60 fps, 300 fps? Go Casio!

ziggy53

You need to see the preliminary specs and videos of this (unnamed) Casio camera to understand the future of digicams.

This could be the next "Big Thing". :thumb

http://world.casio.com/ngdc/en/

boulderNardo

HOLY MACCARONI! That's one interesting new product. I can't even fathom every possible use for 60fps high-res imagining, it opens up doors never thought of before. But 300fps of video recording, that's just incredible ... both feautures, not just for professionals in the photography/videography field, but also for groups on low-budget that need the ability to analyze moments in slow-motion (think of low-key athletes, be it runners or UFC'ers, who want to analyze their technique in slow-motion and can't afford a $100k pricetag on currently existing machinery).

WOW

Rhuarc

Wow, that is pretty crazy. Any ideas if this type of tech would make it into an SLR at some point? More so the 60fps stills, not the video. That camera would make an amazing vacation camera!!

sirsloop

taking photos at 60fps is one thing... taking QUALITY photos at 60fps is another (quality lens selections, focus at 60fps, ergonomics, iso performance, etc etc). IDK if they can use a real shutter... its probably mechanically not possible at those speeds. Maybe they use some technology that turns the sensor on and off electronically to control exposure? That preview mode thing is another question mark. What does it do - buffer the last five seconds in onboard RAM or something and dump the files on to flash when you hit the button?

As far as being a pro camera... you're gonna end up with AN ABSURD amount of photos to go through. If you take 60photos every time you press the button...thats 22 "shots" before you fill a 8GB CF card. Figure 6MB per RAW image*60 = 360MB/"photo"...

IMHO, its cool technology but its not ready for mass market. 60fps is a gimmick at this point. I'll stick with 3fps and press the button for one photo when i'm supposed to

Martyn

I believe this is the future of digital photography.

You will shoot stills at video speed and select the frame you want as the pic.

ziggy53

Martyn wrote:

I believe this is the future of digital photography.

You will shoot stills at video speed and select the frame you want as the pic.

Bingo!

Shizam

Thats a scary future, calling that photography cheapens many of the things I love about photographs.

:cry

colourbox

Martyn wrote:

I believe this is the future of digital photography.
You will shoot stills at video speed and select the frame you want as the pic.

Actually, it is the present of photojournalism.

And it doesn't cheapen much of anything. You still need to expose properly. You still need to focus and set depth of field. You still need to compose. You must still master the lighting and relate to the subject. The entire rest of the photographic discipline remains unchanged.
Used in this way, it's just a different form of burst mode; anyone worried about the decisive moment already lost the battle with that one.

Using it as video, I'll take a future version of that camera, because most current video cameras can't shoot at high frame rates (60fps or more). High-speed photography played back at 30fps can be beautiful. Just study the high-speed/slow-motion experimental films of Maya Deren.

There is also the new Red camera system - 11 megapixels at 60fps. But that one's meant for HD video production, you don't exactly carry it around in your shoulder bag.

mr peas

I have to see/feel/try it to believe it.

Shizam

Conceptually the technical setup of a 'photograph' in that scenerio requires much of the same prep work but I fear the beauty, art, uniqueness and care put into the photograph is lost. Forget about photojournalism for the moment (besides which that article is about how that guy wants photojournalism to go that direction and he is meeting heavy resistance) as I can see both sides of the argument: you're recording a unique moment in history vs you want to capture as much as you can before the moment passes and make a decision later.

First let me backup and say I strongly dislike video as a form of preserving 'the moment', it tends towards getting a pile of information that you only look back on once (if that) and generally other people don't enjoy it, my opinion. I feel this is tending towards that mentality, of just walking down the plaza at 60FPS and feeling you 'got it' and moving on, but what did you 'get' and when are you going to go back and take from that what you want. This goes for any situation where you sub in 60FPS where you would normally use a still camera.

Romantasicm aside consider the sheer amount of data saturation these things will spew, you'd come back from a trip/event with millions of frames of data, 'where was that one you wanted again? ah screw it its in there somewhere, I got it'. Think of the time you already have to invest in a trip of 1000 photos...

I guess I'm especially sensitive to this having shot digital for several years then tried medium and large format with slide flim where you really have to slow down and 'smell the roses' of the composition which has caused me to go back and reevaluate how I photograph.

Ah well, probably a better discussion over beers with some handwaving.

ziggy53

I am betting this is a "specialty" camera, and I bet the shot buffer is probably no more than a few shots deep at full resolution.

Cameras with high frame rates don't have to be used in that way. They tend also to be very responsive in single shot mode, because everything is designed for speed. I'm betting the Nikon D3 will be a joy to use in single shot mode because it has been speeded up in every sense of the word. Using it at 11 frames per second will have its applications, but you wouldn't want to use it all the time. Still, it's nice to feel that the camera is so willing to do your bidding.

In the case of the Casio it will probably require lots of light to work at the high frame rates. Electronic flash will probably not be available except at slow rates.

Certainly Casio is using an electronic shutter, like most digicams, so I don't expect much of a mechanical shutter mechanism on this model.

I am anxious to see more developments like this because it sparks new ideas for opportunities in digital photography.

I do find it curious that in the television news gathering world, videographers are commonly called "photographers". Perhaps high resolution motion photography is finally coming of age. I encourage folks to accept these new technologies for what they are. You ain't seen nothin' yet!

Imagine a camera that can take extremely high frame rates while focussing into the field of the subject. Essentually you would get "slices" of the image field, building a "depth map" of images which could be used for all sorts of things.

Imagine a camera capable of taking multiple images at different exposures for each image, all exposures taken in the blink of an eye. Dynamic range could be extremely deep.

The possibilities for high quality, high frame rate cameras are staggering.

Martyn

ziggy53 wrote:

Imagine a camera capable of taking multiple images at different exposures for each image, all exposures taken in the blink of an eye. Dynamic range could be extremely deep.

Isn't this already being worked on.

I can't rmember the actual article or link but I remember seeing an online demostartion of photographs where the focus/DOF could be manipulated.

The images I remember seeing were of faces at different depths from the camera and some coloured pencils.

ziggy53

Martyn wrote:

Isn't this already being worked on.

I can't rmember the actual article or link but I remember seeing an online demostartion of photographs where the focus/DOF could be manipulated.

The images I remember seeing were of faces at different depths from the camera and some coloured pencils.

There are at least two different technologies which promise to allow variable DOF and/or variable focus in post processing. Both are pretty much in the research stage and very low quality.

The Casio style extremely high frame rate plus certain methods of image stacking could allow the capability now. Variable layer processing could allow a myriad of other capabilities like virtual object insertion for one. Exposure adjustments front to rear could be much easier as well, with each image a possible corrective layer.

I see good stuff on the horizon!

ivar

Am I the only one who doesn't see any usefulness for most photographers in this?

What good will 60fps do for me? or even 20 for that matter? Are we really going to take 60 frames and find the best one in it? Let's say you take shots for .5 of a second to get a 'good one'. That means that on a trip where I would take 100 shots, I now have 3000 to go through? Not sure about others, but I don't have the time for that, nor would I want to make time for it.
Not to mention the amount of memory cards I have to carry.


What about using flash at 60fps?

ziggy53

"Traditional" applications include:

High speed motion analysis:

- Golf Swing/Tennis Swing etc.
- Animal Behavior (jumping, running, etc.)
- Manufacturing Processes
- Automobile Diagnostics
- Laminar Flow Studies
- Electrical Perturbance Studies
- Projectile Analysis

Sports:

- Football, kickoff, interception, tackle, ... etc.
- Baseball, hit, catch, pitch
- Soccer, kick, block, pass
- Basketball, dribble, shoot, pass

20 years ago, most people shot in "chunks" of images based on the 24-36 exposure rolls of film available at the time. 2 frames-per-second was an extravagance few could afford. A wedding might have consisted of 200 actual shots with maybe 80 delivered images. An expensive wedding might be twice those numbers.

Look at what has happened. It's now commonplace to find folks shooting the heck out of weddings, and vacations, and sports, and ...

Technology has made all of this possible, as well as the vision of a few who made it practical.

I am not saying this particular Casio camera is an extremely practical example of what is to come. I am saying that it presents a glimpse of the wonderful opportunities that "will" unfold as a result of new technologies.

claudermilk

Sizam wrote:

Conceptually the technical setup of a 'photograph' in that scenerio requires much of the same prep work but I fear the beauty, art, uniqueness and care put into the photograph is lost. Forget about photojournalism for the moment (besides which that article is about how that guy wants photojournalism to go that direction and he is meeting heavy resistance) as I can see both sides of the argument: you're recording a unique moment in history vs you want to capture as much as you can before the moment passes and make a decision later.

First let me backup and say I strongly dislike video as a form of preserving 'the moment', it tends towards getting a pile of information that you only look back on once (if that) and generally other people don't enjoy it, my opinion. I feel this is tending towards that mentality, of just walking down the plaza at 60FPS and feeling you 'got it' and moving on, but what did you 'get' and when are you going to go back and take from that what you want. This goes for any situation where you sub in 60FPS where you would normally use a still camera.

Romantasicm aside consider the sheer amount of data saturation these things will spew, you'd come back from a trip/event with millions of frames of data, 'where was that one you wanted again? ah screw it its in there somewhere, I got it'. Think of the time you already have to invest in a trip of 1000 photos...

I guess I'm especially sensitive to this having shot digital for several years then tried medium and large format with slide flim where you really have to slow down and 'smell the roses' of the composition which has caused me to go back and reevaluate how I photograph.

Ah well, probably a better discussion over beers with some handwaving.

Hear! Hear! I totally agree.

I've done the same: moved to digital for a few year, then went "backwards" in buying a MF film rig for fun & to slow myself down. You know what? The very first roll out of the camera is the best I'd shot in a long time, and probably the best film I've shot period. I think the quality of the images is due to the time & care taken with them. IMHO 60FPS won't allow for that & encourages the "aw hell, I got it in there somewhere" frame of mind. On the flip side, ziggy give some very valid places where this technology can be quite useful. It's back to my old saw: right tool for the right job.

Rhuarc

The biggest thing I could see this being used for is stuff like sports. If you could do a 2 second burst of a pitch being thrown and hit you could get any of the shots in between, right where the ball made contact, or where the player gets hit, etc...

Shizam

Oh, yea no doubt this'll be _awesome_ for sports photography or car racing or the like, full thumbs up to its use there. I was just responding to the 'this is the future of photography' in general statement, the idea of just using 60fps all the time and data saturation.

... man when did I become such a luddite.

wxwax

ziggy53 wrote:

I am betting this is a "specialty" camera, and I bet the shot buffer is probably no more than a few shots deep at full resolution.

I do find it curious that in the television news gathering world, videographers are commonly called "photographers". Perhaps high resolution motion photography is finally coming of age. I encourage folks to accept these new technologies for what they are. You ain't seen nothin' yet!

Imagine a camera that can take extremely high frame rates while focussing into the field of the subject. Essentually you would get "slices" of the image field, building a "depth map" of images which could be used for all sorts of things.

Imagine a camera capable of taking multiple images at different exposures for each image, all exposures taken in the blink of an eye. Dynamic range could be extremely deep.

The possibilities for high quality, high frame rate cameras are staggering.

I agree, it's a specialty camera. The average photographer doesn't have much use for 60fps stills or 300fps video. And the memory all those frames consume is substantial.

I wouldn't read too much into 'photographer' versus 'videographer.' They've always been called photographers. Videographer is relatively new and somewhat affected (albeit more accurate.)

I like your vision of the future, with more or less instant focus and exposure bracketing, pretty cool.

colourbox

Sizam wrote:

Oh, yea no doubt this'll be _awesome_ for sports photography or car racing or the like, full thumbs up to its use there. I was just responding to the 'this is the future of photography' in general statement, the idea of just using 60fps all the time and data saturation.

It'll be like all the other futures of photography. It won't be the future of photography, it will be a future of photography, one that a certain number of photographers will simply leave off. Like Program mode. Program mode can destroy photography, and if someone leaves it on all the time they should have bought a point-and-shoot, but it can be turned off. There are some really cool, futuristic, and even absurd features in each of our SLRs, and each of us never touches a certain percent of them. It's just that each of us turns off a different set of them. 60fps will be there in the menus and we'll use it when it's needed, but not all the time.

pathfinder

This camera is a point and shoot built on a P&S sensor. Most P&Ss have incorporated some form of video recording, but this one records in HD

This camera is built on a 1/1.8 in sensor 7.2 by 5.3 mm or 38.16 sq mm total area.

(Contrast that with the full frame Canon or Nikon that is almost 24 x 36mm or 864 sq mm.)

In terms of flash, the Casio site says it will shoot 20 frames in the dark with the onboard flash at 7 frames a second. That is pretty cool.

Sensors ( 1/1.8 inch) this small tend to be "noisy," but with the high frame rate there will almost certainly be a way to digitally stack these images for noise abatement.

SloYerRoll

With PsCS3 that's already here. There's an option in Ps (extended version only) called image stack. It was designed for forensics experts but can be used as a noise reducer as well. That coupled w/ Ps's new Auto Align layer option. It's very powerful tool.