Calibration; is what I see what I'll get?
drcarl
Registered Users Posts: 104 Major grins
Greetings SM-ers!
I hesitate to post because I am so swamped that I'm not sure I'll have the time for proper replies...still...I post.
I just joned SM with a Pro account. I've read much of what's here on calibration. I've ordered the test print for soft proofing. I'll save-up for calibration hardware and get something to hang on my screen...still, here I am and people want prints...even if it IS before I am 'ready.' -lol-
I've installed the EZ Prints icc profile and allow it to be imbedded into the images I open in Photoshop. Then, with a "proof delay" order to be shipped on the 3rd (whether I finish PP-ing or not), I made changes so that things look ~just right~ to me, at my desk, in my lighting conditions, in the EZ prints workspace, in Photoshop.
Next, I uploaded to a gallery and asked Andy to comment. He did and is being helpful. He suggested I post here as well.
Thing is, after I tweak 'em in Photoshop with what I thought was a very light touch, some of them look way over-saturated. Maybe I just have too heavy a hand with the contrast adjustments.
Although my first small print order is for my sister (so it's not really critical), everything I am learning is with an eye toward knowing that how I tweak an image is how it will be printed.
So....here I am with a link to my "Gallery for analysis" inviting your suggestions, experience and anything else you care to mention.
There are SO many areas to adjust. I wish there was a list ~from beginning to end~ of what to check, yet I understand that there are so many variables.
Does Windows XP have some kind of (was it Gamma?) setting?
Does Photoshop have eome kind of workspace setting I don't know about besides using the EZ Prints profile?
Will my images, as tweaked look good or like total crap?
Why do they look OK in Photoshop, and over-saturated once I upload them and view them in a Gallery?
Sorry if I don't reply in a timely manner.
PS - While learning how to navigate this site, I have put some other real junk up on SM; just mentioning that my ~presence~ here is by no means tweaked....'under construction' and all that...
Here's a link to the gallery
http://drcarl.smugmug.com/gallery/3388601#189375639
Thank you all for all you do,
Dr Carl
Edited: there is now Gallery II for my most recent attempts
http://drcarl.smugmug.com/gallery/3399434/1/190102451#190102183
I hesitate to post because I am so swamped that I'm not sure I'll have the time for proper replies...still...I post.
I just joned SM with a Pro account. I've read much of what's here on calibration. I've ordered the test print for soft proofing. I'll save-up for calibration hardware and get something to hang on my screen...still, here I am and people want prints...even if it IS before I am 'ready.' -lol-
I've installed the EZ Prints icc profile and allow it to be imbedded into the images I open in Photoshop. Then, with a "proof delay" order to be shipped on the 3rd (whether I finish PP-ing or not), I made changes so that things look ~just right~ to me, at my desk, in my lighting conditions, in the EZ prints workspace, in Photoshop.
Next, I uploaded to a gallery and asked Andy to comment. He did and is being helpful. He suggested I post here as well.
Thing is, after I tweak 'em in Photoshop with what I thought was a very light touch, some of them look way over-saturated. Maybe I just have too heavy a hand with the contrast adjustments.
Although my first small print order is for my sister (so it's not really critical), everything I am learning is with an eye toward knowing that how I tweak an image is how it will be printed.
So....here I am with a link to my "Gallery for analysis" inviting your suggestions, experience and anything else you care to mention.
There are SO many areas to adjust. I wish there was a list ~from beginning to end~ of what to check, yet I understand that there are so many variables.
Does Windows XP have some kind of (was it Gamma?) setting?
Does Photoshop have eome kind of workspace setting I don't know about besides using the EZ Prints profile?
Will my images, as tweaked look good or like total crap?
Why do they look OK in Photoshop, and over-saturated once I upload them and view them in a Gallery?
Sorry if I don't reply in a timely manner.
PS - While learning how to navigate this site, I have put some other real junk up on SM; just mentioning that my ~presence~ here is by no means tweaked....'under construction' and all that...
Here's a link to the gallery
http://drcarl.smugmug.com/gallery/3388601#189375639
Thank you all for all you do,
Dr Carl
Edited: there is now Gallery II for my most recent attempts
http://drcarl.smugmug.com/gallery/3399434/1/190102451#190102183
0
Comments
The icc profile is only used to evaluate how the prints should appear on YOUR monitor.
You do not want to use the EZ Prints profile to tag files that are being uploaded to Smugmug.
The files you upload to SMugmug need to be tagged with the sRGB profile ONLY, as are many of the images in your gallery. If the images look good on a properly calibrated monitor ( like mine ) then they will be fine when printed by smugmug - and you should be able to see that by soft proofing the images with the EZ Prints profile on your monitor. That is the sole purpose for the EZ Prints profile. The files that are uploaded MUST be sRGB only.
Moderator of the Technique Forum and Finishing School on Dgrin
I can see someone saying "just send us sRGB" and hope for the best (no soft proofing). I can see someone saying "Here's the actual output profile, use it" after which you would convert the data based on your preference for rendering intent and hopefully using the advanced CMS in PHotoshop (ACE). Then editing if you wish.
The idea of using a printer profile to view something, then not use it seems half baked.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Tell me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of it is you apply a base color space--in this case sRGB--so all aware apps know what a particular set of numbers for a pixel are supposed to mean. Then you apply the calibration profile--be it monitor or printer--to adjust for the characteristics of that output device. Since each printer/ink/paper combination is different you need a different adjustment from the base number. So, assigning a specific printer profile to an image hoses it up for any other output.
My understanding of the reason for getting the EZ Prints profile is so that you can soft proof to the profile that they use in production and make sure you see in advance what you get. Isn't this use the whole reason PS even has the soft proof functionality at all?
So, please explain.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
One big role of ICC profiles is to give the numbers a scale within human vision. For example, using an 8-bit system, the most saturated green we can define is R0/G255/B0. Problem is, numbers alone can't define color appearance. R0/G255/B0 is a different color in sRGB, Adobe RGB (1998), Epson 3800 Luster RGB etc. They all share the same numbers, they are all different colors. When you specify a profile and a set of numbers, you now have enough information to define that color. So ICC profiles define the scale of color numbers.
When you use the Assign Profile command in Photoshop on an image, the numbers do not change. Try it. Yet the color appearance does change.
When you tell Photoshop that R0/G255/B0 is sRGB, then assign ProPhoto RGB or Epson RGB, the numbers remain the same, the color appearance changes because Photoshop now knows where those color numbers fall within human vision (that funny looking horseshoe shaped plot shown from time to time the represents the gamut of human vision, all the visible colors we can see).
We also use ICC profile to convert from one color space to another.
When you soft proof, you're telling Photoshop "here's a document in sRGB, show me how these numbers will appear if I convert them to this printer using this profile". Like the Assign Profile command, it provides you a soft proof based on two profiles: sRGB and the Printer profile. Toggle the rendering intent, the appearance changes. You can keep the soft proof on, edit your sRGB document to better produce the color and tone you wish to express based on this output device. The question is, when you (or in the context of this thread, someone else) converts, will they use this profile and rendering intent? Why not just do it yourself, then have the lab send the new RGB values to the output device?
The display profile is always a sepearte entity here. We have a document in sRGB so here we have numbers and scale. But how do we know the numbers are correctly being reproduced on the display? We want the numbers to show us what these numbers represent. So we use a display profile which is unique for each user. Since PS 5, the display conditions have always been separate and divorced from how we edit our images. Its simply there to ensure, the current numbers in a defined color space preview correctly.
First, each device IS different. They are all in different color spaces, the output ICC profile defines that scale. We need output profiles for all the devices we hope to color manage. This allows us to provide the correct numbers for that device (convert to profile) AND view them.
2nd, you're confusing Assigning with Converting. Two different commands that do two different things. Assign simply defines the current set of numbers by associating a profile to that set of numbers. The numbers do not change. The definition, the scale changes. So the color appearance changes.
Convert to Profile does change the numbers. It produces a color space conversion (sRGB to Epson 3800 Luster).
Yes so why not convert using this profile? You'll end up with the correct RGB or (depending on the profile, CMYK) numbers for that device using the Convert to Profile command AND you get the soft proof after (or before) conversion. You get to control the rendering intent, use Adobe ACE and post edit the image if you so desire.
IF you only use the profile for soft proofing, you have no control over these options above and, you are not guaranteed that your sRGB document is converted using that profile. Is it? If not, what good is using it for the soft proof? In this area, I'm suggesting that supplying a good output profile, one that we assume defines the actual output device, then not converting is a half baked process.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
My two cents:
1. It's really easy to make skin look over-saturated. Landscapes are really popular when saturated and vibrant, but people shots tend to get returned when very saturated.
2. I believe it's good to upload your photos in the sRGB color space because it's the only one that can be reliably displayed on the Internet.
If you attach the EZ Prints profile, it wil be ignored by all web browsers except Safari on the Mac. If you convert your file to that profile, web browser software won't know you've done it because they don't know for color spaces, unlike Photoshop. So it won't display correctly on the web.
Andrew did a nice job of explaining the difference between converting to a color space and just attaching a profile.
3. I would let the printer do the converting unless you're like Rodney and really know what you're doing wrt rendering intent, the target printers, etc.
One reason is EZ Prints has many printer makes, sizes, and types (ink jet versus chemical, etc.) They present you with one profile for soft proofing. But in fact each printer has it's own profile to produce output true to the color profile you use for soft proofing.
Clear as mud?
Thanks,
Baldy
For web viewing, at the time being yes.
Or Safari on Windows. Yes, there's a beta Windows version, finally there's a PC browser that's ICC aware.
Assuming you have a good profile, its easy: Just look. Pick the rendering intent you prefer visually. Printer profiles only understand how solid colors should produce a fixed set of LAB numbers. They know nothing about images. You just toggle between Perceptual and Relative Colorimetric and pick the one, based on the image, you prefer. Pretty simple really.
I've heard this said about other such processes and it makes no sesne and doesn't wash. A profile is supposed to define device behavior. The soft proof is based on this. All the machines should provide the same color appearance from the same set of RGB numbers as defined by the profile. That's the only way you can provide ONE profile to everyone, then guarantee the output will match what they saw. What's the point of providing a profile the doesn't describe machine B, C or D but does describe machine A? You have to get them all calibrated to the same aim points, then you can use one profile for both soft proofing and output. If you need to use 8 different recipes for 8 printers, you better supply 8 profiles to the end user or all bets are off. Its often just easier to make all 8 devices produce the same behavior (its known as process control, its used all over the industry). Then one profile is all you need. That one profile remains valid and useful as long as all machines you'll send the numbers to, remain calibrated to the process the profile expects.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Except that 90+ % of the original poster's viewers will be using a browser that isn't....
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You're still going to see more faithful (more accurate) viewing from sRGB in Safari than any other browser which is useful to understand and recommend to those who wish to post or view images correctly. There's no longer an excuse on the PC side to ignore proper color appearance in a web browser. If that's not important to you, use any other browser you wish.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
First, thank you all for every consideration, concept and comment.
Still unsure of some concepts and after re-reading everything for the third time, I am thankful that somewhere along the way I learned to keep the original files and mess with copies, that I'm ~learning~ on about 7 images (not 150), that you all share your expertice and viewpoints, and that eventually I'll 'get it' no matter how uncomfortable this part of the learning curve is.
What an amazing forum.
I am reading and re-reading the posts to try to get a grip on everything.
Still kind of wishing there was a list for me to follow, in baby talk, for MY shots, intent, workflow, etc. Alas, I do dream.
I'd say that for now, my final destinations for the images are the web for online viewing, (they should look good with Internet Explorer AND Safari), and ultimately the Smugmug printer for prints.
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That list I'm dreaming of might look like:
Set your Canon 10D to Shoot in sRGB. (the RAW questions will come later)
Shoot your party or sailing trip or whatever.
Move all images from the CF card to a folder.
Make your room dim. Surround yourself with neutral colors and low-level full-spectrum light.
Adjust your monitor to show blacks, whites, greys, and a color chart. (get the calibration hardware later) (something about a Gamma adjustment?)
Cull and delete the junk shots using whatever program is fastest.
Perform minor batch tweaks if needed.
Upload the keepers to a SM Gallery - set Proof Delay to 7 days.
When notified an image needs to be tweaked for printing...
Open Photoshop. (here we go - this is where the clear as mud part starts)
Make the following settings in photoshop
(list)
Open original image
Answer (use/convert/discard) to the "Embedded Profile Mismatch" dialog box (which says I have Embedded: sRGB IEC61966-2.1 and Working: ezprints.icc)
Tweak away on your images.
Save them with an added letter (to preserve original file and indicate the image has been Photo-shopped)
Upload to Smugmug using "replace" selection
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Eventually, I want to have a better monitor (using Sylvania 17" CRT now; sister might give me a flat screen LCD), calibration equipment, a total understanding of what to use when, and to be able to determine exactly how my images will print and therefore be able to turn off "Auto" under SM's printing preferences.
For now, I'll get back to re-reading the post for understanding, to forming better specific questions, and hopefully be able to tweak the 7 images before the "Proof" time is up on the 3rd.
After I read some more, (trying to understand some terminology and concepts) I'll be back to post more questions, I'm sure...
......................................................
Quick Notes To Self - Trying to understand these...
Assign or Convert - when to and not to
Convert from one color space to another - how to
...soft proof based on two profiles: sRGB and the Printer profile. Toggle the rendering intent, the appearance changes - how to toggle
The display profile - what is that
You'll end up with the correct RGB numbers for that device using the Convert to Profile command AND you get the soft proof after (or before) conversion. - trying to get a grip on all this (making these adjustment IS soft proofing I hope; new term to me)
You get to control the rendering intent - (I like control)
Adobe ACE - what is that?
post edit the image - isn't that what this is all about?
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Thak you everyone - you're awesome.
dr carl
Canon 10D - sRGB
Windows XP
Sylvania CRT
Adobe Bridge
Adobe Photoshop
IE 7
This is the same reaction everyone has. None of us are born understanding Photoshop, imaging, color management, Resolution, etc. Take your time, the light bulb goes off and then all will be well.
First one is easy. You need an sRGB copy of the images for the web. If users are on Safari, so much the better. That image in Safari and Photoshop (or Lightroom, or C1 or any ICC aware application) will look identical and to all viewers. That's nice.
The 2nd is an output device, hence we've talked about soft proofing using an output profile, trying rendering intents, post editing if necessary based on this new conversion. That's where the profile provided that apparently isn't used (?) for the final process is half baked and not useful.
OK, just as long as you know this setting is only affecting the JPEG, you could also use a larger gamut space for the JPEG and save a smaller copy in sRGB for the web. You can go bigger (Adobe RGB to sRGB ) but not smaller.
That is always useful. Dim and consistent. Neutral colors, full spectrum, all good.
Calibrate and profile the display using an instrument at least once a month. Gamma is an unsupported Adobe product that was never designed for LCD displays and should not be used!!!
http://www.takegreatpictures.com/HOME/Columns/Digital_Photography/Details/Color_Management_and_Display.fci
Set the color policies to Preserve, then preserve what you get. This is an entirely new discussion (setting up Photoshop's color settings).
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If everything is being handled correctly, you'll never need to Assign a profile to a document. All that does is associate a color space to a pile of RGB or CMYK numbers. Your camera, scanner or Raw converter should always be embedding (also called tagging) a profile in every document it creates. The profile defines the current numbers. Sometimes, people do stupid things like strip away the profile. Photoshop and the color management products now see a big pile of undefined RGB or CMYK numbers and don't know how to represent them correctly to you. Assign profile is a way to associate the profile to the numbers. It works IF you know the correct profile to pick. If not, you guess and look on the screen and wonder when you can smack the person who originally stripped away the profile!
In Photoshop, Edit>Convert to Profile. Now you're altering all the numbers from one color space to another (sRGB to Smugmug printer for prints)
Based on display profile and profile you wish to use to simulate the output (Smugmug printer for prints).
Read the article on the URL above. Profile of YOUR display, made using an instrument.
Bingo.
The color engine developed by Adobe for making these conversions using profiles. Its the one to use! We don't need to go deeper, geek warning.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
(too rushed to fully figure out the quote thing for context - sorry)
I wonder how I begin “trying rendering intents”?
“OK, just as long as you know this setting is only affecting the JPEG, you could also use a larger gamut space for the JPEG and save a smaller copy in sRGB for the web. You can go bigger (Adobe RGB to sRGB ) but not smaller.”
How do I set/use a larger gamut space?
Why use a smaller copy in sRGB for the web? I understand that download time would improve, and that I can create smaller images when needed for other sites, yet the less steps the better?
Wouldn’t I just always preserve the sRGB except for when I use the EZ Prints profile? I’m still not clear on if this profile is actually embedded into the image submitted for SM prints, or somehow only used to visualize at my end what the profile will do once EZ Prints applies it. (am also still trying to figure out the specific steps on how to use the EZ Prints profile)
I wonder how to tell if I am using Gamma (I don’t yet have an LCD)...(update: Started Gamma while poking around. Have to restart to kill it)
I will properly calibrate my monitor once I get a calibration device. Flying by the seat of my pants right now. This is why I asked for help to see if my images WERE way oversaturated or not. Still working on this. Love the learning.
I started a new discussion: Setting up Photoshop’s color settings because, since so much of this happens in Photoshop, I bet this is important.
Assign vs. convert. Assign will be for later when I have a better understanding and calibrated equipment. For now, convert is the key (still getting a grip on this).
WOO! I just found something in Photoshop: View/Proof Setup – maybe THIS is where the soft proofing happens and the profile is used but not imbedded?!? It WAS on Working CMYK. I set it to Windows RGB. I wonder if that’s right. Will play with the EZ Prints profile here later.
“In Photoshop, Edit>Convert to Profile. Now you're altering all the numbers from one color space to another (sRGB to Smugmug printer for prints)”
Do I ~convert~ for Smugmug printer here for prints, or somehow just VIEW the sRGB image with a profile, make corrections, and submit (with no EZ Prints profile) as the sRGB? (sorry I’m feeling dense).
Sounds like ‘convert’ is the right thing to use when submitting final corrections for SM printing? Of course, I am trying for the WYSIWYG experience.
What are the PS steps to “toggle rendering intent”?
I suppose learning the implications (and how to) toggle between ‘perceptual’ and ‘relative’ colormetrics will be another question, I guess.
..............
OK, I found the Color Settings in Photoshop.
Set Color Management to ‘preserve.’
Set Working Spaces to sRGB IEC61966-2.1.
Opened original file in Photoshop
--sheesh—where did the day go?
I have to run out. Back later.
Many Thanks!
Dr Carl
Convert to Profile, toggle the intents in the popup, view the results.
You select the camera setting for Adobe RGB (1998)
In a nutshell, the non-color managed web assumes sRGB.
Smaller referred to the fact you have to sample down a high rez file for the web, so you have to save off a copy of the original. If its in Adobe RGB (1998), no big deal, convert, resize, save as a new doc for web use.
Once you decide what color space you want from the camera, then you preserve. If you preserve Adobe RGB you'll need to have an sRGB iteration for the web. But you need an iteration from the original anyway (a smaller file for web use).
Both.
Kill it.
Go to my web site, there's a PDF explaining it.
Ditto. Its all spelled out.
That's the crux of this thread. They say view it only, don't convert. Makes no sense to me. Once you read up on how color management works, you'll have to tell me if you agree or not.
Again, for SM we don't know. For other, correct color management workflows, yes indeed.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Finally home...a little food, then to read-up on Color Management
Wow
And thanx
Just remember to wait at least 30 minutes after eating before reading about Color management <g>
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
hahaah - I did wait....but the wait turned into a full night's rest. Tis morning and afternoon I'm plowing through "The Role Of Working Spaces" from your site...thanx for the link.
As I read that, and this entire thread again (now that some terminology and some concepts are sinking in), I've been making notes of what I'm still unclear on...I'll post them in case some answers come before I can suss 'em out...
This is all interesting and begs further questions / decisions. Here is my current list of issues...
Can I open the same image in two windows and see how changes will effect each; for example, one for the web (sRGB) and one for EZ Prints? (would I even want to do that?)
If I apply the EZ Prints profile to an image, and submit that file for printing, shouldn’t that create a condition where the profile on the SM end does nothing, since it’s already been corrected to that profile? Or, does this combination cause the image to be, um, re-profiled, or double-profiled?
It’s becoming apparent that, considering workflow, I'd post sRGB’s for gallery viewing, and go through the ‘replace’ routine after a ‘proof delay’ for actual print orders in order to make corrections specifically for EZ Prints. Keeping the sRGB even when replacing will help me feel better about the pending results because the thumbnails, now corrected, will display properly after I 'replace' them. Remaining is the question on whether or not to actually convert to the exprints profile - one of the cruxes of this thread.
(MY crux is what settings to use where to get my desired, awesome results! I note that Photoshop is very powerful, and that there are more than 3 ways to skin a cat)
OK, I see “intent” under Edit>Convert. I see perceptual, saturation, relative colormetric and absolute colormetric. What’s happening here? Are changes actually being made to the file, or are we simply changing what we are seeing/proofing on our displays? Which is closer to what EZ Prints will output?
Same question under View>Proof setup>custom - “customize proof condition” – why would I pick one over the other? Which is closer to what EZ Prints will output?
Under Assign to profile, the only kind of toggle I see involve changing the profile, say from sRGB to ezprints.icc.
If “convert” actually changes the base numbers, and “assign” does not, but does change how it appears to me on my screen, what’s the difference between assign and “proof” ? –when would I use each?
RE: "That's the crux of this thread. They say view it only, don't convert. Makes no sense to me. Once you read up on how color management works, you'll have to tell me if you agree or not."
This is what I call “a math thing.” With conversion to the EZPrints profile, either the image gets ‘double profiled’ or not. With enough time, some test prints would prove this. Maybe the preferred combo’s are go something like this: 1) submit sRGB’s (proofed with ezprints profile only on MY end) and pick the “Auto” color selection when ordering prints. Alternatively, 2) select “true” for the color selection when ordering prints that have been converted (and proofed) to the EZPrints profile. Just thinking out loud here.
I better finish reading about Working Spaces before I have to go to a party! (And, frankly, I might rather figure this out than party!)
Thank you for all your awesome help.
dr carl
Yeah and it was one of the links I gave you way back
Portfolio • Workshops • Facebook • Twitter
Sheesh - hey, reading that ~slowly~ at the time would almost be like consulting a map, or asking for directions...I thought I know enough to figure it out after the first paragraph. Kind of glad, though, because I am learning much more...so many settings. And now, re-reading that link is more meaningful!
You recommend the "perceptual" intent? (I'll find out the effects of all the other settings eventually)
OH! I found a typo on that page! "seee" might be better as "see" -lol-
And, the right and left justify makes three words in the paragraph take up a whole line! Not pretty! (I'd suggest a space before and after the "/" marks). Here's the sentence to look for.
To install ICC profiles on a Mac with OS X: Drag the ICC profile to the Users/[user name]/Library/ColorSync/Profiles folder.
What do I win?
That's totally dependant on the image and the softare that built the profile.
Profiles don't know squat about iamges, it would treat a black dog on coal and a white cat on snow, plus a sunset image the same. You have to look at the differences and pick one you prefer. That's the point of soft proofing with a profile and then making that conversion.
In addition, each software company that builds printer profiles builds a perceptual intent as they see fit. There's no standard or colorimetric rule in how to do this (there IS, based on ICC spec, how they should produce a colorimetric intent). Relative Colorimetric is such a conversion. Its cousin, the Absolute Colorimetric intent is identical expect it simulates the paper white of the source onto the destination. Only useful for proofing (make my Epson printer simulate this press).
So view either Perceptual or Relative Colorimetric and pick the one you wish. Keep in mind that the Perceptual intent results are profile company specific. Recommending a single intent isn't viable for those who want to convert at the highest level of control available.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
.....interesting....thank you for your reflections and help...
so, when I select an intent...and view the change that I see it make on an image, somehow, that change is embedded or attached to the image? --so that if I like what I see with one of the 4 intent selections within "convert", I just go with it and these changes will be made to the image and effect the print?
Rodney, do you make prints through SM? (If not, where do you?) And, if so, do you 'convert'? (Sorry for a moronic question). And, do your prints arrive appearing as you expected them to? (I am assuming that you actually DO what we've been talking about...using 'convert' and picking your preferred 'intent' and all...)
I am beginning to understand that ALL the controls are not for everyone for the same reason that someone without training should not jump into a formula 1 race car...and, for some, those who are born drivers, the race car just feels like home (once the mechanics and the 'how to's' of the car are known)...I mean, there are many roads to a similar destination.
I'm finding myself wondering what YOU do, but will not ask untill these beers wear off, and my new roof job for my home is well under way tomorrow.
thank you again, and g'night
Yes. You can skip even looking at the Absolute Colorimetric intent. Saturation is designed for "business graphics" like pie charts but I tell people, depending on the printer profile and the software that created it, you might wish to look at the soft proof. If you like the color appearance, by all means use it. No harm done.
I do all my own printing.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
One very telling comment here from Andrew: "I do all my own printing." So, I now see where you are coming from with the insistence on converting to the printer profile. You're in a closed-loop system. That's great, but I still disagree with the concept for most users. For example, I have two printers: an HP 130 and a Canon 950i, so converting to a profile for one hoses up the file for the other. Then, I might take that same file & have SM print it on one of the three printers based on size, again converting to any one hoses up the file for all the rest.
My understanding of the printer profile is that it's saying that, for example, when a pixel set at 0,255,0 is sent the printer will output 10,245,8 so needs to make the approrpiate adjustement. Same with a monitor calibration. Or have I completely mis-understood everything I've been reading?
Really that's the only thing I'm hung up on with this thread now. From where I'm at right now, IMHO converting to a printer profile is completely wrong. Everything else, I'm on the same page with the rest of you.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
I never said I've never used outside printing. I have. For Photographic work (large Lightjet work), I've used Pictopia.com who supplies excellent output profiles for the specific devices they expect you to soft proof and print on. I have an Epson 4800, 3800, Canon ipf5000 and Pro9500. There's little reason I personally need to send my images out for printing.
You need two profiles, one for each printer. You have to use one for the HP, the other for the Canon. IF you had two Canon's, you might very well use the same Canon profile for each because they both behave the same.
That's correct. The profile provides the necessary RGB or CMYK numbers to produce the color appearance you expect.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Let's say one was to use the ezprints profile for soft proofing, without converting...what happens to the displayed image, the later saved image, and the EZprints print made from that file when you check, or uncheck the "Preserve RGB numbers" option? (And what about black point compensation and the other settings? - I know I know...I can find it if I read enough)
I have not read enough from my friend, Google, yet...seems that with it checked, the image displayed will reflect how it would appear if not actually converted to the profile. This has not sunk-in for me yet. Why should someone "see what it looks like without conversion" while they are "seeing what it looks like WITH conversion" by doing a soft proofing?
Further, are any changes made to the image file, or is this just a setting for viewing the image while in Photoshop?
I know I have more questions since I have to get these proofed by tomorrow. At this point, I know I should take three images and try them both ways (converted and not converted).
Andy W should know what's preferred by SM so for this first run; he says don't convert if I remember correctly. Half-baked or not, I'll most likely submit as a sRGB without the conversion. The image might even look nice in the thumbnail, but it really doesn't matter; what matters is the print.
Eventually, I'll try it both ways, believe me!
Much appreciation for all the awesome brain cells that are firing, misfiring, shorting-out, and otherwise connecting (or not) lol
Dr Carl
Greetings!
Learned a lot. In fact, I've learned everything. Got to The End of the internet. I read every page on every server in cyberspace.
Hope I learned enough.
Here's a link to Gallery for analysis II - my latest attempt.
http://drcarl.smugmug.com/gallery/3399434/1/190102451#190102183
Pairs: as shot, then corrected with notes
Am I closer?
How about spot-on? -lol-
(I know the "red coat" one is a bit ruddy, getting late...had to do the "replace" routine so they'd be ready to print tomorrow.)
Comments? Suggestions?
Thank you,
Dr Carl
(Soon? I'll try a test - one with conversion, and one without and only soft proofed with ezprints profile)
Here's what the Preserve option does. You have a document in sRGB. You pick an output profile (EZ) and you check this box. Photoshop shows you what the print would look like if you sent the sRGB numbers to the device WITHOUT using that profile. Photoshop knows the document is sRGB, it knows what the output conditions are due to the EZ profile. You're supposed to use this profile to convert the document from sRGB to EZ but what would the print look like if you don't use the outut profile.
Always leave it on. It either does nothing or helps a great deal (if you have to know what BPC is, there's a PDF on my site). Note this is a feature of the Adobe Color Engine (ACE). Another reason why YOU want to use the profile to convert to the printer color space, not JUST soft proof with it. Will EZ use ACE to eventually convert the doc at print time? We dont know.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
So then this is not an adjustment that's imbedded into the file by selecting it. It's more for taking a temporary peek at the un-converted image? Still seems odd to me that (probably just my lack of understanding)... if one WAS to be converting, why would we care what the unconverted image looked like? If one was NOT to be converting, and was only soft proofing with the profile, it is again irrelevant?
*thinking* maybe it's useful to see what an image would look like on an un-colormanaged webpage...such as when, um....*shrugs*...so much to learn...I like that, I think.
Perhaps the lucid questin is this: Under what circumstances is this function useful?
I wonder which article?
Thank you for sharing these resources.
Dr Carl
It shows you how ugly the image would appear if you didn't use color management for one.
In some workflows its useful because some devices are close to others and you may find the color appearance with this option on, looks OK. You could send the numbers, "as is" to the output device. You have a CMYK file for press A (and no original RGB file). You have to print it on press B. Before you jump through hoops and do a potentially dangerous CMYK to CMYK conversion, you look at the soft proof with the check box on. It looks fine, you send the Document to Press B.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
dr carl
(just received my SM test print. I think I'll shoot it under two different perhaps extreme lighting ocnditions, PP with soft proof for ezprint profile, then 'convert' one and not the other and submit the two final files for a test. I'll probably test them both on the SM "true color" correction option as well as the "Auto" selection.)
Back to helping with the new roof. Thanx again everyone.