The Creative Mind and the Technical Mind - the Yin and Yang of photography

sparkyphotog · June 12, 2007

I'm fairly new to this board and I thought I would throw out this topic for discussion. I'm sure there are lots of opinions here, and I'm interested in hearing the various points of view, so here goes...

What I'm referring to in the title I think goes to the essence of the medium of photography, especially since the mass migration into the digital relm. Photography has always been a technical art form, requiring intense study and practice to perfect the craft of putting a quality image on paper, or today on the computer screen. Then there is the creative aspect of photography, the art. In my view, this is what separates the wheat from the chaff. There are probably billions of technically superior images, but only a few of those rise to the level of exceptional in their artistic merit.

I consider myself to have, for the most part, mastered the technical aspects of digital photography. I can routinely turn out images with the ideal color rendering, contrast, and tonal range. I feel like I have a technical mind, I am an IT professional after all! :lol3 Yet I struggle with the creative side of photography. Occasionally, I see flashes of creative brilliance in some of my work, they are rare, and more often than not are more a matter of sheer luck than anything else. I've read too many books on photography to count, many of them dealing specifically with the creative aspects of the art. Yet, when faced with a beautiful field of wildflowers for example, I stare at it befuddled. I start trying different angles, different apertures, and all the other tools we have. When I get home and download the shoot, though, I'm very often disappointed in the results.

The technical side of photography can be learned, that is obvious. There are some that are of the opinion that the art of seeing can be learned as well, that the eye can be trained to see. Then there are those who believe that it can't. I often see photographers who are obviously gifted with the ability see creatively. I watch them and see their work and am in awe of it, and I know that they just see things differently.

I've rambled on enough that I think you get the idea of the internal struggle I'm having of the creative mind vs. the technical mind. I'm just wondering if anyone else thinks about this the way I do. If nothing else, this should be a good topic of discussion that might benefit many people on this board.

saurora · June 12, 2007

I think you are in a very desireable position if you have mastered the technical skills required for a good photograph! That's an an enviable position to be in and half of the battle. What you haven't figured out perhaps is the message you want to convey with your photography. I'm still in the self-discovery phase myself. My photography is very ecclectic, and I capture a wide variety of subjects. This can be frustrating sometimes. It's like not being able to figure out "what I want to do when I grow up". And yes.....I haven't figured that out either! But what I am discovering is that when I shoot certain subjects that I don't feel a connection to, I don't shoot well. I think a little soul-searching and thought given to what moves you emotionally is necessary. I have been giving some thought personally as to what types of messages would I like to convey in my work. I'm not against branching out and trying new things, but when I work with what I love best, I produce better work.

claudermilk · June 13, 2007

Boy does this hit a chord! I'm in the very same boat. I feel I have gotten at least competent with the techincal aspects of photography--good enough that I can easily work with my full-manual medium format rig and light meter. However, there are many times where I am at a wonderful location, I *know* there are fantastic opportunities there, and am just baffled as to where to start. Other times there's a less-obvious location, yet I know the true artists would see all kinds of interesting things, yet I'm missing it--and know it.

I know there's talk about "vision" and "personal style" and I have seen that with some famous photographers, while others it just looks like nice photos to me. Sometimes I wonder how much of that is real and how much is BS meant to sound impressive to rich art patrons.

Either way, I am sure I don't have either right now. :cry The fact that I like trying different ideas is probably hindering that as well.

I thought learning the mechanics of shutter, aperture, DOF, etc. was difficult and fristrating. But it's nothing compared to trying to develop the artistic side of photography. While I do have one niche I've gotten pretty decent at--dance photography--and the dancers all love the work, it's pretty much reactionary event photography. When it comes down to say selecting a project to work on, my head start to hurt trying to figure out how to arrive at a unified series of photos that mean anything and are visually pleasing. :bash:splat

I'm interested to hear what others have to say.

Shay Stephens · June 13, 2007

My road started from an IT background. I spent a few years getting the technicals down. Once I was comfortable with dealing with the technicals without having to spend all my mental energy on it, I decided to pursue the artistic side of things. My new years resolution was "to be more artistic". I kept repeating that to myself as my goal.

Over the course of that year, I started thinking more artistically. It was a mental muscle that grew with exercise. About two years later, I changed my years goal to "be the artist". That is where I find myself now.

Do it in steps, and really work at each step. With time and experience, your skills will grow. And that is what photography is, a skill, that anyone can learn. Some learn faster than others, but all can learn it

Strav · June 13, 2007

Excellent topic, and I suppose the whole "rub" about photography today is that anyone can conceivably pick up a camera, master it's technical side and shoot relatively good pictures. The advent of digital photography has allowed the "masses" to do just that. Coming from a motion picture film and still film photography background, I think that what is lost in the argument primarily is the fact that digital has increased the want and desire to master the technique, to make the picture "3 dimensional", to make the photograph inevitably look like it has been shot on film. And with so many sources out there to read now and programs perhaps to learn in order to process that picture just so, what gets lost often is the right-minded, creative side of photography. Before you would pick up a role of film after picking out your asa, chose you shutter, aperature, lens, rely on the films ability to forgive somewhat throughout its particular range of exposure latitude, and either send it into the lab or process it yourself, and voila, you have your shot. Now because that latitude in essense has been taken away from you, photographers have to be that much more certain and particular about their settings from beginning to end. Perhaps a case of the actual mastering side of things placing such a burden on the form, that the form itself becomes blurred and lost.

I think the saying is "throw all conventions out the door" once they are learned. What may help you in your pursuit is to substitute that technical book for a fiction novel. Watch a good film whether it be old or new. Think about taking that shot as if you were telling a story and there is no better influences then by doing the above two things imo. Understand that by photographing something at a certain height, chosing a certain shutter speed, aperature, iso, lens, framing a shot a certain way, adjusting for contrast and saturation, picking a WB, etc., is nothing more then just a mere function or aid of telling that story.

When I go out shooting, I always think... hmmm... lol.... what am I trying to say here, what story is being told, imagine this shot as a frame in a film. Establishing shot? Close-up?

And yet I'm still not that good at it. More like a master of none.

Shay Stephens · June 13, 2007

Strav wrote:

What may help you in your pursuit is to substitute that technical book for a fiction novel. Watch a good film whether it be old or new. Think about taking that shot as if you were telling a story and there is no better influences then by doing the above two things imo.

Great post!!!

Awais Yaqub · June 13, 2007

Nice post i enjoyed reading.
I am in Business field. Since childhood i was always inspired by art work around photo or painting. I remember i used to make water color paintings in complete dark when everyone was sleeping

.
Cameras techincally i don't know much about camera's.I read about it in books but never did anything practically.Just keep on experimenting with my equipment.
I am still learning artistic aspect of photography.

Thanks

Terrence · June 13, 2007

I think a lot of us here are in the throes of this internal battle. Everyone's comments resonate with me. I'm still working towards mastery of the technicals, so major kudos to those you on the happy side of that learning process. I'm currently in a very frustrated place with my technical ability.

Strav's comments are excellent. Too often I forget the reason I am doing this. Storytelling and communication is the goal...at least my goal. Thank you for pointing this out and getting it back to the front of my mind.

My work right now is essentially capturing what is in front of me. I am not thinking (or seeing) the emotion, beauty, story, meaning of a scene. I'm not pleased with that, but that is where I am and I need to work at getting past this.

In my work in Physics, Mathematics and IT I have followed the formula/process of read>>reproduce>>repurpose>>innovate and this post inspired me to think about how I could apply this to photography.

I read a lot to understand the theory.
I reproduce the work of others to help the theory and reading sink in.
I repurpose the work of others to solve a similar problem and help the theory, reading and doing sink in even more.
Once I master the technical/mechanical aspects, I use my grey cells to innovate using the new tools at my disposal.

Applied to photography this might look like

Read the "classics"...Understanding Exposure, The Negative, an in depth book about your camera, etc.
Copy the work of photographers or images you admire (Dgrinners, film, famous photogs, etc.).
Put a twist or spin on images you admire by shooting in different light, rainy or sunny, different angle, etc.
Develop a picture in your minds eye and figure out how to make the camera capture that.

This may be far too left-brain a way to look at this, but I love process. It gives me somethign to measure against.

One bit of advice I can give is from one of my mentors. He told me, "It takes ten years to get ten years of experience." Experience alone is not enough of course. You must use your experience to learn and grow. That does calm me down when I get angry that I'm not at the level I want to be.

LiquidAir · June 13, 2007

A actually break the skills of Photography into a few more categories:

1. Technical. This is knowing how the equptment works and what every knob and dial does. I include in it such esoterica as the widest acceptable aperture on the Canon 50/1.4 and detailed knowlege of how to get critical focus out of your AF system. You have a one time chance to shoot a portrait of a CEO, what gear do you bring and how do you prep it?

2. Craft. This is how you put all the tools you have together to create an image. What combination of aperture and background separation do you use for a headshot? How do you set up the camera and flash for candids in mixed incandescent/flourescent light between EV5 and EV7? How do you manage the exposure and dynamic range of sunsets? You are shooting a portrait of a CEO, what tools do you have at your disposal to make him look impressive?

3. Art. What is your personal vision? What inspires you? What do you want to say with your photographs? You are shooting a portrait of a CEO, do you want him to look impressive or sleazy?

4. Luck. A good photographer uses loaded dice. What do you do to create the opportunities for great photographs? You want to shoot a portrait of a CEO; who do you know that can get you access and what places do you know that will make a good stage?

5. Performance. This is really the the preparation, practice, motor memory and quick thinking that put it all together so you are ready when the decisive moment hits. You are shooting a portrait of a CEO; how do you manage the gear and posing efficiently so he looks engaged rather than bored or, worse yet, walks out on you?

sparkyphotog · June 13, 2007

Wow, really great stuff everyone. Nice to know there are others in the boat with me, even though we may not have any paddles.

I like what Shay said about the muscle that needs to be excercised to grow and goal setting. That makes a lot of sense to me. I hope to hear more from others in the forum. Great discussion so far - thanks!

saurora · June 13, 2007

I think you really struck a cord with this thread, especially with the LPS Challenges going on and everyone working to 'flex' their creative muscles!

JillG · June 13, 2007

Oh, the illusive art thing...
Art is something that is so hard to define

When we look at art we experience something. That something can a passing smile all the way up to a life changing jolt. That's about the best I can do to define what I want my photos to say, at least right now.

I think that most, if not all, of us here actually do know what we want to say. It's just subconscious. It's the subconscious that drives us to do all that hard, hard work of learning the technial aspects of the camera, and photoshop (of one kind or another), and (for some of us) computer and online stuff. Why would we do that if we had nothing to say? Don't you feel driven sometimes that you have to get a shot of that? (Whatever that is)

There's been a lot of good advice so far and interesting comments. I agree with Shay about attitude. It is helpful to decide to be artistic.

Sometimes when taking photos I am so involved hardly anything else exists. For example I know people are talking but I can't understand what they are saying . It's almost a dream state of mind. I don't know I'm in it until I come out of it.:D Could be the subconscious coming through or it could be the right-left brain thing. ( I forget which side is the creative one) . I mention it only to tell those of you worried about creativity to relax and let go sometimes. Just let it flow, you may surprise yourself. and above all keep shooting.

Thanks for the thread. Interesting topic and reading.

Jill

claudermilk · June 14, 2007

Great stuff! I knew this was going to be a good thread.

I really like Shay's comment about exercising that "muscle"--gives some hope.

I also liked Terrence's post. I have in fact read some of the classics: Ansel's series. I found the first two books to be the most useful since he talks more about the process of capturing the image and the Zone System--and cameras are still at the base level the same thing. Yes! I actually get the Zone System's concepts now--I just need a spot meter to try and put that into practice. The third book I've found less useful since digital printing is completely different from the '80's technology he used at the time.

I have collected a few books of the masters' works. I just need to sit down and look at them and figure out why those images are so influential. It's harder than I'd thought.

jonh68 · June 14, 2007

I think it may be time for you to stop studying photography and other people's work. Put the camera in P mode and shoot. Worry about exposure and ISO but nothing else. Just concentrate on the composition and forget the technical aspects. Some photgraphers need to concentrate on the techincal stuff as they got the compostion down. Others need to concentrate on composition. I say don't think about the technical and wing it.

If you do need to study composition, look at art and movies. You can get real good ideas about color from paintings and good lessons of perspective from movies. I would recommend studying anything but photography at the moment for your particular situation. Then, you get go back to studying photography from a different prespective.

sparkyphotog · June 17, 2007

jonh68 wrote:

I think it may be time for you to stop studying photography and other people's work. Put the camera in P mode and shoot. Worry about exposure and ISO but nothing else. Just concentrate on the composition and forget the technical aspects.

Now why didn't I think of that?

That's the first time I've ever heard someone tell me to forget some of the technical stuff and just shoot. I think you may be on to something.

jdryan3 · June 21, 2007

Shay Stephens wrote:

My road started from an IT background. I spent a few years getting the technicals down. Once I was comfortable with dealing with the technicals without having to spend all my mental energy on it, I decided to pursue the artistic side of things. My new years resolution was "to be more artistic". I kept repeating that to myself as my goal.

Over the course of that year, I started thinking more artistically. It was a mental muscle that grew with exercise. About two years later, I changed my years goal to "be the artist". That is where I find myself now.

Do it in steps, and really work at each step. With time and experience, your skills will grow. And that is what photography is, a skill, that anyone can learn. Some learn faster than others, but all can learn it

Shay - Great comment. I enjoy your work. I just hope the year of thinking artistically didn't start 20 years ago. I will have a long way to go!

Lump me in with this group: IT / Process Driven / Very Analytical. In the Enneagram world, I am a 5. Or I was. In reality I am a 7. And my new process is , as Shay mentioned, to repeat it to myself. Work at ALL of this on a regular basis, like any good exercise program. I have to feel it deep inside.

I know that posting my images on public forums, showing them to people I respect, and taking in the criticism is a vital part of my growing. Part of the inner search for me is "what is the role of my photography in my life." Not just my vision - WHY do I do this?

On the OP's post title, there are actually 2 books intersting books: Tom Ang's Tao of Photography , and Philippe L. Gross and S.I. Shapiro's The Tao of Photography: Seeing Beyond Seeing. I like both, maybe Tom's a little more, but they focus on jonh68's earlier comment on putting away all the security of techno-how and the fear, and just doing it. I forget that sometimes (OK, I forget it a lot!

).

All that said, it is hard to work at this and try and be unique, to develop my own voice. I just spent 3 days on the Colorado Plateau - Cedar Beaks, Kolob Canyon, Zion, North Rim, Valley of Fire, etc. 72 hours, with only 12 hours sleep, 850 miles, 3 sunsets and 3 sunrises. I knew the technical parts. Lots of bracketing, extra room on panos for stitching, specific things I wanted to do with lenses. Framing was more intuitive with the rule of thirds (sometimes the horizon just does have to go in the center). I tried to enjoy the sites, sights and moments for what they were.

And yet, and yet, I could hear Gary, Shay, DavidTo, Andy, Pathfinder, et. al. looking at the final images, saying "but it does nothing for me. I've seen that, shot it, been there." And with that in the back of my mind, I would pause, try for a different perspective, look for an element of scale, and search for a take on it that was all mine.

And THAT is why I do this. To work at it, to learn and to share with the like minded spirits on this forum. To find out that the people who have already answered earlier are people whose work I respect, and yet they too question why.

Just go with the flow...

claudermilk · June 21, 2007

jdryan3 wrote:

Shay - Great comment. I enjoy your work. I just hope the year of thinking artistically didn't start 20 years ago. I will have a long way to go!

Lump me in with this group: IT / Process Driven / Very Analytical. In the Enneagram world, I am a 5. Or I was. In reality I am a 7. And my new process is , as Shay mentioned, to repeat it to myself. Work at ALL of this on a regular basis, like any good exercise program. I have to feel it deep inside.

I know that posting my images on public forums, showing them to people I respect, and taking in the criticism is a vital part of my growing. Part of the inner search for me is "what is the role of my photography in my life." Not just my vision - WHY do I do this?

On the OP's post title, there are actually 2 books intersting books: Tom Ang's Tao of Photography , and Philippe L. Gross and S.I. Shapiro's The Tao of Photography: Seeing Beyond Seeing. I like both, maybe Tom's a little more, but they focus on jonh68's earlier comment on putting away all the security of techno-how and the fear, and just doing it. I forget that sometimes (OK, I forget it a lot! ).

All that said, it is hard to work at this and try and be unique, to develop my own voice. I just spent 3 days on the Colorado Plateau - Cedar Beaks, Kolob Canyon, Zion, North Rim, Valley of Fire, etc. 72 hours, with only 12 hours sleep, 850 miles, 3 sunsets and 3 sunrises. I knew the technical parts. Lots of bracketing, extra room on panos for stitching, specific things I wanted to do with lenses. Framing was more intuitive with the rule of thirds (sometimes the horizon just does have to go in the center). I tried to enjoy the sites, sights and moments for what they were.

And yet, and yet, I could hear Gary, Shay, DavidTo, Andy, Pathfinder, et. al. looking at the final images, saying "but it does nothing for me. I've seen that, shot it, been there." And with that in the back of my mind, I would pause, try for a different perspective, look for an element of scale, and search for a take on it that was all mine.

And THAT is why I do this. To work at it, to learn and to share with the like minded spirits on this forum. To find out that the people who have already answered earlier are people whose work I respect, and yet they too question why.

Just go with the flow...

Great post.

So, do those "Tao of Photography" books do anything for you? I've looked at the in B&N a couple of times, but still haven't bought one yet.

jdryan3 · June 21, 2007

claudermilk wrote:

Great post.

So, do those "Tao of Photography" books do anything for you? I've looked at the in B&N a couple of times, but still haven't bought one yet.

Chris -
I think so. They keep me from retreating into (and hiding in) another "Photoshop in 3 steps to world class images" book. Not that those aren't important - they are. But I agree with the OP's premise that to be a better photographer, I have to move beyond the safety of the technical.

Better photographer than what? Than I am today. Nothing more. And those books help me get there. They remind me to do the simple things - like breath. :whew

LiquidAir · June 21, 2007

jdryan3 wrote:

Chris -
I think so. They keep me from retreating into (and hiding in) another "Photoshop in 3 steps to world class images" book. Not that those aren't important - they are. But I agree with the OP's premise that to be a better photographer, I have to move beyond the safety of the technical.

When I first read this thread, I was thinking the technical meant camera technique. Exposure, aperture control, focus, white balance, and lighting. Generally my inclination with a photograph is if I can't fix it in a couple of minutes in Photoshop or Lightroom, I abandon it an shoot some more. One of the lessons for my in the Last Photographer Standing competion has been how much can be done in Photoshop to make a good capture better. Even so, when I am shooting for myself I rarely bother with much more than the basics. There is always another image around the corner; I don't want spend time on old shots when I could be taking new ones.

For me, the creative mind means moving beyond photography as a record of what I have seen to photography with something to say: shots with an idea, a reaction, a story, an emotion or a mood. Its about being concious about what I have to say when the camera is in my hands and making choices which get that message across.

As I read this thead I get the sense that not everyone draws the line between the creative and the technical in the same place. Maybe its not so black and white but really shades of grey.

jdryan3 · June 21, 2007

LiquidAir wrote:

When I first read this thread, I was thinking the technical meant camera technique. Exposure, aperture control, focus, white balance, and lighting.

For me, the creative mind means moving beyond photography as a record of what I have seen to photography with something to say: shots with an idea, a reaction, a story, an emotion or a mood. Its about being concious about what I have to say when the camera is in my hands and making choices which get that message across.

As I read this thead I get the sense that not everyone draws the line between the creative and the technical in the same place. Maybe its not so black and white but really shades of grey.

I totally agree on the technical/technique distinction, the mechanics if you will. But I think the mechanics issue applies both to in camera, as you point out, and to post processing - set white & black point, S curve, the basic "recipe" of using PS, Corel or whatever you choose. That was the reason for my buried in a book on PS comment. Doing nothing but reading about Ansel's Zone System is as bad. I need to avoid getting caught up in the mechanics of either, especially if it keeps me from working on getting out and finding that story.

claudermilk · June 22, 2007

Great posts, guys!

I think of the mechanics side as both the operation of the camera (setting shutter, aperture, picking the combo for your desired DOF, etc.) as well as the post processing stuff. That's all the nuts & bolts parts of getting your vision saved in an image. It's that having a vision part that keeps getting me stumped. Anyway, this thread has definitely gotten me thinking about the vision & art part of the process more & I think the creative juices are starting to flow a bit. I'm wanting to get some of my recent stuff finished and get the camera out to try new things again.

The Creative Mind and the Technical Mind - the Yin and Yang of photography

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