Blowing out myshots in Post but my workflow hasent' changed a bit

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  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    While the difference isn't as dramatic (which kind of blows me away).
    You can still see a difference.

    I have not altered these images in anyway shape or form since I have sent them to you besides opening and closing them.

    Below are the images tiled vertically in PS:
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    Your display profile might be iffy, but the two should look identically off. In Photoshop they should appear identical, they do on this end so I suspect you're doing something but what I don't know. Do you have the policies in your Photohsop color settings set to preserve with all warning check boxes on?

    Do you have a 2nd machine you can inspect these on?
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    Oh, see where on your copy of the doc's it says Efficiency? Toggle that option to Color Space. What does it say?
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    arodney wrote:
    Oh, see where on your copy of the doc's it says Efficiency? Toggle that option to Color Space. What does it say?
    I toggled from efficenct to Document Profile.
    Both files read "ProPhoto RGB (8bpc)"

    My PSD also has a copyright symbol in fromt of it and the jpeg doesn't. But I'd bet that has nothing to do w/ this. At this point I'm leaning on the side of overinformation vs. not enough.
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    arodney wrote:
    Do you have a 2nd machine you can inspect these on?
    I have a few other machines. None w/ PS on them though except my primary machine.
    arodney wrote:
    Do you have the policies in your Photohsop color settings set to preserve with all warning check boxes on?
    Hopefully this screen grab below of my PS color settings will tell you everything you need to know. And possibly reveal the problem here.
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    With these settings, you COULD be converting sRGB images (or anything other than ProPhoto RGB) into that space if you click OK on the Convert on open option. You might want to change this to preserve and recheck those images again.
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    SloYerRoll wrote:
    I toggled from efficenct to Document Profile.
    Both files read "ProPhoto RGB (8bpc)"

    And when you run the info palette at say a 5x5 sampling, both files are the same color numbers or different (they have to be different).
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    arodney wrote:
    With these settings, you COULD be converting sRGB images (or anything other than ProPhoto RGB) into that space if you click OK on the Convert on open option. You might want to change this to preserve and recheck those images again.
    Well it definately made a difference!
    The jpeg I saved (after changing my color settings to preserve) almost perfectly matched the original! But it's still in the same color space (ProPhoto RGB 8).

    What am I missing here? Why would the images look different at the end of the day when they all share the same color profile?

    Thanks again for your time and help Andrew.

    -Jon
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    My color settings now look like:
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    NOTE: I'm tried to save my old shots that went through this ordeal by opening the .psd file and just saving as jpeg again.
    I'm still getting the same #$*^# results as before now.
    Screen cap below.

    I know you have me on the path to goodness Andrew. There's jsut something missing that I don't have yet.
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    Are you using a hardware/software solution for profiling your display and if so, what product?
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    GretagMacbeth'sEye-One Display. I keep my 1st monitor profiled. Don't bother w/ the second since it just holds my palettes n stuff. I understand this isn't the best application out there. But I used to be surrounded w/ color geeks. I know I don't need my shots to be that gnats a$$. I just need it to be nice and close. That's what is making this so damn frustrating. I just want reliable results.

    I don't really understand how this makes a difference though.
    Even if my monitor wasn't color calibrated. The overall brightnes of the saved jpeg is completely different than the original. I can validate this fact by looking at both images in PS on either my calibrated or uncalibrated display and easily see the same difference.

    I'll gladly go through my entire workflow from ingestion to output if it helps you determine the root of this.

    -Jon
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    I ask because someone with a similar sounding with Bridge reported the issue was caused by the display profile but made with a different package.

    You might want to check the preferences in i1 Match, try maybe a LUT (large) profile, reprofile the display. If this disconnect in previews from someone else was due to a display profile, it might be a big showing up for some reason for you.
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 4, 2007
    THere has got to be something major that I'm missing here.
    I just took a walk and was shooting random things in jpeg.

    I came back and saw a few keepers (then of course regret using jpeg) and I converted them to .tif using image processor in PS3.
    Below is the results.....
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 5, 2007
    You're complicated things by introducing Image Processor (unless you've been doing this from square one and I don't recall seeing that). Is that the case?

    It would also be useful if you could test this (using the simplest and direct process say DNG to TIFF and JPEG using Camera Raw) on another machine.

    With your DNG, I can't duplicate the issues. Its either user error or something on that machine. Pretty difficult to diagnose over the net!
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 5, 2007
    I haven't been using image processor except this one last time to see if the results would be duplicated or not.

    I'm going to start from scratch w/ my workflow (reset all to default) and rebuild it step by step to see if I can get back to the path of goodness.

    I'm sure this is just one setting that's set in the wrong way that's causing this digital nightmare!

    Thanks for your time and help Andrew. You have done allot by letting me know that the settings I know about are correct.

    I've read a few of your articles already including the very nicely written one one on bit depth dabate. Thanks for spending the time w/ (relatively speaking) a color noob and helping out.

    All the best.

    -Jon
  • CatOneCatOne Registered Users Posts: 957 Major grins
    edited September 5, 2007
    SloYerRoll wrote:
    Picture says everything.

    All I do w/ my shots is crop and a basic curves adjustment.
    I cosider basic curves adjustment to be:
    color adjustment and setting the black and white point in the shot.
    On this specific all I did was:
    Bring up curves and alt click my input sliders towards the center of the histogram until clipping shows then I back off a step (unless it's useless data then I continue to taste...

    What gives?
    On my dng the shot looks perfectly exposed then I save as jpeg (using save for web & devices)for others to view and it ends up looking blown out. The histogram says it's spot on though. :splat

    The thing is, the histogram does *NOT* say it's "spot on." Your histogram for the adjusted photo says you have a lot of "pure white" in it. Given the original photo doesn't have any whites in it, your adjustment blew things out. There isn't such a thing as a "right" histogram for a photo... a histogram rather reflects what you've done. And you've over-exposed things... "all the way to the right and then back off the clipping" makes sense in a photo where you DO have pure whites, but you don't.

    It's a processing problem, not a color-space problem... and you can adjust your processing to account for this. The histogram tells you exactly what you're seeing, and that's an over-exposed photo after your adjustments.
  • arodneyarodney Registered Users Posts: 2,005 Major grins
    edited September 5, 2007
    CatOne wrote:
    It's a processing problem, not a color-space problem... and you can adjust your processing to account for this.

    No, the problem is, he has two files that are supposed to be identical but don't appear to be visually. At least based on his description. I can't replicate this behavior and I'm glad as there shouldn’t be a mismatch between two such images. IF he adjusts the image and ends up with two variations, the problem isn’t solved.
    Andrew Rodney
    Author "Color Management for Photographers"
    http://www.digitaldog.net/
  • SloYerRollSloYerRoll Registered Users Posts: 2,788 Major grins
    edited September 5, 2007
    CatOne wrote:
    "all the way to the right and then back off the clipping" makes sense in a photo where you DO have pure whites, but you don't.
    That's a very valid point in regards to workflow. But Andrew is correct. This is not a workflow problem since I Make all my edits and save the native .dng then save a jpeg w/o making ANY alterations to the image. The resulting two files have completely different brightnesses though.

    Thanks for your input though.

    It's time to put this :deadhorse to sleep once and for all
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