Please tell me I did the right thing!
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Registered Users Posts: 521 Major grins
I just returned from vacation to find an inquiry to license some of my photos for use in a book. The guy is an award-winning journalist, has written for several very large US papers, has published other books, and is currently a co-host on a major sports network in Europe. He found me through some work I had done for someone else. Thing is, he wanted me to let him use the photos for free in exchange for a credit line. Says he "can't afford to pay." I replied that I would be happy to calculate a price if he were to provide me with specifics, but I would not be interested in doing it for the credit line only.
My husband is telling me I made a big mistake because at this stage of the game it helps to have another publication to add to my resume, and since I don't "need" the money what's the big deal. He thinks the added credibility from it is worth it. I think the credibility comes if the guy is willing to pay for the images. Of course, he'll probably find someone else who is willing to let him use their photos for free.
I really need some love and support from people who understand because it was really hard to say no and realize that means that I may not get another publication credit to add to my very short list, especially with my husband telling me I made a mistake. Wow, saying no is so hard to do early in the game.
Lori
My husband is telling me I made a big mistake because at this stage of the game it helps to have another publication to add to my resume, and since I don't "need" the money what's the big deal. He thinks the added credibility from it is worth it. I think the credibility comes if the guy is willing to pay for the images. Of course, he'll probably find someone else who is willing to let him use their photos for free.
I really need some love and support from people who understand because it was really hard to say no and realize that means that I may not get another publication credit to add to my very short list, especially with my husband telling me I made a mistake. Wow, saying no is so hard to do early in the game.
Lori
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That said will I do charity work. Yes. For an established charity, fundraiser, or something like that that I believe in I will.
For a book that someone is going to be trying to make money off of? For anything that someone is going to be trying to turn a profit off of? No. They pay.
They need to earn money to pay their bills, put food in front of them, etc. How can they expect me to go without money to pay my bills, put food on my table, etc.
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On one hand of course you'd like to have one more publication with your name in it (since it'll be something that you can use to prove your legitimacy to other potential clients). On the other hand, working for free cheapens your worth, your work, and the industry of photography as a whole.
To me, it sounds like he's about to take advantage of you - surely he wouldn't be asking a notable photographer to donate their work.
So he can't afford to pay huh? So he doesn't get the pictures:D
You can be sure he gets paid well for his writing, and he wouldn't have become an award winning journalist by giving his work away. I can't tell you the number of times I've had this said to me in the past. In my early days as a photographer I would happily give away my work for a byline and a free copy of the publication, and do you know what happens ? you get a reputation - not for being the good photog you are, but for being free/cheap. For me there is no discussion or wavering, if I'm approached my first question is always 'Do you have a budget for these pictures ?' and if the answer is no, then my answer is no too.
You may think it doesn't matter in the wider sense if you give your pictures away, but in fact it undermines the profession as whole. I can only speak for what I understand of the UK market, which is that the past 10 years have seen rates reduce for picture usage and day rates, and all the while the photographer is investing more money in equipment, which is superceded within 1 year, software updates etc etc, the net effect is that the bottom line is diminishing year by year. Every time picture usage if given away this contributes to the problem.
I agree with you Lori that credibility come with being paid for your work, and yes I expect he will find someone else to give him pics for free - if its your pics he wants he will find the money.
Caroline
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I totally understand how you feel about this issue and I understand your husband's point of view as well. I've worked in TV and video production for many years and this issue comes up quite a bit, especially in the early stages of ones career, or attempt at getting paid for such work. And I've never given it away.
I try to turn the tables and ask if they are willing to spend their time, energy and talents in producing something for me - for free! And since this person is a writer, ask if he would be willing to write up an article about you, send if off to the magazines, newspapers, etc., he works for and make sure it gets published. And you'll give him credit for doing all this when you repurpose it to your website. I doubt he would return the favor.
I'm always amazed at how people ask of others what they would not be willing to do themselves. Yes, you could use the credit, I suppose, but how many people in the long run are going to hire you because of this one credit.
Now if it was a national, big-time publication that we all would recognize, that might be different. Otherwise, I say take the highroad and be a pro. Then others will treat you like a pro.
My 2 cents.
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You did what you thought was right and I totally agree with you. Its not always easy to say NO. Congrats.
It will now be easier for you to do this in the future.
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Charlie
For myself, I am willing to let people use my photos in trade for publicity as long as it is the kind of publicity I want. Part of that, of course, is making sure that the project the photos are being used for is something I want to be associated with. However, if I was swamped with paid for work, I might think differently.
After reading this thread though I believe it was ok to do that and will just wait and see. I do believe if you want to be taken seriously you should treat yourself and your work seriously. I do volunteer time and 'donate' images to very few organizations, all local and quite small non profits.
I hope it works out for you!
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Guess I should've clarified the "don't need the money" comment - only meant that I am not a full-time pro; I have a completely unrelated job and fit photography in as I can, which is not often enough. Didn't mean it in any kind of snooty way and I apologize if it came across that way, especially to all of the REAL pro's out there who really have to hustle up business.
Thanks again for the support. It's easy to let this one go knowing I made the right decision.
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So, yes it is sad that a) he expects freebies and b) he'll be able to find someone who will give them. :cry
I am finding the same thing with walking away from those kinds of "offers." It is much easier when you know you have done right by yourself and your profession.
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I'm an IT professional, and my resume does not contain any "worked for free" entries to try to impress prospective employers.
I doubt many professional photographers gave away their work for free in the idea it will get them "recognized" or allow them to have a resume entry.
Isn't your work, published or not, the proof on whether you should be hired?
The biggest problem is that too many people want recognition because they aren't persuing photography as a career. Thus, many predators looking for free photography take advantage of this.
If you want a resume entry, assist another professional. You'll learn while also proving you have experience in the field. Also, the possibility of side jobs may arise.
One should not let their hobby and ego encroach upon another's profession.
So, yeah, you did the right thing.:D
Everything he says is right on the money. I agree with all of it, and as an IT manager I have to say I have choosen not to hire people based on "jobs" they had listed as their actual job, when they weren't being paid. If that person doesn't think they are good enough to pay, why would I want to pay them.
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Make that 3 IT pros in a row who agree. Any 'no pay' things I do I list as Other / Volunteer Activities on the bottom of my resume. And I expect people who apply for jobs (excepting students) to do the same.
-Fleetwood Mac
I had an email early last week with someone asking the price of a photo. Thats it...how much.
I replied immediately asking what it is to be used for...the week went without a reply. Monday afternoon i arrived home from work with several emails pleading with me to contact her as the printer is closing off at midday & also its only then that she decided to tell me what its for........a 250 000 circulation mag with my shot on the front cover.
She was the one whom left it until the last day to tell me what the photo is to be used for & then she proceeded to do the marketing department thing of laying blame at my feet for going to work on mon & not being there to help her out & saying its such a shame that i missed out. She seemed shocked when i told her i honestly couldnt have cared less & that she was the one whom left it till the last min. I wont be drawn into peoples games.
Great story, Gus. And a good reminder about responsibility. Who's job is it anyway?
And I agree. the guilt trip is a buch of BS losers use to reflect responisbility.
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First off, let me say that I think that a person should do what THEY think is right...
Second, I make the majority of my living shooting pictures, so I have some personal experience here.
While I believe in a lot that has been posted here, there is always the other side of the fence. Nothing is really black and white...
Consider this: How much would it be worth to have your name/company name, in the hands of the exact prospective costumers that you wish to be selling "services" to? IE: If you are working toward being a wedding photog, how much would it be worth to be published in a major wedding magazine?
It's worth a lot!
How much does an ad cost in said magazine? And, an ad is something anyone can purchase, not everyone gets the opportunity to have their pictures chosen for publication.
I had a couple of pics published one time in a small magazine, heck, didn't pay but $30 bucks, but... I got several shoots from people SEEING my pics and business name in the little magazine.
So... Even if I hadn't received payment for those pics, I would have still come out WAY ahead due to the work that came from them being published.
On another note that I'm not really understanding from reading some of the post...
Most pubs that I deal with have a set price structure for pics they publish. I don't know the exact formulas (cover: x price - inside 1/2 page: x price, circulation numbers, etc.), but they have the prices set.
So, if the offer is to get published without monies changing hands, you can figure out how much this "advertising" is going to cost you. Helps to make an educated decision.
And, I've not seen any publications were it's posted (Joe Blow photog was paid $xxx.xx dollars for the pictures published in this months issue)
My point:
Yes, you can put being published by XYZ magazine on your resume... It shouldn't be disclosed one way or the other what, (if any) compensations there were. Makes no difference... The difference it does make is if you have even been published. Credibility
While I have not given any pics away for publication purposes, I think that as LiquidAir stated, if it's directly related to the type of business that your going after, one might want to think about it as not a "give away", but as an advertising cost. An investment if you will.
Obviously I'm bucking the tiger here, but just thought that I would point out a different viewpoint on the issue.
I'll finish by restating: I think that a person should do what THEY think is right...
Professional organizations are created not only to help and educate, but also to set standards that should be adhered to help ensure the success of the profession. So doing what one feels is right may be positive, it also may have bad ramifications.
Good day Keith,
I'm not sure if you read anything in my post between the first and last lines, but by your response I wouldn't think so.
I was responding to the original poster about giving usage rights in exchange for a tag line. I gave specific info about that topic with an example. Something for her to consider...
Do to my specifics, I did not consider that my first and last statements would be taken out of context of the post.
But, to address your concerns: I do not believe that if the original poster had traded picture usage rights for a tag line, that society would collapse into Anarchy. No mention was made of any professional organization that I remember reading in her post. But, there are a lot of professions that "give" services away, and have not gone by the wayside. Attorney's come to mind here. Lot's of Pro Bono work done...
Anyway, I apologize for not being specific enough.
I think that the original poster should do what she thinks is right in regard specifically, whether or not to give picture usage rights in exchange for a tag line...
http://www.epuk.org/Blogs/637/by-gum-theyre-cheap-up-north
Caroline
EDIT: - and this
http://www.epuk.org/Blogs/613/one-hand-schmapping
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I did put a reminder on my calendar to follow up on this next year. Unfortunately, the person who referred this author to me is in possession high-res copies of the photos in questions (they are licensed for a very specific use). I want to make sure they aren't given away behind my back.
Gus, sorry about the cover but I completely agree with your point. I had a friend who would calmly reply in that kind of situation, "A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part," and she would go on her way.
It's been really interesting to read everyone's thoughts on the topic.
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I'm glad they raised a chuckle
Caroline
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