Thanks, Harry and Angelo - you guys just made my day !
Angelo should get most of the credit. He started it with his prejudiced response.
Hey, Harry - would you have a photo of the "egret's revenge?":D
That I do but this is a PG site. The picture would give grown men nightmares. :yikes
Thanks for your comments and Good luck in the contest down there!
Thanks Dane but you never know with these contests. Those damned judges never pick the best pictures. Last year I submitted 5 pictures and 3 of them won. Of course the incompetent judges picked the 3 I liked the least and ignored my 2 favorite shots.
Harry http://behret.smugmug.com/NANPA member How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
Surprised me on that one, Angelo, for which I thank you. It seems to be time for me to be shedding the belief that the way I personally see things actually means anything in the larger context. What's more important is to recognize, accept, and even appreciate that we see things differently.
Please correct me if I an wrong, but from the postings from some of the judges recently, it sounds like there isn't really a "method, and that each judge is free to make up their own.
exactly, and everyone knows that coming into the competition.
So what I'm getting around to saying in my long-winded way is that if you're concentrating on winning the contest or how it is judged or whatever, then in my opinion, for whatever it's work, you're not getting out of the experience the best value it has to offer, which is the challenge to stretch and grow as an artist, to think creatively about a subject not of your choosing. Doing so gives us a chance to exercise our critical faculties, to learn the kind of distancing from and cold-blooded critical judgment of our own work which is so essential to developing artistic ability.
I agree, Gary. I've been strecthed plenty as a result of participating, and for that, I heartily recommend it. Now that I've got some stuff off my chest and flapping in the breeze, I'm going to focus on having fun with my creativity, and let the rest roll off, to the best of my ability, at least. I don't like the way it is, but I can live with it, have some fun and learn in the process.
So far, most respondants are accepting of the way it's going, and many prefer it that way. So be it! I'm glad I open my mouth and started this thread, because I've learned some things about myself, and have greater understanding of how differently we perceive things. It hasn't altered my tastes one bit, but it's given me a better appreciation for the tastes of others, and that is worth a lot to me.
So be it! I'm glad I open my mouth and started this thread, because I've learned some things about myself, and have greater understanding of how differently we perceive things. It hasn't altered my tastes one bit, but it's given me a better appreciation for the tastes of others, and that is worth a lot to me.
Blessings,
Dane
Oooo! I like that! You see things a little differently yet at the same time value your own opinion. Freeeeeeeedoooooommmmm! :ivar
"Just because no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist."
OK, I'll be honest - Gary, I don't really have time to read this whole thread, but I get the gist you're a little unhappy, but also being a pretty good sport based on many good comments from our other LPS faithful. So good onya for being critical, but also for not being a baby (hate to say it, but its happened too many times before).
I will just say one thing as the offiical mop-pusher around here: the challenges before LPS were fully audience/vote oriented and I think everyone will agree that they don't hold a candle to LPS! The quality of entries, number of participants, everything has improved since Shay invented LPS.
There's no way to have a contest of any sort and make everyone happy. I have said this in other threads, but I still think that the LPS winners gallery is hands down one of the best on Smugmug. That says something about this contest.
Entries should not be displayed for public viewing until contest is closed.
But then I'd have to look at other forums since this one wouldn't have much activity, and I'm a one-forum woman.
No system is perfect and there are pros and cons to everything. And since I'm striving to be a pro, and giving up being a con, I'll be sticking around.:D
There's no way to have a contest of any sort and make everyone happy. I have said this in other threads, but I still think that the LPS winners gallery is hands down one of the best on Smugmug. That says something about this contest.
Actually, I am usually more impressed by the entry threads than I am by the winners galleries. What I have found is that the irregularities in the judging mean I have to enter my best shot rather than playing to the judges because I never know what the judges are going to do. The feeling I get is that most of the regulars here take the same approach and it shows. The people playing this game have been pushing the standards for entries up each round. Compare the LPS#1 entry thread to the LPS#10 entry thread and see what I mean.
I'd have to say I understand both sides to the discussion. On one hand, it's great to participate because of the portfolio that is essentially being built and the learning experience from reading all the threads. But on the other hand, now there's significantly more $$$ involved which tends to make people more serious about it - hence this topic coming up over and over.
The only formula change that I can see that increased the quality of entries is the prize amount. I personally don't think it's the inconsistent judging that causes the better entries; I think it's the stakes. Generally, people will work harder to make more money - $40 smugmug credit (old prize) compared to a $1500 lens (just part of the new prize). From a personal logical point of view, I can justify (to my wife) spending a whole bunch of time (which should produce a better photo - doesn't mean it actually does) on a shot that might get us $1500 than I can for $40.
The only formula change that I can see that increased the quality of entries is the prize amount. I personally don't think it's the inconsistent judging that causes the better entries; I think it's the stakes. Generally, people will work harder to make more money - $40 smugmug credit (old prize) compared to a $1500 lens (just part of the new prize). From a personal logical point of view, I can justify (to my wife) spending a whole bunch of time (which should produce a better photo - doesn't mean it actually does) on a shot that might get us $1500 than I can for $40.
When I was speaking about the inconsistancy of judging, I didn't intend to compare against the old Challenges which had the same property. Rather, I was comparing to other contests which have a fixed pool of "professional" judges which can lead to a rather stale, inbred style of entry. Overall, the LPS judging leans toward the cartoonish over the subtle, but that is a common disease of all competitions that rely on any form popular vote. However, in any particular round it is possible that the judges will prefer images with some depth which, I find, keeps me on my toes.
There are prizes to be sure, but who is really paying attention to those as the reason they keep coming back every two weeks? I think not. I think there's a true artistic challenge here. We first want to win just because, second because ot the prizes. We've all gotten better every step of the way. Now it's a matter of keeping up, in most cases anwyay.
Overall, the LPS judging leans toward the cartoonish over the subtle, but that is a common disease of all competitions that rely on any form popular vote. However, in any particular round it is possible that the judges will prefer images with some depth which, I find, keeps me on my toes.
There are prizes to be sure, but who is really paying attention to those as the reason they keep coming back every two weeks? I think not. I think there's a true artistic challenge here. We first want to win just because, second because ot the prizes. We've all gotten better every step of the way. Now it's a matter of keeping up, in most cases anwyay.
Personally I have to say I hadn't thought about the prizes, in fact I have no idea what they are and I agree, it's the artistic challenge that interested me.
Is LPS perfect, of course not, but it's a pretty exciting formula that's pushing many participants to punch above their weight and is ultimately producing some wonderful work.
There are a number of aspects that I'm not comfortable with so I've pulled back and am enjoying watching everything unfold from the sidelines.
There are prizes to be sure, but who is really paying attention to those as the reason they keep coming back every two weeks? I think not. I think there's a true artistic challenge here. We first want to win just because, second because ot the prizes. We've all gotten better every step of the way. Now it's a matter of keeping up, in most cases anwyay.
Yes, but I do agree with Nelsonstuff that it does help to make it more justifiable to significant others with the higher stakes. At the beginning it made me think that it would (and it did) bring in higher quality and stiffer competition because of the higher stakes.
There are prizes to be sure, but who is really paying attention to those as the reason they keep coming back every two weeks? I think not. I think there's a true artistic challenge here. We first want to win just because, second because ot the prizes. We've all gotten better every step of the way. Now it's a matter of keeping up, in most cases anwyay.
I think there are more people than you think paying attention to the prizes. Why have prizes at all then? Why not just have the same qualifying rounds, same semi-finals but no prizes? I think the idea was to bring more people in. No better way to do that than to dangle the almighty dollar in front of them. I participated in the old challenges as soon as I found out about them and I'd still participate without prizes now (cause I know I suck and I ain't gunna win jack squat anyway), I'm just trying to explain why there might be higher frustrations with the current system. I agree there's an artistic challenge. But for a lot of people, since they are going to participate in an artistic challenge anyway, they might as well find the ones that have cash prizes.
Unless there was another reason why Shay opted for the higher prizes?
Yes, but I do agree with Nelsonstuff that it does help to make it more justifiable to significant others with the higher stakes.
Which sounds better:
1) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $40"
2) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $25,000"
Which sounds better:
1) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $40"
2) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $25,000"
It becomes very simple after that.
Maybe for you! My wife would say, "I don't care how much the prize is, do it AFTER you get them to bed....":smack
Anyway, my kids are teenagers, so I don't have to worry until much later, and I'm going to do it at 5AM Sunday morning anyway!
Which sounds better:
1) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $40"
2) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $25,000"
It becomes very simple after that.
I submitted 2 pictures in 6 months to the old challenge and got $40 for my effort. I have submitted 12 pictures in 6 months for the new format and gotten nothing for it. We are both pretty realistic about the prizes and don't expect to win anything in LPS. I get to shoot at sunset about once in every 2-3 weeks. My wife would give me that whether there were any prizes on the line or not.
Personally I have to say I hadn't thought about the prizes, in fact I have no idea what they are and I agree, it's the artistic challenge that interested me.
Is LPS perfect, of course not, but it's a pretty exciting formula that's pushing many participants to punch above their weight and is ultimately producing some wonderful work.
There are a number of aspects that I'm not comfortable with so I've pulled back and am enjoying watching everything unfold from the sidelines.
Charlie
The possibility (albiet remote) of winning some cash for a new L lens is definitely a lure, and it's come up in conversations with my wife as well, but I must confess I'd be here anyway. I now have several shots I would never have taken otherwise, been humbled, and learned a lot on many levels.
So I'm gonna stick around. I'm kind of sorry you've pulled back, Charlie, but it sounds like you're happy where you are for now.
OK, I'll be honest - Gary, I don't really have time to read this whole thread, but I get the gist you're a little unhappy, but also being a pretty good sport based on many good comments from our other LPS faithful. So good onya for being critical, but also for not being a baby (hate to say it, but its happened too many times before).
Not Gary Glass. This thread was started by DrDane. I'm not unhappy or being critical. I think as contests go this one is exceptionally well done.
Thanks to all for the kind comments...
of course, personally i was surprised my entry did not do better, and was more surprised to find that one judge who dropped out had it at #5 while apparently none of the others thought it worthy at all.
I'm not in favor of changing anything, but I do suspect there was little appreciation (at least in this round) of the difficulty of such a shot (as Harry and many others in the wildlife forum will attest, even though Harry is retired and has obviously chosen to spend 100% of his time fondling his Nikon) or the time required to get the right light and the subject with a fish in the mouth. Not to mention that it was westchester county new york and not florida, where all birds are tame.
I suspect that I simply hit a group of judges who aren't wildlife shooters and judged from that perspective. But so be it. At least Harry got aroused.
of course, personally i was surprised my entry did not do better, and was more surprised to find that one judge who dropped out had it at #5 while apparently none of the others thought it worthy at all.
I'm not in favor of changing anything, but I do suspect there was little appreciation (at least in this round) of the difficulty of such a shot (as Harry and many others in the wildlife forum will attest, even though Harry is retired and has obviously chosen to spend 100% of his time fondling his Nikon) or the time required to get the right light and the subject with a fish in the mouth. Not to mention that it was westchester county new york and not florida, where all birds are tame.
I suspect that I simply hit a group of judges who aren't wildlife shooters and judged from that perspective. But so be it. At least Harry got aroused.
regards to all...Keith
\
I must say, Keith, that you're taking it far better than I did! I'm new to the contest thing and in my altruistic naivete,' was actually suffering under the delusion that contests were fair! And furthermore, that people would agree with me because it was so obvious through my own eyes! rofl
I loved your shot, BTW! Betcha can't do that with two of 'em in tandem!
. Not to mention that it was westchester county new york and not florida, where all birds are tame.
I'm in Florida, and I beg to differ, the Birds are NOT tame here..lol
You're only as good as your next photo....
One day, I started writing, not knowing that I had chained myself for life to a noble but merciless master. When God hands you a gift, he also hands you a whip; and the whip is intended solely for self-flagellation...I'm here alone in my dark madness, all by myself with my deck of cards --- and, of course, the whip God gave me." Truman Capote
Not to mention that it was westchester county new york and not florida, where all birds are tame.
I understand your frustration with the results - I was shocked your picture didn't get any "official" votes. But I don't understand your comment. I have never attempted to shoot wildlife in New York, but I do frequently in Florida and I can assure you the notion that all birds in any given state are "tame" is every bit as asinine as it sounds.
Sorry you missed my tongue in cheek comment...
Pat...
over on the wildlife forum, we are constantly giving harry a hard time because it seems so easy for him to get great shots. -NEvertheless, I can attest that a gbh in NY won't stand still unless you really sneak up on it or have a really, really long lens, while in Florida they often pose only 20 feet away. At least in my limited experience....but tame - i would say not!
I understand your frustration with the results - I was shocked your picture didn't get any "official" votes. But I don't understand your comment. I have never attempted to shoot wildlife in New York, but I do frequently in Florida and I can assure you the notion that all birds in any given state are "tame" is every bit as asinine as it sounds.
I'm glad the comment was actually tongue and cheek and I'm sorry I missed that fact. I guess you just hit a bit of a nerve with me! My apologies again for overreacting.
Birds in FL are very friendly, i have sandhills feeding of my bird feeder, right in my back yard. I can take shots all i want and they wont mind. Ok, i'm outtie now.....
Comments
Angelo should get most of the credit. He started it with his prejudiced response.
That I do but this is a PG site. The picture would give grown men nightmares. :yikes
Thanks Dane but you never know with these contests. Those damned judges never pick the best pictures.
http://behret.smugmug.com/ NANPA member
How many photographers does it take to change a light bulb? 50. One to change the bulb, and forty-nine to say, "I could have done that better!"
exactly, and everyone knows that coming into the competition.
Moderator of: Location, Location, Location , Mind Your Own Business & Other Cool Shots
Welcome to the "party!"
I agree, Gary. I've been strecthed plenty as a result of participating, and for that, I heartily recommend it. Now that I've got some stuff off my chest and flapping in the breeze, I'm going to focus on having fun with my creativity, and let the rest roll off, to the best of my ability, at least. I don't like the way it is, but I can live with it, have some fun and learn in the process.
So far, most respondants are accepting of the way it's going, and many prefer it that way. So be it! I'm glad I open my mouth and started this thread, because I've learned some things about myself, and have greater understanding of how differently we perceive things. It hasn't altered my tastes one bit, but it's given me a better appreciation for the tastes of others, and that is worth a lot to me.
Blessings,
Dane
Celebrating the essence of Nature, the Human Spirit, and the Divine Presence in all
http://www.drdane.smugmug.com or:
http://www.inner-light-images.com
Oooo! I like that! You see things a little differently yet at the same time value your own opinion. Freeeeeeeedoooooommmmm! :ivar
www.feliciabphotography.com
OK, I'll be honest - Gary, I don't really have time to read this whole thread, but I get the gist you're a little unhappy, but also being a pretty good sport based on many good comments from our other LPS faithful. So good onya for being critical, but also for not being a baby (hate to say it, but its happened too many times before).
I will just say one thing as the offiical mop-pusher around here: the challenges before LPS were fully audience/vote oriented and I think everyone will agree that they don't hold a candle to LPS! The quality of entries, number of participants, everything has improved since Shay invented LPS.
There's no way to have a contest of any sort and make everyone happy. I have said this in other threads, but I still think that the LPS winners gallery is hands down one of the best on Smugmug. That says something about this contest.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
But then I'd have to look at other forums since this one wouldn't have much activity, and I'm a one-forum woman.
No system is perfect and there are pros and cons to everything. And since I'm striving to be a pro, and giving up being a con, I'll be sticking around.:D
www.tessa-hd.smugmug.com
www.printandportfolio.com
This summer's wilderness photography project: www.tessa-hd.smugmug.com/gallery/3172341
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
Actually, I am usually more impressed by the entry threads than I am by the winners galleries. What I have found is that the irregularities in the judging mean I have to enter my best shot rather than playing to the judges because I never know what the judges are going to do. The feeling I get is that most of the regulars here take the same approach and it shows. The people playing this game have been pushing the standards for entries up each round. Compare the LPS#1 entry thread to the LPS#10 entry thread and see what I mean.
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
The only formula change that I can see that increased the quality of entries is the prize amount. I personally don't think it's the inconsistent judging that causes the better entries; I think it's the stakes. Generally, people will work harder to make more money - $40 smugmug credit (old prize) compared to a $1500 lens (just part of the new prize). From a personal logical point of view, I can justify (to my wife) spending a whole bunch of time (which should produce a better photo - doesn't mean it actually does) on a shot that might get us $1500 than I can for $40.
When I was speaking about the inconsistancy of judging, I didn't intend to compare against the old Challenges which had the same property. Rather, I was comparing to other contests which have a fixed pool of "professional" judges which can lead to a rather stale, inbred style of entry. Overall, the LPS judging leans toward the cartoonish over the subtle, but that is a common disease of all competitions that rely on any form popular vote. However, in any particular round it is possible that the judges will prefer images with some depth which, I find, keeps me on my toes.
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
Personally I have to say I hadn't thought about the prizes, in fact I have no idea what they are and I agree, it's the artistic challenge that interested me.
Is LPS perfect, of course not, but it's a pretty exciting formula that's pushing many participants to punch above their weight and is ultimately producing some wonderful work.
There are a number of aspects that I'm not comfortable with so I've pulled back and am enjoying watching everything unfold from the sidelines.
Charlie
Yes, but I do agree with Nelsonstuff that it does help to make it more justifiable to significant others with the higher stakes. At the beginning it made me think that it would (and it did) bring in higher quality and stiffer competition because of the higher stakes.
I think there are more people than you think paying attention to the prizes. Why have prizes at all then? Why not just have the same qualifying rounds, same semi-finals but no prizes? I think the idea was to bring more people in. No better way to do that than to dangle the almighty dollar in front of them. I participated in the old challenges as soon as I found out about them and I'd still participate without prizes now (cause I know I suck and I ain't gunna win jack squat anyway), I'm just trying to explain why there might be higher frustrations with the current system. I agree there's an artistic challenge. But for a lot of people, since they are going to participate in an artistic challenge anyway, they might as well find the ones that have cash prizes.
Unless there was another reason why Shay opted for the higher prizes?
Which sounds better:
1) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $40"
2) "I know I need to help get the kids to bed, but honey, I might win $25,000"
It becomes very simple after that.
Maybe for you! My wife would say, "I don't care how much the prize is, do it AFTER you get them to bed....":smack
Anyway, my kids are teenagers, so I don't have to worry until much later, and I'm going to do it at 5AM Sunday morning anyway!
www.HoofClix.com / Personal Facebook / Facebook Page
and I do believe its true.. that there are roads left in both of our shoes..
I submitted 2 pictures in 6 months to the old challenge and got $40 for my effort. I have submitted 12 pictures in 6 months for the new format and gotten nothing for it. We are both pretty realistic about the prizes and don't expect to win anything in LPS. I get to shoot at sunset about once in every 2-3 weeks. My wife would give me that whether there were any prizes on the line or not.
The possibility (albiet remote) of winning some cash for a new L lens is definitely a lure, and it's come up in conversations with my wife as well, but I must confess I'd be here anyway. I now have several shots I would never have taken otherwise, been humbled, and learned a lot on many levels.
So I'm gonna stick around. I'm kind of sorry you've pulled back, Charlie, but it sounds like you're happy where you are for now.
Celebrating the essence of Nature, the Human Spirit, and the Divine Presence in all
http://www.drdane.smugmug.com or:
http://www.inner-light-images.com
Not Gary Glass. This thread was started by DrDane. I'm not unhappy or being critical. I think as contests go this one is exceptionally well done.
ShutterGlass.com
OnlyBegotten.com
moderator of: The Flea Market [ guidelines ]
of course, personally i was surprised my entry did not do better, and was more surprised to find that one judge who dropped out had it at #5 while apparently none of the others thought it worthy at all.
I'm not in favor of changing anything, but I do suspect there was little appreciation (at least in this round) of the difficulty of such a shot (as Harry and many others in the wildlife forum will attest, even though Harry is retired and has obviously chosen to spend 100% of his time fondling his Nikon) or the time required to get the right light and the subject with a fish in the mouth. Not to mention that it was westchester county new york and not florida, where all birds are tame.
I suspect that I simply hit a group of judges who aren't wildlife shooters and judged from that perspective. But so be it. At least Harry got aroused.
regards to all...Keith
I must say, Keith, that you're taking it far better than I did! I'm new to the contest thing and in my altruistic naivete,' was actually suffering under the delusion that contests were fair!
I loved your shot, BTW!
Celebrating the essence of Nature, the Human Spirit, and the Divine Presence in all
http://www.drdane.smugmug.com or:
http://www.inner-light-images.com
I'm in Florida, and I beg to differ, the Birds are NOT tame here..lol
I understand your frustration with the results - I was shocked your picture didn't get any "official" votes. But I don't understand your comment. I have never attempted to shoot wildlife in New York, but I do frequently in Florida and I can assure you the notion that all birds in any given state are "tame" is every bit as asinine as it sounds.
Pat...
over on the wildlife forum, we are constantly giving harry a hard time because it seems so easy for him to get great shots. -NEvertheless, I can attest that a gbh in NY won't stand still unless you really sneak up on it or have a really, really long lens, while in Florida they often pose only 20 feet away. At least in my limited experience....but tame - i would say not!
Regards...Keith
www.intruecolors.com
Nikon D700 x2/D300
Nikon 70-200 2.8/50 1.8/85 1.8/14.24 2.8