Questions for all you Portrait Pros

SaltFork · September 12, 2007

Life changes .... and I'm trying to change with it. Through a series of very fortunate events I find myself able to redirect my career away from "have to," toward "want to." And what I want to do is build my photography business.

I created a Smugmug Site (here) about 18 months ago to display my favorites. I started shooting local youth sports and found that I could pay for my new equipment by selling small prints. Along the way, people have admired my nature and event shots and have started asking me to do Senior Portraits. Until two months ago I swore that I would never take people pictures. Now, with a little success behind me, I'm thinking this could be a lot of fun and I'm thinking I could be good at it if I put my mind to it.

I've converted an office into a studio, invested in some AlienBees, and I've got the right lenses. But I've got lots of questions about "the business.":dunno

1. When you do a Senior Portrait session, about how many shots do you take?

2. After you edit the shoot, how many shots do you make available to a client?

3. I think you have to limit the time for ordering. What's your take?

4. Do you sell a CD with Top 5 or Top 10 like Ross or do you make digital downloads available?

5. Do you Photoshop all the shots that you place in the clients gallery? or do you use Smugmug's Proof Delay?

6. If you Proof Delay do you Photoshop a few of the files to give your client a flavor for what you would do to the rest?

That's probably enough questions for now. You can see that my main concerns are about work flow for the Portrait Photog.

For your help, I bow in your general direction... :bow

dangin · September 12, 2007

1. When you do a Senior Portrait session, about how many shots do you take?

A: as many as it takes. i spend about an hour with my clients.

2. After you edit the shoot, how many shots do you make available to a client?

A: usually a 2-4 from each look.

3. I think you have to limit the time for ordering. What's your take?

A: i ask that clients place their orders within 30 days but i leave the images up for them to trickle order.

4. Do you sell a CD with Top 5 or Top 10 like Ross or do you make digital downloads available?

A: depends on how they book me. i'll usually give them a disc with email size (320x240 or 640x480) of their images with my name and website watermarked on it. perfect for them to distribute via myspace or emails. i consider it free advertsing.

5. Do you Photoshop all the shots that you place in the clients gallery? or do you use Smugmug's Proof Delay?

A: i only enhance the keepers, then i upload them. i only use the proof delay to check over their order before production. sometimes clients do strange things with the cropping option.

6. If you Proof Delay do you Photoshop a few of the files to give your client a flavor for what you would do to the rest?

A: see #5 response.

congratulations on starting your own business. you've started down a road full of tough times, good times, and the potential for great self fulfillment.

rosselliot · September 12, 2007

My responses are in bold : )

1. When you do a Senior Portrait session, about how many shots do you take?

I take between 200-300 images, then have a 55-60% acceptance rate, which I then whittle down to less than 100 images. If they changed outfits more than once though, that number usually increases by 20-25. I try not to overwhelm them too much, however I've found that in today's market with digital being so relevant, people want more than 24 choices (like the days of film) you know? so I try to give them about 100...maybe a few more. Because I've found that the ones I LOVE and think are the absolute BEST photos - are not the ones the client orders. because I'm looking at it at my standpoint as a photographer - so I've gotten a good median where I do nothing too crazy or 'artsy' so that everyone will like them and I get the most sales...it's something I've had to work on though - it's hard to keep in the middle of everything!

2. After you edit the shoot, how many shots do you make available to a client?

oh - well, answered above, I guess...hahaha.

3. I think you have to limit the time for ordering. What's your take?

I give them 3 months, then their 'shopping album' expires. However it says IN MY CONTRACT that photos will be kept in storage for about one year, photos may be accessed for prints through photographer (me), however the order will be subjected to higher shipping and handling fees if order is placed after 3 month period.

4. Do you sell a CD with Top 5 or Top 10 like Ross or do you make digital downloads available?

I do sell a Top 5 or Top 10 just like Ross! what are the chances!?!?!?! haha! oh wait....

5. Do you Photoshop all the shots that you place in the clients gallery? or do you use Smugmug's Proof Delay?

clients never see a photo that is unedited by me personally, my editing is part of my style and image. I guess that's what you're talking about...like letting them see an image that is unedited then have them imagine what it would like edited? I mean, after I get down to the final 50-60% of keepers I edit ALL of those so I can see what they'll look like myself, then I delete all the ones that I sorta/kinda don't like...then I upload the final 100 or so

6. If you Proof Delay do you Photoshop a few of the files to give your client a flavor for what you would do to the rest?

I guess I answered that above?

I hope that helps...!!!!

- Ross

dogwood · September 13, 2007

SaltFork wrote:

1. When you do a Senior Portrait session, about how many shots do you take?

I offer sessions based on time (two hours for a senior) so I shoot as much as they want during that time period. No limit on number of frames.

SaltFork wrote:

2. After you edit the shoot, how many shots do you make available to a client?

I post everything watermarked and the client selects ten of those to be retouched for print and web files.

SaltFork wrote:

3. I think you have to limit the time for ordering. What's your take?

No time limit, but I prefer to give the files to the client and let them deal with the printing. Not everybody agrees with this procedure, but clients love it and it saves me work. And honestly, it was something I picked up from a wedding photographer three years ago when I got married-- the price included the files, but no prints, and that was fine with me.

I also provide web res files of the selections the client chooses, and these do contain a "© Pete Springer" in a corner. I find most people don't resize properly for the web and plus that gives me a nice little plug on myspace (where lots of these senior pics end up).

SaltFork wrote:

4. Do you sell a CD with Top 5 or Top 10 like Ross or do you make digital downloads available?

No top 5, just the ten photos they select and then I send a link where they can download them. This is covered in the session fee.

SaltFork wrote:

5. Do you Photoshop all the shots that you place in the clients gallery? or do you use Smugmug's Proof Delay?

I post the jpegs straight from the camera with watermarks (and explain this to the client). I do shoot RAW, though, so the retouched images the client gets are processed from RAW.

Hope that helps. Basically, everybody does it differently. I like to offer a flat fee for a certain # of files and let the client deal with the printing. Most of my clients these days want files though, so that's why I don't emphasize the print aspect. I'm also tired of the whole, "Costco only charges 29 cents for a 5x7 and you charge $7. Why?"

Hey, if someone wants to deal with the printing themselves, I'm fine with that. As far as worrying about my work being printed sloppily, well, that burden rests on the client.

dogwood · September 13, 2007

rosselliot wrote:

I've found that the ones I LOVE and think are the absolute BEST photos - are not the ones the client orders.

This is so true! It's also why when you're editing down the images from a shoot, you don't want anything too bad in there. Because if you just assume the client will have sense enough to not selet those images, well, you're going to be surprised! Clients (and photo editors) have an uncanny ability to select the worst images from a shoot-- so make sure those aren't options.

dangin · September 13, 2007

dogwood wrote:

This is so true! It's also why when you're editing down the images from a shoot, you don't want anything too bad in there. Because if you just assume the client will have sense enough to not selet those images, well, you're going to be surprised! Clients (and photo editors) have an uncanny ability to select the worst images from a shoot-- so make sure those aren't options.

i have my wife go over the images with me because her pov is completely different from mine.

Halliday · September 14, 2007

SaltFork wrote:

...
1. When you do a Senior Portrait session, about how many shots do you take?

2. After you edit the shoot, how many shots do you make available to a client?

3. I think you have to limit the time for ordering. What's your take?

4. Do you sell a CD with Top 5 or Top 10 like Ross or do you make digital downloads available?

5. Do you Photoshop all the shots that you place in the clients gallery? or do you use Smugmug's Proof Delay?

6. If you Proof Delay do you Photoshop a few of the files to give your client a flavor for what you would do to the rest?....

1) I shoot for the time purchased. Usually about 300 images/hr outside, less inside.

2) I promise 24 images/hr. I usually deliver 2x that

3) No time limit. I've had orders a full year later.

4) I provide a cd of the finished images. If they want to buy prints....cool.

5) PS all the shots before they see them.

6) I have not used Proof Delay.

Hope that helps.

rosselliot · September 14, 2007

dangin wrote:

i have my wife go over the images with me because her pov is completely different from mine.

This is a great idea, I usually use the same process, having my both my parents and even some friends view them before I give the people their official password, because I take things for the value of the actual photograph itself, you know? Other people's point of view is invaluable!

- Ross

Sam · September 14, 2007

Halliday wrote:

1) I shoot for the time purchased. Usually about 300 images/hr outside, less inside.

2) I promise 24 images/hr. I usually deliver 2x that

3) No time limit. I've had orders a full year later.

4) I provide a cd of the finished images. If they want to buy prints....cool.

5) PS all the shots before they see them.

6) I have not used Proof Delay.

Hope that helps.

Halliday,

How can you shoot 300 images in one hour???? That's one every 12 seconds!

Also you say you process 48 per hour shoot.

I would think your looking at 3 to 4 hours work minimum. Including driving time, photo session, gear preperation, and post sprocessing.

All this for $75.00!

Sam

Halliday · September 14, 2007

I like my 5fps 20D, what can I say?

I spend about 1 hr PP for every hour shooting.

Driving more that 50 miles from my place does incure a extra charge.

I fully intend to increase my prices eventually

SaltFork · September 20, 2007

Thanks for everyone's answers / comments!
You've all been very helpful to me.

As I've considered each of your responses, I've naturally reached the conclusion that there are many viable ways to execute this business model. The important thing will be to listen to what my customers want.

Already, since I posted my questions, I've gotten direction about what to provide from one of my customers and from my wife.

One of the concerns that I continue to have is about the computer sophistication required for online print ordering. To me it is no biggie, but I aways worry about folks being able to handle it with minimal frustration.

I'm also concerned about people with uncalibrated monitors not liking what they see on those monitors. What do you folks think about delivering a small set of 4x6's (my choice of poses) as part of the sitting fee to be delivered to them so that they can see a) print quality and b) color quality that is possibly better than their monitor? They would then have unwatermarked proofs to keep from their sitting and an overall better idea of the quality of the work.

Always looking to make it easier for them to place the order......

Thanks again for your insights!

rosselliot · September 20, 2007

SaltFork wrote:

You've all been very helpful to me.

As I've considered each of your responses, I've naturally reached the conclusion that there are many viable ways to execute this business model. The important thing will be to listen to what my customers want.

Already, since I posted my questions, I've gotten direction about what to provide from one of my customers and from my wife.

One of the concerns that I continue to have is about the computer sophistication required for online print ordering. To me it is no biggie, but I aways worry about folks being able to handle it with minimal frustration.

I'm also concerned about people with uncalibrated monitors not liking what they see on those monitors. What do you folks think about delivering a small set of 4x6's (my choice of poses) as part of the sitting fee to be delivered to them so that they can see a) print quality and b) color quality that is possibly better than their monitor? They would then have unwatermarked proofs to keep from their sitting and an overall better idea of the quality of the work.

Always looking to make it easier for them to place the order......

Thanks again for your insights!

my only concern about the 4x6s is this:

you CANNOT just give them the 4x6s...that needs to be obvious, you can't just give them that unless your sitting fee reflects such offers. You can show them for sure, but when you show them the 4x6s, I think they'll be surprised when you say, well, you'll have to buy them if you want them. I think that having them in print is just like - 'well, why can't you give them to me?! You can't do anything with them...you're probably just going to throw them away or file them or something, so you might as well give them to me, because I'd like to have them!' I just think the average customer won't be able to understand that you can't just give it to them...even though you have in your hand right there.

and I defintely understand what you mean about making it easy for them to order off of the internet, but I think you might want to consider doing an 'in person' sales session - a meeting to meet with the customer and show them their images in a high res slide show and make sure that the images they see are the best they can be (on a high res monitor with color calibration, etc). You will also sell so many more if you meet in person, that's a proven fact.

- Ross

SaltFork · September 20, 2007

rosselliot wrote:

my only concern about the 4x6s is this:

you CANNOT just give them the 4x6s...that needs to be obvious

- Ross

Ain't nuttin' free! I'm thinking that it would be an option with the sitting fee. For example, $50 per hour on location plus $10 for six 4x6 "proof" prints to keep. I would explain that it is an option that provides them with six below-normal-cost 4x6's and the opportunity to see real print samples before they place an order.

Also, your comment about doing a personal review with them is well taken. I had hoped to avoid that step in the process but I can see that the increased sales might make it worthwhile. My desire to avoid that step is driven by my physical office facility not being convenient to most of my "location" clients......

Thanks for your input, Ross!

Questions for all you Portrait Pros

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