30d v 1D as my 20d ages?

Ann McRae

So, I have not paid enough attention to know the differences between the 1D and 1Ds etc. As people move to the MkIII I expect a few MkII to be available. As my 20d has done yoeman service to me, and I do not see a 40d announcement, I need to figure out what best meets my needs.

Since my primary shooting is done on a sports field, I need a good sports camera and it has been mentioned that the 5d is not.

I am afraid of the size of the 1d series, as I have smallish arthritic fingers.

So, please chime in and direct me toward the correct purchase.

ann

dragon300zx

Ann I just "ordered" a 1D MKII like I was saying in the other thread (flea market). I have shot with one once for sports and it blew me away. I'm selling my 10D and making the 20 my backup. The 1Ds isn't as fast as the 1d MKII and since I'm used to the 1.3 crop I figured I wouldn't know what I was missing with the full frame and I really wanted the speed so.... I say go for it .

Ann McRae

20d
1.6 crop factor
LCD is 1.8"
weighs 770g
continuous shooting to 23 frames .jpg

30d
LCD is 2.5"
wiehgs 787g
continuous 5 fps/3fps to 30 jpegs - so slightly better than the 20d

1D Mark II N
1.3 crop factor
LCD is 2.5"
weighs 1556 g
continuous shooting 8fps up to 40 jpg

Clearly, the only negative of the 1D is the weight!

So who is a gambler? buy a 30d on spec of my 20d dying, and upgrading to the 40d when it comes? Or buy the 1D and not upgrade for a long time?

dragon300zx wrote:

Ann I just "ordered" a 1D MKII like I was saying in the other thread (flea market). I have shot with one once for sports and it blew me away. I'm selling my 10D and making the 20 my backup. The 1Ds isn't as fast as the 1d MKII and since I'm used to the 1.3 crop I figured I wouldn't know what I was missing with the full frame and I really wanted the speed so.... I say go for it .

David_S85

Ann McRae wrote:

So who is a gambler? buy a 30d on spec of my 20d dying, and upgrading to the 40d when it comes? Or buy the 1D and not upgrade for a long time?

Ann, with the amount of sports you shoot, I can only see you getting the 1DIIn. A camera to grow with.

Ann McRae

David_S85 wrote:

Ann, with the amount of sports you shoot, I can only see you getting the 1DIIn. A camera to grow with.

David - besides being faster, what other advantages do you see? What pluses are there to compensate for the size issue?


Another question - how will my lens line up fair of the 1.3 crop rather than the 1.6 - I have the 70 -200, the 135mmf2, the 85mmf1.8, the 50mf1.4 and the 17 - 85mm.

and finally, since my editing seems to sck (see my record in LPS) mayb a new monitor is a better use of spare bucks?

ann

saurora

Ann, any chance of you renting (or borrowing?) a 1D for a week??? I certainly can relate to the weight of a camera as on certain days my 20D hurts my hands and fingers. Sounds like other than weight, it's the camera for what you shoot.

David_S85

1DIIn Pros:

Larger photosites - better signal/noise (cleaner shots & better low light noise performance).

Faster low-light focusing and just faster focusing, period.

Exposure compensation ±3 stops vs. ±2 stops.

Better wide angle coverage with your lenses.

Faster burst at 8.5 fps. & 40 JPG shots.

3 WB memories (not a big deal).

Memory Capacity. Supports both CF and SD cards. You could put RAW on one and JPEG on the other, or both for backup. Or, you could place a 8GB card in one slot and another 4GB in the other and have 12GB on board.

More robust shutter (this might make sense).

More water resistant.

Cons:

Won't take EF-S lenses

Not as much reach with long lenses due to the crop factor being 1:1.3 vs. 1:1.6 on the xxD series cams

Heavier, by about twice. But then again, lenses for sports are already kinda heavy. If you shoot with a monopod, this might not be as big an issue as it appears.

No built-in flash like the xxD series.

Ann McRae

Thank You, David - this is great information. When I joined dgrin, I really stopped paying attention to camera analysis. If I am correct, the only EF-S lens in my kit is the 17 - 85. So that would have to stay with the 20d. And then I'd also need a longer lens for outdoor soccer.

Okay, now I need to talk it over with the banker. Kids poopoo'd a Christmas vacation, so I will just spend that money on myself!!!!

ann

David_S85 wrote:

1DIIn Pros:

Larger photosites - better signal/noise (cleaner shots & better low light noise performance).

Faster low-light focusing and just faster focusing, period.

Exposure compensation ±3 stops vs. ±2 stops.

Better wide angle coverage with your lenses.

Faster burst at 8.5 fps. & 40 JPG shots.

3 WB memories (not a big deal).

Memory Capacity. Supports both CF and SD cards. You could put RAW on one and JPEG on the other, or both for backup. Or, you could place a 8GB card in one slot and another 4GB in the other and have 12GB on board.

More robust shutter (this might make sense).

More water resistant.

Cons:

Won't take EF-S lenses

Not as much reach with long lenses due to the crop factor being 1:1.3 vs. 1:1.6 on the xxD series cams

Heavier, by about twice. But then again, lenses for sports are already kinda heavy. If you shoot with a monopod, this might not be as big an issue as it appears.

No built-in flash like the xxD series.

Ann McRae

I don't know anyone with a 1d right now - could go into the camera store and hold on to one.

My hands do ache after a day of holding the 20d - even if it is on a monopod, I have to try not to grip it really tightly all the time.

ann

saurora wrote:

Ann, any chance of you renting (or borrowing?) a 1D for a week??? I certainly can relate to the weight of a camera as on certain days my 20D hurts my hands and fingers. Sounds like other than weight, it's the camera for what you shoot.

claudermilk

What they've all said. I have been looking for future reference. My 20D is about as aged as yours & I'm thinking about its successor. Looks like we have similar needs (action shooting), and what I've seen that's the best bet is indeed the 1D Mk IIN followed by the older 1D MkII. The 1Ds Mk II is more of a studio camera (FF 16MP, 5fps, mega $$$$) and the older 1D just doesn't cut it. Of course, the ultimate would be the MkIII, but again, $$$$.

I'm waiting for both the Mk III to fully depress the Mk II prices and for my bank account to be able to handle the purchase. Hopefully that happens before the 20D dies. :tiptoe

ziggy53

Ann,

David has highlighted most of the advantages of the 1D MKIIN. For daytime sports, the 30D is a great camera and could serve you well.

For night sports, the extra sensitivity of the MKIIN makes perfect sense. You gain one full stop of extra shutter speed and you don't relinquish much tonality or noise. The extra responsiveness makes a tremendous difference in both capture rate and keeper rate, both improving on the MKIIN.

I shot night football with a full-size lightweight tripod. The extra stability more than makes up for the more cumbersome moving around. Since you aren't constantly steadying the camera, the comfort level is greatly improves, and you can concentrate more on the game and shooting opportunities. You do have to be aware of other people moving on the sidelines, but I was aware of them more because they might interfere with the shot itself. You can always bring in the legs for a smaller footprint if you shoot in a crowd. On ground that was not level, I used the tripod collar to adjust for level between shots, avoiding leveling the tripod itself.

You will find that it is not often practical to switch lenses during the game. The 70-200mm f2.8L is still the best bet for a general purpose sports lens, but a 300mm F2.8 is great for deeper action. (I don't have one but the local newspaper has one for their Nikon D2H cameras. They use 2 bodies and two lenses for most outdoor sports.)

Ann McRae

Thank you ziggy. This is really good information.

ann

ziggy53 wrote:

Ann,

David has highlighted most of the advantages of the 1D MKIIN. For daytime sports, the 30D is a great camera and could serve you well.

For night sports, the extra sensitivity of the MKIIN makes perfect sense. You gain one full stop of extra shutter speed and you don't relinquish much tonality or noise. The extra responsiveness makes a tremendous difference in both capture rate and keeper rate, both improving on the MKIIN.

I shot night football with a full-size lightweight tripod. The extra stability more than makes up for the more cumbersome moving around. Since you aren't constantly steadying the camera, the comfort level is greatly improves, and you can concentrate more on the game and shooting opportunities. You do have to be aware of other people moving on the sidelines, but I was aware of them more because they might interfere with the shot itself. You can always bring in the legs for a smaller footprint if you shoot in a crowd. On ground that was not level, I used the tripod collar to adjust for level between shots, avoiding leveling the tripod itself.

You will find that it is not often practical to switch lenses during the game. The 70-200mm f2.8L is still the best bet for a general purpose sports lens, but a 300mm F2.8 is great for deeper action. (I don't have one but the local newspaper has one for their Nikon D2H cameras. They use 2 bodies and two lenses for most outdoor sports.)

Ann McRae

Hi Chris
I am being talked into the 1d. I appreciate the feedback about the 1D v 1Ds - didn't know that.

I am really worried about my shutter dying in the next few months, especially with the shootout and preshoot out upcoming.

ann

claudermilk wrote:

What they've all said. I have been looking for future reference. My 20D is about as aged as yours & I'm thinking about its successor. Looks like we have similar needs (action shooting), and what I've seen that's the best bet is indeed the 1D Mk IIN followed by the older 1D MkII. The 1Ds Mk II is more of a studio camera (FF 16MP, 5fps, mega $$$$) and the older 1D just doesn't cut it. Of course, the ultimate would be the MkIII, but again, $$$$.

I'm waiting for both the Mk III to fully depress the Mk II prices and for my bank account to be able to handle the purchase. Hopefully that happens before the 20D dies. :tiptoe

claudermilk

More specifically, a few pertinent items for action:

1Ds Mk II: FF 16.7MP 4fps, CF & SD cards, 32JPEG/11RAW buffer, $7,000 @ B&H
1D Mk IIN: 1.3 (APS-H) 8.2MP 3fps or 8.5fps, CF & SD cards, 40JPEG/20RAW buffer, $3,300 @ B&H (~$2,500 used)
1D Mk II: 1.3 (APS-H) 8.2MP 8.3fps, CF & SD cards, 40JPEG/20RAW buffer, $2,500 (KEH LN+)
1Ds: FF 11MP 3fps, CF only, 10JPEG/10RAW, $3k (KEH LN)
1D: 1.3 (APS-H) 4.2MP 8.2fps, CF only, 21JPEG/16RAW buffer, $1,500 (KEH LN)

So the 1Ds models are really not meant for action with the slower fps and limited buffers (though their buffers are better than our prosumer 20Ds). The 1D is far enough out-of-date I'd prefer to skip it. That gets to the 1D Mk II and Mk IIN with their reasonable APS-H 8.2MP sensors, deep buffers and fast fps. The Mk IIN also has a nice save-your-butt feature like the 1Ds Mk II where it will switch to the SD card when your CF fills--that's a nice feature & I have a shooting buddy who used a 1Ds MkII and made use of that (bastage went & got a MkIII now & he's too nice to really hate, more's the worse). So looking at the features and current pricing, I feel the 1D MkII bodies are really the best bang-for-the-buck right now when stepping up from the xxD level.

Interestingly, looking up proces at KEH, I notice 30D's new are just over $1k, and 20Ds LN- are only $100 less. Seems their 20Ds are high & 30Ds are low. Anyway, if $2.5k is way too much, a 30D from KEH seems a possibility.

Ann McRae

The 1DmkIIN arrived today. First glance, and I couldn't see how to put the battery in. Looks like I'll need a day with the manual, and a week or more to get used to it.

Think it is too much to expect to use it plus the 580Ex at the same time for a paid shoot this coming weekend?

David_S85

Ann McRae wrote:

The 1DmkIIN arrived today.

Ann McRae wrote:

Think it is too much to expect to use it plus the 580Ex at the same time for a paid shoot this coming weekend?

Ann, that's 4 days away. You'll do fine! And the manual isn't that long. When you get the battery in it, just stick a lens on it and turn the mode dial to that green fully auto rectangle thingy and.... oh, wiat, it doesn't have that mode

You'll do fine.

USAIR

Ann McRae wrote:

The 1DmkIIN arrived today. First glance, and I couldn't see how to put the battery in. Looks like I'll need a day with the manual, and a week or more to get used to it.

Think it is too much to expect to use it plus the 580Ex at the same time for a paid shoot this coming weekend?

Can't wait to see your photos with the new camera...I think you made the right choice

This thread helped me in my next camera choice.

Have fun with the new toy

Fred

claudermilk

Ann McRae wrote:

The 1DmkIIN arrived today.

have I mentioned I'm jealous? Just checking...

Seriously, congratulations. It's just a camera, so you should be fine. You know, point the round glass thingie at the subject & push the buton on the top right corner...

S. Horton

A great choice.

FWIW, general reference on the EOS line:
http://www.usa.canon.com/app/pdf/slr/EOS_System_Bro2006.pdf

On the 1D, and in particular look over how the AF functions on the 1D, this is also where you'll get firmware updates:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&tabact=DownloadDetailTabAct&fcategoryid=314&modelid=12012


Enjoy!!!

sirsloop

1D = BETTER VIEWFINDER!!! thumb

One thing I suggest you never do if you are shooting with a rebel/20d/30d and have 4 grand burning a hole in your pocket.... never visit B&H and play with a 1D! Well, I suppose if you want to drop a couple grand on goodies then go for it...

Dante

Congrats Ann - can't wait to see a few shots from your new camera!

John Mueller

Make her comfortable Ann,she is use to a hand strap:smooch

Ann McRae

I will John, I will treat her very well.
I got the battery in tonight, ran through the menu and so on.
One big surprise, and something I think will be great for me, is the dual shutter button - potrait or landscape! How cool is that!

Hope to have a gallery of samples by the weekend.

ann

John Mueller wrote:

Make her comfortable Ann,she is use to a hand strap:smooch

sirsloop

Thats what the grips are for on a rebel/20-30d. Dual controls... its great!

claudermilk

Ann McRae wrote:

One big surprise, and something I think will be great for me, is the dual shutter button - potrait or landscape! How cool is that!

That is why I placed my BG-E2 on order a mere 24 hours after taking posession of my 20D. Yes, it is very cool, and your shoulder will thank you after an extended session shooting mainly portrait-oriented pics. The 1D-series has the nice advantage that it's all part of the body instead of a tacked-on accessory. Have I mentioned lately I'm jealous? :patch

sirsloop

lol... my grip went on before I even turned the thing!! I took the grip out, took the body out, put the grip on, put a battery on, and THEN played

gtc

tokina 300mm/f2.8
If you want to experiment with a 300/f2.8 and don't mind manually pre-focusing(lots of sports shooters turn off AF and do this) then a used Tokina ATX 300mm/f2.8 is sharp and not too much money. These are fast enough to give you a shallow DOF and give you the extra length you now need with a 1.3X crop factor.

bham

sirsloop wrote:

lol... my grip went on before I even turned the thing!! I took the grip out, took the body out, put the grip on, put a battery on, and THEN played

After having a vertical grip for my film camera, 3 or 4 cameras ago, every camera since I purchase the grip at the same time(if not built in). To me a camera feels naked without it.

20DNoob

Congrats on the new body!

I'm super jealous also, soon enough though and I'll have my own.

As for turning off the AF with a 2.8 or faster attached, to heck with that. One of the reasons to be using 2.8 or faster is to access all the 45 focus points the 1DMkIIN has to offer.

To bad your not local, otherwise we could do a meet up and I'd let you try out the 300 2.8L IS and see just how fast the focusing is. Even on my 20D+1.4 it's pretty dang fast.

Ric Grupe

Lucky duck!

Take a look at this, Ann.



http://www.kgear.com/h/

claudermilk

sirsloop wrote:

lol... my grip went on before I even turned the thing!! I took the grip out, took the body out, put the grip on, put a battery on, and THEN played

Hey, it's still my first DSLR, and the old film camera from back when (a Minolta 7000i) didn't have one available (at least that I'm aware of). I figured it out pretty quick.

On a side note, I have a shoot late next month that I have a 1Ds Mk II at my disposal. :ivar:pimp I'm going to try and get my hands on a 300/2.8IS to go with it. Will likely be very bad for my bank account in the end. :uhoh