Time To Move Up
Cloudkicker
Registered Users Posts: 21 Big grins
Hi all, Im new to the forums and need some help picking out my first DSLR. I read many reviews but still cant seem to narrow it down to one, right now im down to two cameras which are the Nikon D70 and the Canon Digital Rebel. Some pros/cons would really help, like what kind of problems you guys have run into with these cameras. Also if you guys can explain the different features it has, that would be wonderful. I know there has probably been many discussions about it but i just want to make my first decision the right decision. Thanks in advance.
Canon 30D, Canon 24-70 f/2.8 L USM, Canon 580EX
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hmmm...i just realized the Nikon uses a Sony sensor, while Canon makes their own. Learn something new everyday.
welcome to dgrin.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
I first got the Canon 300D and had it for a week. I didn't really like the layout of the camera (to each his own, you may like it) and traded it in when the D70 first came out.
Personally I love the controls of the camera. Very easy to use (for me). You can either get just the body or you can get it with the kit lens, which is a good lens to start out with.
A lot (I think) has to do with personal preference. Some say Canon has better pictures, some say Nikon. Then the whole feel of the camera....you may like one over the other.
Go to a camera store and hold them in your hands. Look through the viewfinder..see which one feels better to you. Then check out some samples of what each camera can do....best thing to do is to take a CF card in and take some yourself, since most online have been photoshopped or have some sort of custom thing probably.
Here are some examples, only ran it through photoshop for highlights (I think)
Richard
I think the D70 is a better camera than the Rebel. Keep in mind that I shoot with a Nikon D100. That said the camera body is probably will be a minimal expense once you start buying glass. What you have to decide is what kind of photography you will be doing and what kind of lenses you will need and then compare what each camera line has.
Next you want to consider if you will be upgrading your camera body (bet on it). Right now Canon has the edge over Nikon in that area as the D100 is long in the tooth and Nikon has not announced any upgrade for it.
The best thing to do is go down to your local camera store and handle each camera and see which one is a better fit for you. Good luck.
Harry
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
I can't disagree with anything Harry said here. For the money, if it's between a D70 and a drebel, the D70 wins hands down. HOWEVER...you're not just buying a body, you're buying a system. The lenses, should you choose to buy good glass, are going to cost far more than the cost of the body. Right now, I've spent about 5 times as much on lenses than I have on the 20D body. Oh, and then there's the other body (10D) and the other lens (28-135 IS) that fishwife is using...and the three dedicated flashes. Holy moly...the body ain't nothin'. Make sure you like the entire line...especially the lenses. It would be quite foolish to buy into a system and spend a few thousand bucks only to decide that you wanted to switch.
IMHO, this is the primary reason why you have Nikon zealots and Canon zealots, but no Nikon AND Canon zealots. We choose a system, and we support it for life. I know people who are using 20D bodies with lenses they bought in the 1970's.
So...important factors:
(1) Are you comfortable with the body you are about to buy...features, ergos, weight, looks, etc?
(2) Do you like the lenses available in the range?
(3) Do you like the direction the company is going in new product development?
(4) Black or white lenses?
(5) Yellow or red logos?
(6) Do you own any good glass you want to keep using?
That's all there is to it.
Or you could buy a Pentax or Konica/Minolta and pretend it's a major line
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
Hi Harry!
I know we keep hearing from all you long time (d)slr folks on how it's the "system" we dslr wannabees will be buying into and that we shouldn't consider the camera body as much as all the other *stuff*. I'm sure it's very wise advice, but as someone who doesn't know or understand what's really involved, a little further explanation would really help me out here.
Is it really written in stone that we have to spend a fortune on good glass? I'm seriously thinking that all I'll need when I move up to a dslr is 3 lenses. The kit lens, a macro/close-up lens and a good zoom lens.
Am I really kidding myself here? Why would I need any more than that? (and secondly, why would I want to carry around any more than that?!?) I would think those three lenses would pretty much cover all the bases, so I'd really like to hear from you (and other dslr users) about what other lenses would be needed to have a good setup for most every kind of (normal) shooting situation. Or is lens lust simply based on the fact that I'll want something like what I already have, only a much better version of it? I'm a little (no...a LOT!) confused here...
Also, if we're not familiar with what the lenses do (aside from the basics), how do we know how to figure out what we'll really need? The number of choices and even the names given to the lenses can be quite daunting for us newbies who haven't a clue here! D, DX, AE, AF, ED, VR, G, USM, IS, and L lenses...what's it all about?!???
I'm hoping you can help make it a little easier for a slow poke like me to understand. I wanna get a good camera, but I have no idea how to judge the "glass" and/or the pros and cons of any camera system that I'd be considering buying into (right now, like most everyone else here, my camera choice will most likely be either the Nikon D70 or the Canon 20D).
I also don't get what the focal length multiplier (crop factor?) means (1.5 with Nikon, 1.6 with Canon) ...or what is it that makes a lens "fast" lens or "slow"? And why are there F numbers on the lenses (I know what the F numbers mean on the camera, but how do the two numbers correspond? What happens when I use an F22 aperture with an F2.5 lens? I'm a little lost here with the terminology...)
At the risk of sounding pretty dumb with all my newbie questions...I hope you can help me understand what all this means so I can finally make an informed decision,
Thanks!
~Nee
http://www.pbase.com/rdavis
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all the evidence that you tried~
From what i could make out...the D70 is between the Rebel & the 20D. I think maybe a closer comparison could be the D70 & 10D.
Rumour is that a new 8 MP (
As fish said though...it is buying a system that will sort of 'place a contract' on your choices...canon...nikon.
Scary to think that it could a well presented week-ends work by a 25 year old Nikon marketing exec that could lead Nikon to do just what canon did & change lenses.
At least with canon...this is less likely..maybe. Call that as you see it guys but dont tell me it can't happen to Nikon. Personally i see this as a marketing advantage for canon.
All feed back is welcomed!!
http://www.dipphoto.com/
:lust :lust
I'm afraid it is carved in stone that you will spend many times over the cost of the camera body in glass and other goodies. I'll talk about my Nikon experience as thats what I know about.
I started out with the D100 for $1600. Now you need an extra battery that cost $45.00. I added the battery grip (more battery life and makes it easier to take shots in portait mode) that was $219.00. Then I got the Nikon Capture software (SOB's won't include it) another $100.00. Next I got the AC adaptor (not really need but if you need to clean the sensor and you will its necessary to lock the mirror) that was $80.00. Of course you will need CF cards a 1 gig CF card is $100.00. Now that 1 gig card will only hold 102 RAW shots so of course I needed another 1 gig card, another $100.00. Next I needed an external flash so I got the SB-800 for $319.00. That all came to (not including tax) $2563.00. Now I needed some glass.
I started with the 50mm/1.8 (good for low light shooting) for $90.00; the 28-120 VR/3.5 -5.6 for $485.00; and I got the 60mm/2.8 for $340.00. So my tota; expenditure starting out was around $3500.00. Oops forgot the monopod. I couldn't afford a tripod so I got a monopod for $100 make that $3600 starting out
Now the lens magnification factor on the D100 is 1.5 so my 24-120's actual range as 36-180mm (thats just about the same range as the 717). Your better glass will have a wider aperture setting. A wider aperture means you can shoot at a higher shutter speed hence the term "fast glass". The best glass will usually have an aperture of 2.8 or wider. The 2.8 glass is also much heavier.
Right after I got my initial kit I went to Vegas. The Grand Canyon is right by Vegas so i was going there. Now if you are going to shoot the Canyon you want a wide angle lens. I didn't have one so I bought the 18-35/3.5-4.5 for $419 (total now $4019). I really wanted the 17-35/2.8 but that went for $1300.
Now I really needed more reach so I got the Tamron 28-300/3.5-6.3 for $400.00 ($4419). then I needed more reach on my macro shots because the 60mm needed to be close ot the subject and bees and stuff just didn't like that so I got the Sigma 105mm/2.8 macro for $369.00 ($4788.00).
When I was moving to Florida I knew I was going to need more reach for wildlife and the Tamron lens was just too slow and soft at 300mm to be of any use for willdlife shooting so I got the 80-400VR lens for $1400 ($6188). Now I needed a tripod so add another $400 to our total ($6588). Also to accomodate my growing kit I needed a camera bag $95.00 ($6653.00).
After shooting wildlife I realized I needed a faster focusing lens than the 80-400 for birds in flight so I got the 300mm/4.0 lens for $1000 ($7653.00). The 300mm wasn't long enough so I got the 1.4 TC for $330.00 ($7983.00). I also needed a faster lens for general shooting so I got a Sigma 70-200/2.8 on E-Bay for $600.00 ($8593.00).
Now I found out 2 1 gig CF cards was not enough memory so I got a 40gig Wolverine (portable hard drive) for $219.00 ($ 8812.00).
Currently I've decided that I need (actually want) a new camera (the buffer on the D100 is too small for me now) and the focusing while accurate is also slow. So I'm considering the D2H ($1900) or the D2x ($5000) or a possible successor to the D100 (price unknown). Naturally I need more reach for my wildlife shots so I "need" the 500mm/4.0 lens ($5700). Also I will need a better tripod and a better w/a lens would be nice too.
That's my sad story. I hope it answers some of your questions.
Harry
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Add a plate of ribs to that and you've totalled what Andy spent last weekend.
"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."-Hunter S.Thompson
Very good run down for those of us that who want to go dlsr
Which didn't scare me too much
It's too late for me anyway :uhoh
Thanks
Fred
http://www.facebook.com/Riverbendphotos
The glass you buy may last you for many many years where the camera now that everything is digital will probly only go 3 maybe 4 years (AT MOST)
So look at the whole plate not just the camera beacuse your buying a company not just one piece of equipment.
But no matter what anyone else says Canon and Nikon are the top two companys out there. And both make some steller products.
And while both have there advantages and make wonderful systems no one can do everything the best.
It's kinda like asking is chevy or ford better. You'll never get an overwhelming answer to go one way or the other.
Good luck............:D
It's the sudden stops!
http://reecephoto.smugmug.com
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/JeffReece.jepg
src="http//www.danasoft.com/sig/JeffReece.jpg">
When Andy and I used to go to B&H the store had three lines one for film, one for digital and the Williams line. Two of B&H's salespersons were able to retire from their commissions on their sales to Andy.
Harry
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Harry has it right....
But there are a couple of thoughts I will throw out for you so you dont completely lose hope.
1) It depends on what you shoot and when... Sports, wildlife you need the fastest (read expensive) glass you can afford, the fastest camera and the longest lenses. All big bucks. If you cant afford that (Like me) you buy less expensive stuff that is quite frankly, not as good, and you do the best you can with it. I have an expensive style on a beginer budget and with three college bound teenagers I expect it to stay that way.
2) scenery... A nice wide angle lense can be bought for under 600 bucks. A couple of lenses covering the zoom range from 17 to 300 will be more than enough. the speed of the glass is not as important as you are not shooting moving subjects and slower shutterspeeds with a tripod are easy enough.
2) Portraits... The same lense setup at listed in number 2 will probably be enough but a nice fast normal lense can really be nice, Luckily a 50mm fast lense is relatively inexpensive. 200 bucks or less.
So what do you really need,
1 camera body.
1 tripod
1 flash unit
1 extra battery
memory cards, as many as required to supply a days heavy shooting.
1 camera bag
lenses to fit your shooting style.
I have ( I paid)
Nikon D100 Body 1600$
extra battery 35$
Memory cards 2x 512MB, 2x 256MB, 2 x 128MB, 1 x 64MB 200$
1 tamron 75-300mm macro 200$
1 Tamron 18-35mm 100$
1 Sigma 28-80mm macro 35$
1 Sigma 170-500mm 600$
1 set Kenko Extension Tubes 145$
1 Tamron 1.4 Teleconverter 45$
1 Nikon Sb-800 Flash 340$
1 Bogen tripod 275$
1 Tamarac Bag 200$
I have about 3500$ invested in what I carry in the feild.
Do you need all of that stuff. Maybe, maybe not.
Would I like better glass? You bet. My budget doesn't allow it, maybe your doesn't either. But just because you can't afford the 2000$ Image stabilized, super fast lense, doesn't mean you cant come out and play if you know what I mean.
Excelent response. I tried to tally it all up once, but when I started shaking and questioning my finantial sanity, I quit. Now I just lust, save and spend.
I do how ever think you forgot a few minor items. How about the computer, the monitor, ( example: I just bought a 22" one), software, (photoshop), More RAM, upgraded vidio card, pen tablet, camera bag, camera, backpack, camera bag, filters, lens cleaning kit, sensor cleaning kit, remote switch, tipod ball head, printer, printer paper, printer ink, etc.
Remember while it's more expensive than drugs, it's healthier.
Sam
However, I did, in the same period, buy a 20D Canon body, a 300mm L-glass lens, and a 17-40mm L-glass lens. I will add to that an extender for the 300, and a wolverine storage thing as I don't know how many CF cards I would have to own to be enough. That is going to bring storage of photos uploaded to my computer into question. I am thinking I am going to have to break down and buy a DVD thing sometime, along with those expensive CDs for the DVD to store the photos on. I already have an external hard drive. But I don't consider that safe enough. And CDs don't hold enough.
So there are still some expenses. But you can cut corners. Ask yourself if you really need all those prints. Can save a bunch on ink.:D
ginger
I really appreciate all your helpful responses...especially yours Harry, and yours, Greaper! You've made it a lot more understandable for me. So now it looks like what I should be doing is researching the lenses and accessories for each camera brand I'm considering (though it's still pretty overwhelming with all the different stuff they both have available!).
As for my own gear...I already have two tripods, a monopod and lots of compact flash memory (though I do plan to buy at least a 1 gig card so I can shoot RAW). I have Photoshop already, a decent computer, a dvd and cd R-W drive. I will be buying an external flash for the new camera and maybe an extra battery and/or charger. I already have 3 camera bags...in 3 sizes (small, med. and large!). I've got a fistful of filters to fit 58mm (but a step-up ring will adapt them to the Nikon kit lens, if that's what I end up getting...). I have a digital wallet and a small laptop that has a CF card slot for downloading directly from CF cards. In other words...I'm pretty well set up in basic photo accessories. I just need a better camera
I'm feeling a bit less overwhelmed... I know you all meant well when you said buy the system, not the camera. But for someone who's never owned a dslr, it was like you were speaking a foreign language and expecting us to know what you meant! I still don't really have any idea of what the differences are between the Nikon and Canon systems (especially the lenses), but I guess I'll need to do a whole lot more research to try and figure that one out
Anyhow, thanks again for helping to make sense of it. I don't feel so scared now,
Cheers!
~Nee
ps. now if someone could make a simple statement about the basic differences between the Canon and Nikon systems...I'd be a really happy camper!
http://www.pbase.com/rdavis
If at first you don't succeed, destroy all the evidence that you tried~
But regardless what you settle on, you'll be married to it once you start
adding glass and other accessories. You can be assured that either camera
system is good.
OBTW, for those of you near a higher end camera store, see if you can look
at some big Canon glass and the equiv Nikon. I swear, I think they're made in
the same factory...
Ian