Where do you draw the line?

JOHNYREB

Hello all, I'm new to all of this and ran into a situation today that has never occurred to me before. Up till now, my photos have been of things around the house, and my own family. I was asked today by an out of town relative to take some photos to e-mail her of her mothers grave marker that was recently placed. While there, camera in hand, I noticed a lady in her 40's along with a little girl sitting at the grave of who I presume was Dad having a picnic lunch with the departed for Fathers Day. I have to admit, when I saw the scene, I thought of the current challenge and thought an entry called "Fathers Day" would really have been in the spirit of LPS 7. It truly was a compelling sight, but I could not bring myself to "intrude" on their picnic by taking a picture even from a distance.

This incident made me wonder how some others would have handled this situation. I do not regret not taking the photo, but being new to this, I was just wondering where others draw the line of taking pictures of strangers. Do you ask permission, try to shoot discretely, or have a frame of mind that if it's a public place, it's fair game?

Had this been somebody out jet skiing, or running in a park, I would have felt differently about taking a picture, and this probably would not have occurred to me. But somehow "stealing" somebody's sorrow like that did not sit right with me. Thoughts?

Ron

Ann McRae

I am totally unable to photograph strangers - I have tried street shooting, tried including people into larger scenes, and I just do not feel right. Others are comfortable and accomplished street photographers and/or photojournalists and I respect their work. You just have to do what makes you feel right in your skin. Sounds like you did just that.

ann

JOHNYREB wrote:

Hello all, I'm new to all of this and ran into a situation today that has never occurred to me before. Up till now, my photos have been of things around the house, and my own family. I was asked today by an out of town relative to take some photos to e-mail her of her mothers grave marker that was recently placed. While there, camera in hand, I noticed a lady in her 40's along with a little girl sitting at the grave of who I presume was Dad having a picnic lunch with the departed for Fathers Day. I have to admit, when I saw the scene, I thought of the current challenge and thought an entry called "Fathers Day" would really have been in the spirit of LPS 7. It truly was a compelling sight, but I could not bring myself to "intrude" on their picnic by taking a picture even from a distance.

This incident made me wonder how some others would have handled this situation. I do not regret not taking the photo, but being new to this, I was just wondering where others draw the line of taking pictures of strangers. Do you ask permission, try to shoot discretely, or have a frame of mind that if it's a public place, it's fair game?

Had this been somebody out jet skiing, or running in a park, I would have felt differently about taking a picture, and this probably would not have occurred to me. But somehow "stealing" somebody's sorrow like that did not sit right with me. Thoughts?

Ron

saurora

I shoot birds at a cemetary that is near to my workplace. Although no one ever questions my being there, I try to give privacy to those who are visiting gravesites. I have seen some interesting sites. This old cemetary has beautiful grounds and families bring umbrellas and picnic lunches and appear to be enjoying themselves while remembering their loved ones. I have taken 2 photos. One of a colorful umbrella and chairs, which shows no people. Another of a young woman placing flowers on several graves. This I shot from behind the subject and processed in a watercolor type action. I took special care to obscur names on a nearby headstone, trying to make the shot appear more 'generic' for lack of a better description, and less personal. I have avoided many possible interesting shots because they are so personal. If one were truly compelling, I might consider shooting and then approaching the person for permission to use. I see nothing wrong with that approach, however, personally I would probably would not want to intrude.

Angelo

interestingly I found myself at a cemetary yesterday and saw many of the same scene you've described.

personally I would not photograph people in this situation however I do find images of headstones, particularly ancient ones, compelling.

I do want to offer this advice: do not assume you are free to take shots because you're in a "public" setting. Most cemetaries are privately owned so you are technically a guest. It could be argued that people visiting a departed relative's gravesite have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Rhuarc

Angelo wrote:

interestingly I found myself at a cemetary yesterday and saw many of the same scene you've described.

personally I would not photograph people in this situation however I do find images of headstones, particularly ancient ones, compelling.

I do want to offer this advice: do not assume you are free to take shots because you're in a "public" setting. Most cemetaries are privately owned so you are technically a guest. It could be argued that people visiting a departed relative's gravesite have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

If it is a cemetery owned by the vity or county, however, would this still be the case? Also, isn't there something about if you take a photo of someone on private property, but they are out in the open and you are on public property then there is no expectation of privacy. Meaning that if someone is standing naked on the front lawn of their private property you could take a picture of them from the street and there is no expectation of privacy.

Is this wrong?

silica

Here's a publication you might want to peruse. It's written for reporters, but it contains a lot of information that probably applicable to privacy concerns with any photography.

http://rcfp.org/photoguide/

Angelo

Rhuarc wrote:

If it is a cemetery owned by the vity or county, however, would this still be the case?

I suppose not but I was referring specifically to private cemetaries.

Rhuarc wrote:

Also, isn't there something about if you take a photo of someone on private property, but they are out in the open and you are on public property then there is no expectation of privacy.

Yes but that instance is not presented in this thread.

Rhuarc wrote:

Meaning that if someone is standing naked on the front lawn of their private property you could take a picture of them from the street and there is no expectation of privacy. Is this wrong?

No it is not wrong, however I believe certain statutes come in to play regarding the extent to which a photographer went to have clear site of the person "from the street".

Terrence

I agree with the go-with-your-gut school of decision-making on this. Legal issues aside, you need to go with what you feel is right and don't worry that someone else may disagree. The ethics of the local culture, the culture of the photographer and the culture of the subjects all come in to play making "situational awareness" all that much more of an important skill to hone. Every opportunity requires a judgement call and a gut check.

jonh68

Higly emotional scenes like that I probably would not shoot. It would all depend on the moment. However, if it felt right, I might take the picture and then approach them later on after the picnic was over and they were leaving. Put yourself in their shoes. If you were honoring the deceased that way, and they captured a special moment, would you want the picture? I think I would.

I would say something respectful of the moment and tell them I got a picture. They may want the picture. In regards to entering it into a contest, challenge, that may be tricky but I would not do it unless I got their permission. As a freelancer, I shoot these kind of things all the time because the paper likes candid shots of everyday life. I try to take a picture without them knowing, but I let them know afterwords I took it and show them the pic. In every case so far , they appreciate the attention and some ask for the picture, or at least one in the series as I cannot do anything with a pic once the paper has it. It comes down to getting a good "vibe" on how they would be receptive.

JOHNYREB

Thank you all for your opinions as well as the link to the legal concerns. Being new to this, I was not sure if the was some unwritten photographers code of conduct on how situations like this where handled. Thank you all for the insight.

John, I loved the pictures of the dolphins in your gallery and noticed some photos of Soldiers Creek as well. Did you shooot the dolphins there?

Thanks again to all,

Ron

jonh68

JOHNYREB wrote:

Thank you all for your opinions as well as the link to the legal concerns. Being new to this, I was not sure if the was some unwritten photographers code of conduct on how situations like this where handled. Thank you all for the insight.

John, I loved the pictures of the dolphins in your gallery and noticed some photos of Soldiers Creek as well. Did you shooot the dolphins there?

Thanks again to all,

Ron

I did! I was working on a house in Soldiers Creek for a month and this pair would usually swim through everyday. This particular day, they put on a free show!

dogwood

I'd shoot it if I was being paid (ie photojournalism) but would probably leave it alone otherwise. I have been paid to shoot funerals (lots of dead US soldiers these days) but always with a long lens and events open to the public. Plus-- dead soldiers are a bit of a different matter than private grieving. At some point, even as a photographer, you have to turn it off and be a human.

BRATCH

dogwood wrote:

I'd shoot it if I was being paid (ie photojournalism) but would probably leave it alone otherwise. I have been paid to shoot funerals (lots of dead US soldiers these days) but always with a long lens and events open to the public. Plus-- dead soldiers are a bit of a different matter than private grieving. At some point, even as a photographer, you have to turn it off and be a human.

Like Dogwood said, you have to walk a fine line. Having been in several "delicate" situations, the trick is to not intrude.

I actually ran into a similar situation not too long ago, I'll try and hunt up the photo. A writer and I were covering a ceremonial flag placing for veterans in a smalltown cemetery. Elementary school kids were placing the flags and my writer noticed one of the kids standing over a grave. She pointed him out and we noticed that he wiped a tear from his eye.

I frantically switched lenses to get some more zoom (still not enough) and as just as I'm ready to start shooting another kid comes up and puts his arm around him consoling the kid who stopped by his grandparents' grave.

It was great stuff and the kids didn't mind at all. Of course they knew what they were getting into when they got there that afternoon.

My philosophy is to not intrude and keep a low profile. If they don't know their picture was taken they usually don't mind when/if you approach them about it.

Also, as far as the public view goes, if you can see it from public property (i.e. streets, roads, city owned parks, etc.) it's fair game. However, you are treading on thin ice when/if you climb a tree or break out a ladder or something. And if someone gives you permission to shoot from their property it's still not really kosher.

A good rule of thumb is to be either standing the street/road or within a few feet of it.

Just found the photo.