does it (and indestructively at that) directly to RAWs, JPEGs and TIFFs. ..

BeaKeR

Nikolai wrote:

All those things were and still are available in PS, it's just new ACR now does it (and indestructively at that) directly to RAWs, JPEGs and TIFFs. ..

Really? I couldn't find anything akin to Vibrance in PS, except Saturation which is not the same thing.

Also, the Mask and Detail sliders on the sharpening tab aren't exactly available in PS that I know of. You can create your own edge mask, but it's way easier to have PS do it for you.

Have I just missed these operations in PS? If so could you please point me to them?

Nikolai

BeaKeR wrote:

Really? I couldn't find anything akin to Vibrance in PS, except Saturation which is not the same thing.

Also, the Mask and Detail sliders on the sharpening tab aren't exactly available in PS that I know of. You can create your own edge mask, but it's way easier to have PS do it for you.

Have I just missed these operations in PS? If so could you please point me to them?

Well, yeah.. Sure, I agree...

arodney

Nikolai wrote:

Well, yeah.. Sure, I agree...

Right. There is nothing in Photoshop that replicates Vibrance. That's a non linear saturation routine that saturates less saturated colors more than more saturated colors with skin tone protection.

Mike Lane

arodney wrote:

Right. There is nothing in Photoshop that replicates Vibrance. That's a non linear saturation routine that saturates less saturated colors more than more saturated colors with skin tone protection.

You can use ACR to adjust things other than raw files now. And when you do, you got the vibrance slider.

arodney

Mike Lane wrote:

You can use ACR to adjust things other than raw files now. And when you do, you got the vibrance slider.

ACR isn't Photoshop! Photoshop doesn't have anything like Vibrance.

The ACR and Lightroom processing pipeline are the same btw.

Mike Lane

arodney wrote:

ACR isn't Photoshop! Photoshop doesn't have anything like Vibrance.

The ACR and Lightroom processing pipeline are the same btw.

What version of photoshop doesn't come with ACR?

Sounds like photoshop to me.

BeaKeR

Mike Lane wrote:

What version of photoshop doesn't come with ACR?

Sounds like photoshop to me.

Well, ACR is part of Photoshop, but it's not exactly "in" Photoshop. For instance, I couldn't go and create a Vibrance adjustment layer, could I? Or sharpen a layer using the Mask and Detail sliders?

Sure you could use ACR before & after using whatever PS stuff you want to, but that doesn't give you the full power and flexibility you would get from those things being in Photoshop itself, instead of ACR.

Hope that made some sense...

arodney

Mike Lane wrote:

What version of photoshop doesn't come with ACR?

Sounds like photoshop to me.

First off, CS, CS2 will not allow you to use Tiff's or JPEG's within ACR (and they don't have Vibrance).

2nd, ACR isn't Photoshop. Its a plug-in. My original point was, there's nothing IN Photoshop that can handle Vibrance and that's still the case.

Then there's the issues surrounding bringing rendered gamma corrected images into either ACR or LR for editing. There's a lot going on with respect to the conversions into and out of the color spaces that are necessary to even use ACR. This isn't at all the same as opening the existing image in Photoshop. You should be quite careful about what's going on from here, with just the conversions from color space to color space. You could, if you don't pay attention, bring a JPEG in 8-bit sRGB into ACR and end up with ProPhoto RGB. There's no honoring of original color space, you have to keep track of this yourself.

Frankly, using ACR for editing existing rendered images (not raws) has a few potential hurt me buttons. This is not in any way the same processing engine or process as simply opening that JPEG in Photoshop to edit the pixels.

arodney

BeaKeR wrote:

For instance, I couldn't go and create a Vibrance adjustment layer, could I? Or sharpen a layer using the Mask and Detail sliders?

Correct. Its a plug-in and like every other plug-in you own, its using its own methods to do what you ask. Its a mini application that lives on top of Photoshop. It can play by its own unique rules.

Mike Lane

meh, whatever. I've been doing a vibrance on all my photos recently. I don't really see the problem.

photobug

PhotoKit Sharpener's 3 steps in ACR/LightRoom?

CatOne wrote:

Can't say things like the appropriation of functionality much like Photokit Sharpener?

The writeup says that ACR 4.1 does "capture sharpening", which is the first step of Bruce Fraser's (PhotoKit's) 3-step sharpening workflow.

The writeup also hinted that Adobe is working on incorporating more of that workflow -- I would guess for the second step, "content sharpening". It wouldn't make as much sense to include the 3rd step (output sharpening) in ACR or LightRoom.

By the way, Bruce Fraser's Real World Image Sharpening is a fabulous book on the topic -- I just finished it and have post-it markers all over it, to go back for later reference. I highly recommend that book.

Given the new and upcoming support for 3-step sharpening workflow, I may just rely on CS3/ACR 4.1/LightRoom and not have to purchase PhotoKit Sharpener after all...

arodney

photobug wrote:

The writeup also hinted that Adobe is working on incorporating more of that workflow -- I would guess for the second step, "content sharpening". It wouldn't make as much sense to include the 3rd step (output sharpening) in ACR or LightRoom.

The 2nd step is creative sharpening and no, that would have to be done in Photoshop since its applied with a brush.

Output sharpening in ACR, nope. But in LR, well lets say a very good place to do this since it does have a print module.

colourbox

photobug wrote:

The writeup also hinted that Adobe is working on incorporating more of that workflow -- I would guess for the second step, "content sharpening". It wouldn't make as much sense to include the 3rd step (output sharpening) in ACR or LightRoom.

That's true with ACR, but Lightroom has a print module that already has a "Print Sharpening" popup, so it currently has capture and output sharpening covered for print, at least.

photobug

arodney wrote:

The 2nd step is creative sharpening and no, that would have to be done in Photoshop since its applied with a brush.

The three steps as I recall them are:

1. Source (or Capture) sharpening -- a global mild sharpening, settings dependent only on the source device, e.g. specific camera sensor. Can do it once and forget it.
   .
2. Content sharpening -- depends on the photo content, e.g. low/med/high-frequency content. It's always done with an edge mask. It can be combined with Source sharpening if you make 3 actions, one for each low-, med-, and high-frequency. Can do it once and forget it.
   >>> Creative sharpening sneaks in at this point; it's optional, highly image-dependent, and always applied "by hand". I think Fraser did include it as an optional part of step #2 since it's clearly neither source nor output sharpening.
   .
3. Output sharpening -- applied based on output device, medium(paper), image size, and viewing distance. This step must be changed every time the output destination is changed.

Output sharpening in ACR, nope. But in LR, well lets say a very good place to do this since it does have a print module.

Touche'. I'm just starting to use LightRoom and have never printed with it, so forgot about that ;-).

arodney

colourbox wrote:

That's true with ACR, but Lightroom has a print module that already has a "Print Sharpening" popup, so it currently has capture and output sharpening covered for print, at least.

It has a print sharpening option but its nothing like PK Sharpener which is based on the output device used, file size etc.

As for the three modes of PK Sharpening, you can read this:

http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357.html

Bruce's first piece that was the basis for PK Sharpener.

Thiago Sigrist

Hey folks!

Yeah, I pretty much agree that ACR 4.1 is awesome! And, by extension, so will be LR 1.1.

I dunno what you think, but the clarity and sharpening sliders reduced the time I spent outside ACR significantly.

However, there's still room for improvement... IMHO they should merge ACR sharpening with the Smart Sharpening filter. That because I find it still possible to get better results with the SS filter, but on the other hand, the masking and detail sliders of ACR are incredibly useful. So, either on ACR or the main PS, you'd get the best of both worlds!

Also, I wish there were separate controls for applying sharpening on the masked-out areas. This way I could apply different sharpening values in edges and surfaces/textures. More sharpening in the edges, and some weak sharpening to enhance skin or surface texture a bit. (Dunno if I explained it well... does it make sense?) Also there should be softening controls, since I might want to sharpen edges but soften the textures/surfaces a bit. These should also go into the SS filter.

Print sharpening, on the PS print dialog, would be nice too. I looked for it, but it wasn't there...

Clarity and vibration adjustments would be neat to have in PS, as already mentioned.

Finally, as good as the noise reduction has become (especially for color noise), it would be really neat to have NR in the level of Noise Ninja or Noiseware, integrated into ACR and PS...

I guess one can always wish...

Cheers!

-- thiago