Man ... a tough spot. Sticking with Nikon makes more economic sense. Going Canon makes more image quality sense. It looks to me that Nikon is a compromise while Canon is really what you want to do.
I suggest either borrow or rent a 30D for the weekend and see if the difference in high ISO IQ is significantly better to make the switch. Regardless of what we all at DGRIN think ... it is you that has to live and work with the choice.
Man ... a tough spot. Sticking with Nikon makes more economic sense. Going Canon makes more image quality sense. It looks to me that Nikon is a compromise while Canon is really what you want to do.
I suggest either borrow or rent a 30D for the weekend and see if the difference in high ISO IQ is significantly better to make the switch. Regardless of what we all at DGRIN think ... it is you that has to live and work with the choice.
Gary
And if he's gonna Borrow a 30D to try, to check out the Cannon side, he should also, while he's at it, borrow both a D200 and an S5Pro and see what they feel like.... Still think the S5Pro is the answer to his dilemna without giving up Nikon equipment and from what I've seen, most new S5Pro users coming from Nikon stop using their Nikon's once they have the S5Pro and unless you plan to be printing posters (2x3 feet+) the resolution differences should negligible.
It's really my feeling after watching this thread since it started is that his mind is actually already made up and was before he posted. Without checking out the S5Pro pro or any of the newer Nikon's he'll end up switching to Canon. It's all in the rumor mill: "Nikon images are flat, washed out and noisy at high ISO" and "Canon gets great IQ and good high ISO results." Since those two are the giants, those two are the only ones that will be seriously considered and it's quite clear from the Rumor mill which company is supposed to better fit his requirements: Canon.
And if he's gonna Borrow a 30D to try, to check out the Cannon side, he should also, while he's at it, borrow both a D200 and an S5Pro and see what they feel like.... Still think the S5Pro is the answer to his dilemna without giving up Nikon equipment and from what I've seen, most new S5Pro users coming from Nikon stop using their Nikon's once they have the S5Pro and unless you plan to be printing posters (2x3 feet+) the resolution differences should negligible.
It's really my feeling after watching this thread since it started is that his mind is actually already made up and was before he posted. Without checking out the S5Pro pro or any of the newer Nikon's he'll end up switching to Canon. It's all in the rumor mill: "Nikon images are flat, washed out and noisy at high ISO" and "Canon gets great IQ and good high ISO results." Since those two are the giants, those two are the only ones that will be seriously considered and it's quite clear from the Rumor mill which company is supposed to better fit his requirements: Canon.
I totally agree with your first paragraph ... disagree with the second. Personally I don't think it's fair to assume you know what he's thinking or to toss in your rumor remarks. Most of this thread is comprised of personal experience and well developed opinions.
Renting the gear in question is probably the best route--a small investment to be certain of the decision before dropping a whole lot of money one way or the other.
I think this thread has been very well-balanced in the opinions and advice given compared to what you usually see.
Oh, and for a general barometer of pricing, I'd look at KEH. Under-rate your gear by about a level or two from what you think--they are very conservative with their ratings.
I have a question, I looked at several nikon lenses and several canon lenses and from what I've seen, Nikon has a edge on image resolution...
Another thing that I've noticed is that Canon has less noise at high ISO's (>1200) than Nikon (I wonder if it is the sensor or the algorithmns they use to record the image). Personally, when I was considering buying my camera, it was a toss between the Nikon D80 and the Canon 30D. Although I liked the fact that I can shoot at a higher ISO, I preferred the 10 megapixel camera over the 8 megapixel camera (I crop final images pretty often so this was a bigger factor). Since I had the camera for two months now, I never shot over ISO 1000 (I usually shoot at ISO 100 and bump it up as I need it, usually 400, sometimes 800).
As mentioned before, the bottom line is what fits you style more. I am very happy with my Nikon and my Nikon Lenses (will be getting a Nikkor 17-55 f/2.8 next).
From a visceral level, the Nikons look cooler.
I shot wedding under apprentice program. There are other 4 apprenticees joining the program under supervision of one pro photographer. All other apprenticees are using 350d and 400d, and the instructor is using mark12dn.
I have oppotunity to test their gear and found that the 350 and 400d is smallish but ok with the vertical grip and lack of button to make instant adjustment. I found mark12dn is very interesting eventhough i only hold it and viewing the lcd, its lower iso even more impressive but this is beyond my $$.
All of them using 1600 iso because most of the weddings are indoor, i have to use 800 iso to avoid image quality. Still i found out that their images are superior at iso800 vs iso 1600 :cry. And what really interesting, they also shot some of their pics without using flash i.e. low-key photography which looks creative and very nice. I have tried shooting without flash and my pics turn blur because of lower shutter speed because i have to maintain using iso800.
Nikon seems very good when using flash, and they seems impressed with the nikon exposure. Since my shooting is not entirely wedding only, nikon seems do very well in other shooting conditions that use lower that iso 800. Some indoor sports prohibit from using flash, this also the main obstacle here.
Honestly i have no interest with s5pro because i feel i rather choose D200 unless my shooting is only on wedding. I will try suggestion on borrowing my friend's camera if he allows me to but nobody has 30d, and we have no renting services here ... make it more difficult to decide :cry
I appreciate with all the responses .. you guys are very wonderfulclapi will think of ways to meet final decision coz i am not in a hurry ... hopefully d300 and 40d will be released soon.
I appreciate with all the responses .. you guys are very wonderfulclapi will think of ways to meet final decision coz i am not in a hurry ... hopefully d300 and 40d will be released soon.
Mind you, I don't have any inside contacts in the industry, but have good ears for reading the market and catching rumors and by the rumor mill I've heard:
The 40d is supposed to be unveiled in the near future, Canon seeming to be rushing through camera models at that market level.
Have heard nothing about the d300, but have heard rumors that there is a d200x coming out before too long.
Also, a couple other notes.
Again, pitching the S5Pro, I'll note it's not just a wedding/portrait camera despite that being what it seems most aimed at. It's good for anything that a high DR helps with, or shooting anything with strong highlights.
Finally, a reason to consider sticking with Nikon technology: Nikon's New Patent. In short, Nikon's move into Full RGB sensors (like some Medium Format Backs and the Foveon X3 sensors) has been filed, so I wouldn't be surprised if they have a camera out that uses it within the next 2 or 3 years. Only other company I am sure is playing in the full RGB sensor race right now is Sony and they are still in R&D. Canon on the otherhand seems very happy with their Bayer technology right now.
wow, full RGB sensors on the camera like the Foveon sensor... I sure the first cameras will be fantastic but expensive. I look into this when getting my second camera body. The image quality will get a another significant bump, I sure all cameras will be moving in this direction within the next 5 years.
I have a question, I looked at several nikon lenses and several canon lenses and from what I've seen, Nikon has a edge on image resolution...
Another thing that I've noticed is that Canon has less noise at high ISO's (>1200) than Nikon (I wonder if it is the sensor or the algorithmns they use to record the image).
That's pretty much the difference I saw whne shopping. Nikkor traditionally had an edge in the glass--though Canon has made great strides, there's a number of real gems in their lineup. Canon has a decided edge in noise with their CMOS sensors & Digic chip processing. I suspect it's a combination of hardware and software making for the total advantage.
Personally, when I was considering buying my camera, it was a toss between the Nikon D80 and the Canon 30D. Although I liked the fact that I can shoot at a higher ISO, I preferred the 10 megapixel camera over the 8 megapixel camera (I crop final images pretty often so this was a bigger factor). Since I had the camera for two months now, I never shot over ISO 1000 (I usually shoot at ISO 100 and bump it up as I need it, usually 400, sometimes 800).
As mentioned before, the bottom line is what fits you style more. I am very happy with my Nikon and my Nikon Lenses (will be getting a Nikkor 17-55 f/2.8 next).
From a visceral level, the Nikons look cooler.
You were pretty much one generation behind my own comparison: D100 vs 20D. Didn't care about pixel count--it was close enough to be moot. The main thing is that noise--Canon's superiority here met my needs better. So I jumped the fence from my predisposition to go Nikon--my sister shoots a D100, I have a Coolpix, and have always liked the Nikons--and joined the crowd for once. It's a matter of choosing the right tool for the job; when you're doing fine cabinet work, you don't reach for the roofing hammer.
That Nikon RGB patent sounds interesting, though complicated.
Finally, a reason to consider sticking with Nikon technology: Nikon's New Patent. In short, Nikon's move into Full RGB sensors (like some Medium Format Backs and the Foveon X3 sensors) has been filed, so I wouldn't be surprised if they have a camera out that uses it within the next 2 or 3 years. Only other company I am sure is playing in the full RGB sensor race right now is Sony and they are still in R&D. Canon on the otherhand seems very happy with their Bayer technology right now.
There is another link describing the "newly released" patents, based on documents submitted over 4 years ago:
Comments
I suggest either borrow or rent a 30D for the weekend and see if the difference in high ISO IQ is significantly better to make the switch. Regardless of what we all at DGRIN think ... it is you that has to live and work with the choice.
Gary
Unsharp at any Speed
And if he's gonna Borrow a 30D to try, to check out the Cannon side, he should also, while he's at it, borrow both a D200 and an S5Pro and see what they feel like.... Still think the S5Pro is the answer to his dilemna without giving up Nikon equipment and from what I've seen, most new S5Pro users coming from Nikon stop using their Nikon's once they have the S5Pro and unless you plan to be printing posters (2x3 feet+) the resolution differences should negligible.
It's really my feeling after watching this thread since it started is that his mind is actually already made up and was before he posted. Without checking out the S5Pro pro or any of the newer Nikon's he'll end up switching to Canon. It's all in the rumor mill: "Nikon images are flat, washed out and noisy at high ISO" and "Canon gets great IQ and good high ISO results." Since those two are the giants, those two are the only ones that will be seriously considered and it's quite clear from the Rumor mill which company is supposed to better fit his requirements: Canon.
I totally agree with your first paragraph ... disagree with the second. Personally I don't think it's fair to assume you know what he's thinking or to toss in your rumor remarks. Most of this thread is comprised of personal experience and well developed opinions.
Unsharp at any Speed
I think this thread has been very well-balanced in the opinions and advice given compared to what you usually see.
Oh, and for a general barometer of pricing, I'd look at KEH. Under-rate your gear by about a level or two from what you think--they are very conservative with their ratings.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
Another thing that I've noticed is that Canon has less noise at high ISO's (>1200) than Nikon (I wonder if it is the sensor or the algorithmns they use to record the image). Personally, when I was considering buying my camera, it was a toss between the Nikon D80 and the Canon 30D. Although I liked the fact that I can shoot at a higher ISO, I preferred the 10 megapixel camera over the 8 megapixel camera (I crop final images pretty often so this was a bigger factor). Since I had the camera for two months now, I never shot over ISO 1000 (I usually shoot at ISO 100 and bump it up as I need it, usually 400, sometimes 800).
As mentioned before, the bottom line is what fits you style more. I am very happy with my Nikon and my Nikon Lenses (will be getting a Nikkor 17-55 f/2.8 next).
From a visceral level, the Nikons look cooler.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
I have oppotunity to test their gear and found that the 350 and 400d is smallish but ok with the vertical grip and lack of button to make instant adjustment. I found mark12dn is very interesting eventhough i only hold it and viewing the lcd, its lower iso even more impressive but this is beyond my $$.
All of them using 1600 iso because most of the weddings are indoor, i have to use 800 iso to avoid image quality. Still i found out that their images are superior at iso800 vs iso 1600 :cry. And what really interesting, they also shot some of their pics without using flash i.e. low-key photography which looks creative and very nice. I have tried shooting without flash and my pics turn blur because of lower shutter speed because i have to maintain using iso800.
Nikon seems very good when using flash, and they seems impressed with the nikon exposure. Since my shooting is not entirely wedding only, nikon seems do very well in other shooting conditions that use lower that iso 800. Some indoor sports prohibit from using flash, this also the main obstacle here.
Honestly i have no interest with s5pro because i feel i rather choose D200 unless my shooting is only on wedding. I will try suggestion on borrowing my friend's camera if he allows me to but nobody has 30d, and we have no renting services here ... make it more difficult to decide :cry
I appreciate with all the responses .. you guys are very wonderful
Mind you, I don't have any inside contacts in the industry, but have good ears for reading the market and catching rumors and by the rumor mill I've heard:
The 40d is supposed to be unveiled in the near future, Canon seeming to be rushing through camera models at that market level.
Have heard nothing about the d300, but have heard rumors that there is a d200x coming out before too long.
Also, a couple other notes.
Again, pitching the S5Pro, I'll note it's not just a wedding/portrait camera despite that being what it seems most aimed at. It's good for anything that a high DR helps with, or shooting anything with strong highlights.
Finally, a reason to consider sticking with Nikon technology: Nikon's New Patent. In short, Nikon's move into Full RGB sensors (like some Medium Format Backs and the Foveon X3 sensors) has been filed, so I wouldn't be surprised if they have a camera out that uses it within the next 2 or 3 years. Only other company I am sure is playing in the full RGB sensor race right now is Sony and they are still in R&D. Canon on the otherhand seems very happy with their Bayer technology right now.
http://www.youtube.com/user/NYCFilmmakersGroup
http://www.meetup.com/NYC-Filmmakers-and-Actors-Meetup-Group/
You were pretty much one generation behind my own comparison: D100 vs 20D. Didn't care about pixel count--it was close enough to be moot. The main thing is that noise--Canon's superiority here met my needs better. So I jumped the fence from my predisposition to go Nikon--my sister shoots a D100, I have a Coolpix, and have always liked the Nikons--and joined the crowd for once. It's a matter of choosing the right tool for the job; when you're doing fine cabinet work, you don't reach for the roofing hammer.
That Nikon RGB patent sounds interesting, though complicated.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
There is another link describing the "newly released" patents, based on documents submitted over 4 years ago:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/NEWS/1186694099.html
It is widely believed that Canon also has similar technology filed for patents regarding "full color" imagers.
Understand that many companies file for patents, but never really develop commercial products against the patents.
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