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Please need advice on focusing group photo

KMWKMW Registered Users Posts: 118 Major grins
edited August 22, 2007 in Technique
Hi,
I did a search on this forum and found some answers to some questions I have but I'm hoping someone can help me with a few more. I have been getting plenty of practice photographing my 1 year old and 2 1/2 year old. I always try to get their eyes in sharp focus. I can never get them together to practice photographing 2 people and I have a photo session coming up soon with 2 boys and a puppy outdoors in the morning. We will be doing both posed group shots and individual candid shots. I have my camera set to AF-A Single area focus with matrix metering. Will that setting work to keep all three in focus if I keep the f stop between 8 and 11? If so where should I focus? If they are side by side should I focus on one of their cheeks? Should I switch to Dynamic area focus instead of Single area focus? Should I try focus and recompose? Any advice I would really appreciate. I just bought the 50 1.8 for indoor low light situation but I like to use this outdoors as well. Should I use the 50 1.8 instead of the zoom lens. I also just bought the SB600. I haven't had enough practice with the external flash outdoors so I'm hesitant to use that. Thanks in advance.

Kathi
Nikon D80
18-135mm 3.5-5.6
50mm 1.4
SB600

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    SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited August 17, 2007
    You have allot of questions in one paragraph. I'll try to answer them all though.
    • AF-Single Area is your best bet for this situation.
    • Keeping all three subjects eyes sharp at f8-11 is a relative question. The key thing to understand is that at a fixed aperture, the larger you want your subject to appear, the less depth of field you have. For instance, if you are taking a full length portrait at f/8 you have enough DoF to get almost any background close to focus. If you are shooting a tight headshot at f/8 you have less DoF and only a very close background is going to be in focus. (italic taught to me by LiquidAir)
    • Focusing on the cheek is going to be your best bet on the individual shots. On the group shots, your going to need to open up your DOF to try to keep all three sets of eyes in focus. So focal point won't be as much of a concern w/ the greater DOF.
    • Don't focus and recompose. Talk about some BORED kids! You'll get some real snoozer shots if you spend too much time finding focus perfection. Todays AF systems are so fast, you should worry about composition and interacting w/ the kids to make the shoot fun instead.
    • A prime lens like the 50 1.8 (aka the nifty fifty) will almost always help your shots to come out more sharp when they are inside your circle of confusion (and your a few stops higher that maximum aperture {f1.8})unless your ready to drop a couple grand on some pro level glass. *sighs and recalls all the glass that he's seen and will never own.
    • You made a great decision getting the SB-600 vs the SB-800. Put your speedlight on A-TTL and let your camera work on the fill light. You bought some good gear. Let it work for you instead of you trying to beat it into submission.
    REMEMBER:
    An interactive happy kid in an OK portrait will always make a better shot than a bored kid in a technically perfect shot.

    TIP:
    Turn off AF assist on your settings. All this function does is drain your battery faster.

    I'm going camping this weekend and will be away from my machine. If you have Photoshop 6 or higher. I have a few really neat easy tricks I've learned that will help the eyes appear sharp even when they aren't tack sharp. PM me if you'd like to know how. I'll set up a tutorial for you since I want to set this tut up anyway. This will help me just pull the trigger on making it happen.

    Have fun when you shoot. Kids are like animals (in the nicest possible way) they can sence your tension and dread and it bleeds over into their personality if your not careful.

    -Jon
  • Options
    KMWKMW Registered Users Posts: 118 Major grins
    edited August 17, 2007
    SloYerRoll wrote:
    You have allot of questions in one paragraph. I'll try to answer them all though.
    • AF-Single Area is your best bet for this situation.
    • Keeping all three subjects eyes sharp at f8-11 is a relative question. The key thing to understand is that at a fixed aperture, the larger you want your subject to appear, the less depth of field you have. For instance, if you are taking a full length portrait at f/8 you have enough DoF to get almost any background close to focus. If you are shooting a tight headshot at f/8 you have less DoF and only a very close background is going to be in focus. (italic taught to me by LiquidAir)
    • Focusing on the cheek is going to be your best bet on the individual shots. On the group shots, your going to need to open up your DOF to try to keep all three sets of eyes in focus. So focal point won't be as much of a concern w/ the greater DOF.
    • Don't focus and recompose. Talk about some BORED kids! You'll get some real snoozer shots if you spend too much time finding focus perfection. Todays AF systems are so fast, you should worry about composition and interacting w/ the kids to make the shoot fun instead.
    • A prime lens like the 50 1.8 (aka the nifty fifty) will almost always help your shots to come out more sharp when they are inside your circle of confusion (and your a few stops higher that maximum aperture {f1.8})unless your ready to drop a couple grand on some pro level glass. *sighs and recalls all the glass that he's seen and will never own.
    • You made a great decision getting the SB-600 vs the SB-800. Put your speedlight on A-TTL and let your camera work on the fill light. You bought some good gear. Let it work for you instead of you trying to beat it into submission.
    REMEMBER:
    An interactive happy kid in an OK portrait will always make a better shot than a bored kid in a technically perfect shot.

    TIP:
    Turn off AF assist on your settings. All this function does is drain your battery faster.

    I'm going camping this weekend and will be away from my machine. If you have Photoshop 6 or higher. I have a few really neat easy tricks I've learned that will help the eyes appear sharp even when they aren't tack sharp. PM me if you'd like to know how. I'll set up a tutorial for you since I want to set this tut up anyway. This will help me just pull the trigger on making it happen.

    Have fun when you shoot. Kids are like animals (in the nicest possible way) they can sence your tension and dread and it bleeds over into their personality if your not careful.

    -Jon

    Thank you for your very detailed reply. Sorry for the long paragraph and amount of questions. I'm still learning. Just when I think I understand it, a new situation comes up and I have more questions.

    Anyway I will take your advice and keep my camera on AF-A single area focus and open up the depth of field.

    I have been photographing mostly candids of children but this mother wants some posed shots. This will be new to me. I prefer candid. I feel children are more themselves when shooting candid photos. We will be doing the photos at an outdoor sculpture museum. I think the boys will have fun looking at all the sculptures.

    I will use my prime lens....I wish I had that for the last event (an indoor birthday party). I didn't realize how inexpensive this lens was and it's great for low light. Somebody else in this forum just bought one and it made me want to go out and get one for myself. I am spending more money than I am making so far. Hopefully it will payoff in the long run.

    The SB600 flash I have been playing with. The three settings I have are TTL, TTL BL or M 1/1. I have been using TTL outdoors and TTL BL indoors. Is TTL the same as A-TTL? I'll have to look it up because I know you are away for the weekend.

    I would be interested in your tutorial but only have Photoshop elements 5. If you think it can be done in this version, I would love to hear how to do it.

    Thanks again,
    Kath
    Nikon D80
    18-135mm 3.5-5.6
    50mm 1.4
    SB600
  • Options
    Van IsleVan Isle Registered Users Posts: 384 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2007
    The previous poster covered the technical stuff, but I don't think he emphasized it enough: INTERACT AND MAKE IT FUN for the kids, what a difference. I just did my first studio/model shoot...wow, I have a ways to go before I can really draw out what I want from models and feel that interaction through the lens.

    The PP said it well:
    An interactive happy kid in an OK portrait will always make a better shot than a bored kid in a technically perfect shot.

    See if you can do some quick reading on "tricks" to play with kids and stuff. Should be fun.

    as for your flash, I have the SB 800, and the systems are so smart they do balanced fill flash out doors really well. Use it! (or an assistant and a reflector for 1/10000000000 the price...wings.gif )

    VI
    dgrin.com - making my best shots even better since 2006.
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    SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2007
    Van Isle wrote:
    as for your flash, I have the SB 800, and the systems are so smart they do balanced fill flash out doors really well. Use it! (or an assistant and a reflector for 1/10000000000 the price...wings.gif )

    VI

    The only difference between the SB-600 and 800 are variations that even a professional photographer will seldom use.
    They for all intents and purposes are the same flash and are equally "smart".

    I've got that tut up. I just need to figure out how to get the video clip I made on the site. Don't think it will work for elements. But it's worth looking at anyway IMO.

    I'll link you up to it in a day or so when I'm completely done.

    -Jon
  • Options
    SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2007
    KMW wrote:
    I didn't realize how inexpensive this lens was and it's great for low light. Somebody else in this forum just bought one and it made me want to go out and get one for myself.
    Remember that you sacrifice DOF when you open up your aperture.
    KMW wrote:
    I am spending more money than I am making so far. Hopefully it will payoff in the long run.
    Welcome to the world of photography.
    NASA is rather fond of Ansel Adams and found out that on one specific day, all the environmental variables and blah blah blah would be exactly like the day Ansel took one of his famous photographs.
    Over 200 pro's showed up w/ all kinds of insanely expensive glass and bodies. Taking some ridiculous number of photographs like 20,000 shots. You know what? No one came close to making the image Ansel already did w/ his 'old' film camera.
    Moral:
    It's not the camera. It's the photographer that makes great shots. Don't fall into the trap that so many (including me at one time) fell into. the "if I just had that lens, I could get that perfect shot" syndrome.
    Don't get me wrong. If you have mass money and can get it. GO FOR IT! You are getting superior optics for the greter priceJust don't let that stop you from making great photos.

    -Jon
  • Options
    KMWKMW Registered Users Posts: 118 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2007
    Van Isle wrote:
    The previous poster covered the technical stuff, but I don't think he emphasized it enough: INTERACT AND MAKE IT FUN for the kids, what a difference. I just did my first studio/model shoot...wow, I have a ways to go before I can really draw out what I want from models and feel that interaction through the lens.

    The PP said it well:
    An interactive happy kid in an OK portrait will always make a better shot than a bored kid in a technically perfect shot.

    See if you can do some quick reading on "tricks" to play with kids and stuff. Should be fun.

    as for your flash, I have the SB 800, and the systems are so smart they do balanced fill flash out doors really well. Use it! (or an assistant and a reflector for 1/10000000000 the price...wings.gif )

    VI

    Thanks for your advice. These boys are a little older than what I'm used to. I've photographed more toddlers than children and I am used to interacting with the little ones, but 8 and 10 will be a challenge.

    For the fill flash, should I be using TTL-BL outdoors then?
    Nikon D80
    18-135mm 3.5-5.6
    50mm 1.4
    SB600
  • Options
    KMWKMW Registered Users Posts: 118 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2007
    SloYerRoll wrote:
    The only difference between the SB-600 and 800 are variations that even a professional photographer will seldom use.
    They for all intents and purposes are the same flash and are equally "smart".

    I've got that tut up. I just need to figure out how to get the video clip I made on the site. Don't think it will work for elements. But it's worth looking at anyway IMO.

    I'll link you up to it in a day or so when I'm completely done.

    -Jon

    Thanks...Please do let me know when the tutorial is available. I will try to figure out if it works in elements.
    Nikon D80
    18-135mm 3.5-5.6
    50mm 1.4
    SB600
  • Options
    KMWKMW Registered Users Posts: 118 Major grins
    edited August 20, 2007
    SloYerRoll wrote:
    Remember that you sacrifice DOF when you open up your aperture.


    Welcome to the world of photography.
    NASA is rather fond of Ansel Adams and found out that on one specific day, all the environmental variables and blah blah blah would be exactly like the day Ansel took one of his famous photographs.
    Over 200 pro's showed up w/ all kinds of insanely expensive glass and bodies. Taking some ridiculous number of photographs like 20,000 shots. You know what? No one came close to making the image Ansel already did w/ his 'old' film camera.
    Moral:
    It's not the camera. It's the photographer that makes great shots. Don't fall into the trap that so many (including me at one time) fell into. the "if I just had that lens, I could get that perfect shot" syndrome.
    Don't get me wrong. If you have mass money and can get it. GO FOR IT! You are getting superior optics for the greter priceJust don't let that stop you from making great photos.

    -Jon

    Too funny...I've already been thinking about the next lens I want to buy. I know I have all the basics I need to work with right now but I'm always thinking about what I need next. I will try to use what I have and work on my technique instead of spending more money.
    Nikon D80
    18-135mm 3.5-5.6
    50mm 1.4
    SB600
  • Options
    SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited August 22, 2007
    KMW wrote:
    Thanks...Please do let me know when the tutorial is available. I will try to figure out if it works in elements.

    Here's the link:
    http://jbritt.smugmug.com/gallery/3338994/1/186029466

    I'm rather put out that I put all this effort into making a video of the work I made only to find out the file size was way to big for SmugMug. So I compressed it and it looked horrid.

    So the tut is minus the video but you should still get how to do it.

    All the best,

    -Jon
  • Options
    KMWKMW Registered Users Posts: 118 Major grins
    edited August 22, 2007
    SloYerRoll wrote:
    Here's the link:
    http://jbritt.smugmug.com/gallery/3338994/1/186029466

    I'm rather put out that I put all this effort into making a video of the work I made only to find out the file size was way to big for SmugMug. So I compressed it and it looked horrid.

    So the tut is minus the video but you should still get how to do it.

    All the best,

    -Jon

    Thanks for the tutorial. I will try it out. Hopefully it works in Elements 5.
    Nikon D80
    18-135mm 3.5-5.6
    50mm 1.4
    SB600
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