Hobbist vs. Pro

indiegirl

After reading the replies in this thread, I am struck by how many folks consider themselves a hobbist photographer vs. a professional photographer. The definition must differ from person to person.

What's your definition of a hobbist? A pro?

Tentacion

According to the law....

If more than 50%+ of your income derives from your Photography then you are considered a PRO.

That is how I think of it..

LiquidAir

Tentacion wrote:

According to the law....

If more than 50%+ of your income derives from your Photography then you are considered a PRO.

That is how I think of it..

That sounds good. My personal definition is a little more generous: I'll consider calling myself a pro the year I make enough from phogography that I can justify buying a back up body.

Frog Lady

LiquidAir wrote:

That sounds good. My personal definition is a little more generous: I'll consider calling myself a pro the year I make enough from phogography that I can justify buying a back up body.

I maybe generalizing here, but I didn't think most people bought a back up body... don't most people typically up-grade and keep the old body as a back up? (so I just upped your needed income, you need to earn more to get the nicer camera just to have a back up )

Personally, I like the nice, grey zone - semi-pro (not that I'm even there yet...)

C.

LiquidAir

Frog Lady wrote:

I maybe generalizing here, but I didn't think most people bought a back up body... don't most people typically up-grade and keep the old body as a back up? (so I just upped your needed income, you need to earn more to get the nicer camera just to have a back up )

Personally, I like the nice, grey zone - semi-pro (not that I'm even there yet...)

C.

In that case, my backup is an EOS-3 film body. My 5D is serving my current needs just fine so I don't see myself upgrading anytime soon. If shooting was my living I'd probably pick up a used 1Ds mark II during the rush to upgrade and call the 5D as a backup, but right now I don't have any real need for the higher end body.

ShepsMom

Are you asking from a business point of view? If so, a pro probably would be someone who is making money by doing photography. I hobby, that just what it is, a hobby.
However, to me, if someone isn't a pro but produces a beautiful work, it would consider them a PRO at what he/she does, making money or not. I've seen some awful wedding shots, and i'm even surprised that those people charging so much money and calling themselves pros. I would feel guilty to show those pictures to anyone.
So, with that said, if you do what you love and do it good, then you're a pro!!

D.Rodgers

Talk about a thin line ,I own a web based photography business ,have yet to really push it will so in the new year.
Now a good 80%of my time encompasses photography either shooting reading(Learning)
or desktop processing.

I don't consider myself a pro and probably never will not because I don't think my dedication is worthy of the title but mainly because I think this area is more reserved for assignment shooters etc photojournalist .
I think if you are hired by someone or consignments where you make more then 75g a year then you are pro.

Websters definition:
a : of, relating to, or characteristic of a profession b : engaged in one of the learned professions c (1) : characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession (2) : exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, and generally businesslike manner in the workplace
a : participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs <a professional golfer> b : having a particular profession as a permanent career <a professional soldier> c : engaged in by persons receiving financial return <professional football>

indiegirl

I understand the need to move this thread to this forum, but I think it makes my question confusing since I'm speaking to those of us who answered the thread linked above to the LPS getting-to-know-you thread, which is made up of those of us who participate in the LPS contest.

I am not really asking the greater community. I was referencing the small number of people on that board because we shared a common interest in LPS and I found it weird that so many folks consider themselves hobbists.

Jesse

nipprdog

Tentacion wrote:

According to the law....

If more than 50%+ of your income derives from your Photography then you are considered a PRO

yep.

SaltFork

Hobbyist or Pro?

Jesse, I think your question is a good one. The folks that responded to the Nice-to-Meet-You thread are an incredibly diverse group with almost nothing in common..... except that most of them consider themselves hobbyists.

Here's my take: It all depends on which side of the transaction you are on.

We hobbyists think that PRO means you DEPEND on photography for your livelihood.

Our customers think that PRO means ANYONE that they are willing to pay for a photograph.... especially someone that they are willing to HIRE to take a photograph.

I've made about $3200 off my Smugmug website in the last 16 months. Ask me again after I've made another $10K or so....
Maybe I'll be comfortable with the PRO label then. Meanwhile, my customers are already using it......

ChatKat

And then there is the IRS Definition
If you want to write off your photography, the IRS defines it as a business if you intend to make a profit - period. If you intend to dabble and you earn (GROSS - before deductions) $600 or more you are required to file a Schedule C - Profit and Loss from a Business. Their definition of pro means you are intending to generate income - no other definition.

Now because you are profitable doesn't make you professional.

SaltFork wrote:

Hobbyist or Pro?

Jesse, I think your question is a good one. The folks that responded to the Nice-to-Meet-You thread are an incredibly diverse group with almost nothing in common..... except that most of them consider themselves hobbyists.

Here's my take: It all depends on which side of the transaction you are on.

We hobbyists think that PRO means you DEPEND on photography for your livelihood.

Our customers think that PRO means ANYONE that they are willing to pay for a photograph.... especially someone that they are willing to HIRE to take a photograph.

I've made about $3200 off my Smugmug website in the last 16 months. Ask me again after I've made another $10K or so....
Maybe I'll be comfortable with the PRO label then. Meanwhile, my customers are already using it......

sirsloop

I think you are entering the realm of pro when you start going on "shoots" for profit. I mean, you are showing up at an event with the intent to sell the photos. You would not be there if there wasn't some money to be made. If you are just a hobbyist you'd be showing up to play with your camera for fun. Legally speaking its 50% of your revenue from photography.

I see a lot of people with REALLY nice camera's at some of the events I'm shooting at. They are generally taking photos of their children riding. Most of them don't know how to use the camera like a pro, and are out having fun as a hobbyist.

BistiArt

'Em Thar Rules

indiegirl wrote:

What's your definition of a hobbist? A pro?

As noted elsewhere, I just finished volunteering as image placer for judges of New Mexico State Fair photo contest.

Asd I was preparing to enter, their rules clearly stated "If you have made money of an image, you are a Pro". Hence, you enter with a framed picture covered with glass.

If not "you are an Amateur aka Hobbyist". So you dry mount a smaller image and test you luck...

Shay Stephens

I moved the thread back here because it violates the MYOB guidlines:

This forum [mind your own business] is for talking about the business related aspects of photography.

Posts too far afield will be moved to an appropriate forum (e.g. pet image critiques, what is an ISO, my pictures are blurry, etc)

Flaming, debates about what the definition of pro is, overly rude comments, etc. will most likely be deleted without warning or explanation.

This is a place for positive discussion and help about the business side of photography.

And contextually, it is a continuation of a discussion in the C&C forum.

indiegirl

Shay Stephens wrote:

And contextually, it is a continuation of a discussion in the C&C forum.

Thanks, Shay, for seeing my POV.

Jesse

Nikolai

Here we go again...
I don't know how many times I've seen this question...
Some areas are kinda lucky: have you ever seen a hobbyist neurosurgeon? or hobbyist F-35 pilot? Not many, I think...

Now, some occupations have a large gray area, where an entry level person can start on a dime and gradually learn/grow up. Photography, and, surprisingly, software development, are some of those. Lot of people who've seen < html > tag or an if statement in javascript call themselves professional programmers, so do many of those who ended up having with 1Dx body and calling themselves photographers. As one of my friend says: "He who buys a flute owns a flute. He who buys a camera is a photographer". :-)

There are always two aspects in this.

First, the one Kathy (Chatkat) mentioned, is strictly legal: fom the IRS standpoint you gotta make profit. Meaning: if you count BOTH your expense$ AND your time, your return should be greater than that.

Second is more common-sense. A person can be often called a professional because s/he managed to stay in business for a considerably long period of time and in this way is carrying a good reputation (word of mouth being an example). Usually it implies certain amounf of a financial sucess from the point #1, but not always.

My personal view is a rather strict one - a pro is a person who lives off his/her activity. I do so by programming. I make some money off my photogrpahy, on a good year I'm even profitable, but it's not what brings bread & (a lot of) butter to the table. Hence I'm a pro developer but a hobbyist photographer.

HTH

davev

Nikolai wrote:

I don't know how many times I've seen this question...
Some areas are kinda lucky: have you ever seen a hobbyist neurosurgeon? or hobbyist F-35 pilot? Not many, I think...

HTH

I don't know Nik, the doctors are just practicing right?

I think you're a pro when you advertise yourself as one.
Just because one person buys a shot from you doesn't mean you're ready to open a business.

Me, although I have won a couple of prizes from contests, I have never sold a photo. Probably never will. So I get to keep my amateur status.:D

peterst6906

My definition of a professional is the same as many already listed. It's someone who makes their income through photography.

There is a difference between having a professional attitute or approach to photography and being a professional photographer.

I think many of the entries in the LPS show that most people here have a professional attitude to photography, but only the pro's are making money this way.

Being male, I like the golf analogy to this question. There are many amateur golfers who have a very professional approach to their game, but they are still amateurs even if their golf is as good as a pro's.

Regards,

Peter

z_28

OK - so I'm hobbist wedding photographer
Since tens of years

But IRS charge me anyway - is it make me a PRO cry
Or just loose cannon with canon

Gary Glass

I distinguish between "professional" and "shooter". A shooter is a damned good photographer. A professional photographer is somebody who is at least trying to make a living at photography. A professional may or may not be a shooter, and may or may not care to be. An amateur may or may not be a shooter, and may or may not care to be. I don't call myself a shooter, but I've known professional photographers that I didn't think were as talented as I am, but I couldn't do what they do in a million years.

banjon

sirsloop wrote:

I think you are entering the realm of pro when you start going on "shoots" for profit. I mean, you are showing up at an event with the intent to sell the photos. You would not be there if there wasn't some money to be made. If you are just a hobbyist you'd be showing up to play with your camera for fun. Legally speaking its 50% of your revenue from photography.

I see a lot of people with REALLY nice camera's at some of the events I'm shooting at. They are generally taking photos of their children riding. Most of them don't know how to use the camera like a pro, and are out having fun as a hobbyist.

Reminds me of last Christmas at the local photography store. I was looking at buying a stronger tripod and checking out polarizers. I overheard the salesclerk explaning all the features of this Nikon high end camera kit that was selling for $2200+ here. I was listening and was thinking maybe someday. After the clerk was done, the guy looked at him and said "Yeah, but how is the autofocus on this thing. My wife only wants thee best autofocus." My mouth dropped, I think the clerk went white, and replied "Oh Its one of the best". The guy responded "Fine, I'll take it".

All the guy wanted was a highend DSLR for autofocus. I felt like telling him, here my cheaper camera has great autofocus lets swap!


Rich

JGD

Legal?
Where does this more than 50% of your income idea come from? If you have sold any of your work on the open market you have achived professional status. Everything else is a matter of degree. I would think that being admitted to a juried art show or gallery would also qualify. Let's not make a pissing contest out of this enjoyable pursuit. Instead of aurguing over who is Pro or not, GO TAKE A PICTURE!

Legal? WHO CARES, probably some professional lawyer.

JBHotShots

Actually JMO, as I was 10 and 11 years old before I knew anything about, well anything, I was cutting grass and I'm sure that I made more than $600 in a summer. So that being said I know now and then I wasn't a professional landscaper. I know that's a bit far fetched, but it still the same idea with pictures.

Tentacion

JGD wrote:

Where does this more than 50% of your income idea come from? If you have sold any of your work on the open market you have achived professional status. Everything else is a matter of degree. I would think that being admitted to a juried art show or gallery would also qualify. Let's not make a pissing contest out of this enjoyable pursuit. Instead of aurguing over who is Pro or not, GO TAKE A PICTURE!

Legal? WHO CARES, probably some professional lawyer.

Not a Pissing Contest...just an enjoyable debate and not an argument......Might, I suggest you take the time to reread the comments...don't take it somewhere else...

Legal? WHO CARES, probably some professional lawyer.

I think the IRS would differ with you....."Schedule C"....

But I think I like Saltforks answer best....

Your a PRO cuz your clients pay you for your services, they define it as such...if they wanted snapshots they could do it themselves....

Now maybe a good question would be...What is your Level of Photography.

Beginner..(snapshot quality, just learning the ropes)
Intermediate...(Learned of Technical aspects)
Hobbyist..(Incorporates Tecs)
Advanced Hobbyist...(Incorporates Tecs, Lighting, Post Processing Work)
Advanced Pro...(Knows much, but doesn't have enough clientele)
Professional...(Name is out there, and has lots of clientele, thus makes LOTS of MOOLAH)

Smart Photographer a REAL PRO...."One who never STOPS learning even though she/he is a Professional, remembers that Photography is like Fashion, always changing, but sooner or later, the style goes back to trends from long ago... "

HoofClix

Once again, the doctor asks a question at the group session, and I was late to the gathering.... A couple of concepts about the above that I see as myth...

1. As far as the IRS is concerned, if you are in any business venture, if you can't show "intent to make a profit," then they will not allow you to continue to deduct business expenses in a venture. They will call it a "hobby" at that point, but they don't say you're a professional otherwise. This has no meaning here, only for the IRS in the effort to gather taxes.
2. Golf is a great starting point today when talking professional vs. amatuer, but let's face it, there are really no "amatuer" golfers out there who can stand up to a "professional" competition. There might be some who garnish attention at one tournament or another, but today they all get swallowed up by the pros...

In most arenas where the word professional comes into play, if someone takes money not only for the product but in the act of instructing others on the subject, then "amatuer" status is lost forever.

So there's the philosophical side of this debate, and it can have no end, but I'll pipe in here as well.. As regards all of the above, as I said in the 'Nice To Meet You.." thread, I certainly have to say that I'm a professional, but there is no way that I would claim to be complete. In the golf analogy, I couldn't say that I've even hit the tour in capability or qualification. I'm probably just at the local public range... So when do we get there.

Another idea of what a professional is, today, is that it is someone who makes a discipline their primary focus and who is then committed to the constant process of improvement that it takes to stay ahead of the pack, or even in the pack... That's what draws me to this forum, as I know that there are folks here who know what I need to learn next, and it's a real challenge to try to listen. Think of the concept of mentoring. There are folks in this forum, and even in the other arenas, not just LPS, who I am paying close attention to right now.

"Professional" to me also carries some ethical considerations, in photography especially in how we execute our art. I for one try to avoid photos of statues and architecture when I'm trying to go after a theme. I do that because those two things are especially the art of the sculptor or the architect, not my art to start with. I hold myself to that, and I would probably judge a contest with these biases, but I don't judge other individuals (I think....)..

So enough of my blah-blah-blah for now! Take it away, Dr. Indie!

Art Scott

When I first started out shooting for a .....ahem...ahem....profit I would be asked...."Are you a pro" (by prospective client).....I would answer no...semi pro.....then always had to explain the had a day job and was not making 50+% of my income from photos.......

This was exactly what I had read in several books on Photography and the Law....yes they were written by lawyers......then I happened to get to meet with an IRS Area manager from the KC area...he as the father in law of a lady that worked for me ( I was her lead)......I was shooting her daughters wedding and when introduced to this IRS manager I posed the question to him and was told "we don't care about titles only YOUR incoming money..............lol, then he gave me the 50+% thing I had already read in books that dated back as far as the late 1940's.........

Pro also has to do with how you present yourself....ie attitude towards self, clients and others.......

Within this very thread I have seen unprofessional behavior...but who really cares it is only a discussion thread....however most of us have links to our sites in our siggys and that unprofessionalism could easily cut down on business.......

k2butter

I would consider anyone who can make money off of photography a pro... I am a hobbyist, I do not make money doing this, nor do I intend to try!

HoofClix

Art Scott wrote:

...then he gave me the 50+% thing I had already read in books that dated back as far as the late 1940's.........

I'm very certain that the IRS doesn't care what percentage of my income is generated by photography, only that I properly report the income and don't unproperly deduct expenses. They also don't care what that percentage is before they hit me with "Self-Employment" tax. As for those 1940's books that defined this, I suppose that I missed those ones..

Art Scott wrote:

....however most of us have links to our sites in our siggys and that unprofessionalism could easily cut down on business.......

Art brings up the facet of "professionalism" that has to do with how professionals deal in the market place, both in the way they treat eachother and the way they go after new business. I, of course, do have my website in my signature, but let's be realistic, that this is a forum of photographers looking to get better at photography. I see my link as nothing more than providing others in this forum the same as they provide me, a way to easliy go look at others' work so that I can see and learn. There is nothing on my site that I even fractionally expect anyone to go purchase, and it is hightly unlikely that anyone who would make a decision to hire me would be passing through this forum. I just can't see that a web link in this forum is in any way unprofessional.

Gary Glass

Beginner..(snapshot quality, just learning the ropes)
Intermediate...(Learned of Technical aspects)
Hobbyist..(Incorporates Tecs)
Advanced Hobbyist...(Incorporates Tecs, Lighting, Post Processing Work)
Advanced Pro...(Knows much, but doesn't have enough clientele)
Professional...(Name is out there, and has lots of clientele, thus makes LOTS of MOOLAH)

I don't see these options as lying along a single line. As I remarked upthread, a photographer who never makes any money on her work might be far more skilled with her craft than a photographer who makes good money every day. The distinction between amateur and pro is one vector. The distinction between unskillful and brilliant is another. Each of us lies somewhere on that grid.