I'm trying to learn manual, does it get worse before better?

melissa6631 · March 1, 2005

Ok, so I'm trying and trying to figure out this drebel. I'm mainly using a 50mm 1.8 and I have a Canon 420 flash as well.

(Wow I just realized i have NO idea how to post an image. I'm going to try and pray it works LOL)

This is what the photo looked like straight out of the camera. (I can't remember if it was manual or "no flash" ) I've found i'm getting better results when I put the camera on the no flash option.

Aperture: f/2.2 ISO: 100 Focal Length: 50mm (guess: 53mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 0.0125s (1/80)JPEG Quality:3Flash:Flash did not fire, compulsory flash mode

And this is what i've changed it to

So how do I get this exposure thing right. Oh by the way, I just ordered Undertanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson and it should be here today or tomorrow.I'm excited. I'm told it will help alot!
i haven't figured out when to use 1.8 vs 5.6 etc and get it to work with the exposure and when you say shutter speeds of 1/2 second and 1/60 I need to know i guess how to set it that way on the camera.

wxwax · March 1, 2005

I haven't played with a drebel, not sure how the light meter works. So take this advice with a grain of salt.

I'd meter her face, and try to keep the indicator a little above halfway on the scale - say about 60%. Play with aperature, ISO and shutter speed until you get the amount of light you need. Careful with really wide aperatures, your depth of field may be so narrow that parts of her face are not in focus.

You don't mention your ISO - I'm sure you can go to 400 or higher on a drebel without too much noise.

I wouldn't ask her to stay still for 1/2 a second - that's too long. Better to adjust the camera for a quicker shutter speed.

Fianlly, check your histogram afterwards each shot. Make sure that nothing's touching the right side of the indicator. As long as you keep the bulges close to, but inside, the right side, you should be OK. Not sure if the drebel shows you blinking areas when you playback a shot and you've overexposed something.

ridetwistyroads · March 1, 2005

It sounds like that book will help. Untill it arrives, I think a few might chime in here, just to whet your whistle....

The "f" stuff is aperture. It's actually an incremental measurement of the size of the "hole" inside your lens. It's what allows light to enter, and how much. Your 50mm 1.8 is what would be considered a fairly "fast" lens, explnation to follow. The "1.8" refers to that "f" stuff, more correctly, it's aperture (also called f stop). 1.8 means that's the most light it can ever let it, F1.8. The "smaller" or lower the number the BIGGER the hole front. F1.8 is more light then F5.6. Ok? Now, there's a good start. Here's where it starts to get trickier, and much more fun. You can use aperture to your creative ends, ever heard the term "Depth of field?" It means the physical depth of viable focus area, meaning how much of your shot is in focus, concerning depth (releative distance from the camera). Lower aperture numbers (such as your 50mm 1.8 being set wide open, to F1.8) yeild a very shallow depth of field (or dof), maybe as little as an inch! Meaning, from what you focused on, roughly 3/4 an inch behind it and maybe 1/4 inch in front of it (your focal point) will be in focus. From those points, i gradually softens to full blur. What if an inch isn't enough dof, you may ask? And fairly so, as many time's it can be awesome, and other times much more is required. The "higher" your Fstop, your aperture, the more DOF you have! There are charts for this online, give google a shot.... Now, to mix it up more. Ovbiosuly, a "higher" fstop will not let as much light in, as it closes your camera's "hole" in the lens, so what to do? This is where a longer shutter is required. A shutter at 1/100th lets less light in (because it's not open as long...) then a shutter of 1/60th. And 1/40th lets more light in the 1/60th. Make sense? On fully manual mode, those two figures, those to variables, must work together. And you're the one who sets them to do so!

Aperture priority mode may be easier to shoot on in cases like this, it lets you choose your DOF, but the camera auto picks the shutter, which means less chance of goofing multiple exposures till you find your good 'en.

Hope that wasn't too basic, nothing implied by that. You're photo of the girl is very cool. Best advice anyone could ever offer is for you to shoot shoot shoot!! Shoot as much as you can as often as you can!!

melissa6631 · March 1, 2005

ridetwistyroads wrote:

It sounds like that book will help. Untill it arrives, I think a few might chime in here, just to whet your whistle....

The "f" stuff is aperture. It's actually an incremental measurement of the size of the "hole" inside your lens. It's what allows light to enter, and how much. Your 50mm 1.8 is what would be considered a fairly "fast" lens, explnation to follow. The "1.8" refers to that "f" stuff, more correctly, it's aperture (also called f stop). 1.8 means that's the most light it can ever let it, F1.8. The "smaller" or lower the number the BIGGER the hole front. F1.8 is more light then F5.6. Ok? Now, there's a good start. Here's where it starts to get trickier, and much more fun. You can use aperture to your creative ends, ever heard the term "Depth of field?" It means the physical depth of viable focus area, meaning how much of your shot is in focus, concerning depth (releative distance from the camera). Lower aperture numbers (such as your 50mm 1.8 being set wide open, to F1.8) yeild a very shallow depth of field (or dof), maybe as little as an inch! Meaning, from what you focused on, roughly 3/4 an inch behind it and maybe 1/4 inch in front of it (your focal point) will be in focus. From those points, i gradually softens to full blur. What if an inch isn't enough dof, you may ask? And fairly so, as many time's it can be awesome, and other times much more is required. The "higher" your Fstop, your aperture, the more DOF you have! There are charts for this online, give google a shot.... Now, to mix it up more. Ovbiosuly, a "higher" fstop will not let as much light in, as it closes your camera's "hole" in the lens, so what to do? This is where a longer shutter is required. A shutter at 1/100th lets less light in (because it's not open as long...) then a shutter of 1/60th. And 1/40th lets more light in the 1/60th. Make sense? On fully manual mode, those two figures, those to variables, must work together. And you're the one who sets them to do so! Aperture priority mode may be easier to shoot on in cases like this, it lets you choose your DOF, but the camera auto picks the shutter, which means less chance of goofing multiple exposures till you find your good 'en.

Hope that wasn't too basic, nothing implied by that. You're photo of the girl is very cool. Best advice anyone could ever offer is for you to shoot shoot shoot!! Shoot as much as you can as often as you can!!

Oh gosh I LOVE basic! Be as basic and real as you can be.

For instance.. 5.6 makes your photo darker?? 1.8 lets you have good light in dark areas? 5.6 you would want to use in bright light? Am I catching on?
I'd like to know how to set the shutter speed on the rebel. Also, I found I'm almost always shooting on 100ISO. Is there a default? I mean if you had to pick one speed what speed do I want?

dkoyanagi · March 1, 2005

Hi Melissa

Here is the f-stop scale

f/1
f/1.4
f/2
f/2.8
f/4
f/5.6
f/8
f/11
f/16
f/22
f/32
f/45
f/64

Each step on the scale lets in half as much light as the previous step. So f/1.4 lets in half as much light as f/1, f/2 lets in half as much light as f/1.4 and so on.

How does this relate to shutter speed?

Well, suppose you have a correct exposure at f/4 and 1/100 sec. If you decreased your aperture to f/5.6 what shutter speed would you need to get the same exposure? f/5.6 lets in half as much light as f/4. That means you have to leave the shutter open twice as long to get the same exposure. So at f/5.6 you would need to set the shutter speed to 1/50 sec to get the same exposure.

Suppose on the other hand you want to go from f/4, 1/100s to 1/200 sec. What f-stop would you need? 1/200 sec is half the exposure of 1/100 sec. That means you have to let in twice as much light to get the same exposure. So at 1/200sec you have to increase your aperture to f/2.8

Why would you choose one shutter speed over another, or one f/stop over another?

Suppose you're shooting a moving subject. If you want to freeze the action you'd choose a fast shutter speed, but you'd have to open up the aperture to let in more light. However, a wider aperture also leads to a shallower depth of field. You've probably seen sports photos of athletes frozen in mid air with the the background out of focus. Fast shutter speed and wide aperture will do that.

If you want to increase your depth of field you'd choose a smaller aperture and a slower shutter speed.

How do you know when you have the right combination of aperture and shutter speed?

You could take a test shot, review and adjust. You could use a light meter. If your camera has live histogram you could use that:

1. if the histogram is too far to the left it means your exposure is too dark. Open up the aperture or use a slower shutter speed.
2. if the histogram is too far to the right it means you exposure is too bright. Close down the aperture or use a faster shutter speed.

How does ISO relate to all this?

ISO 200 is twice as sensitive to light as ISO 100; ISO 400 is twice as sensitive to light as ISO 200 and so on.

Suppose you have a proper exposure at ISO 100, f/4.0 and 1/100sec. If you set the camera to ISO 200 you can set the camera to f/5.6 & 1/100 sec, or f/4.0 and 1/200 sec an get the same exposure.

Why would you change the ISO setting?

Suppose you're in a low light situation. You've got the lens at it's widest setting and the shutter speed as slow as you'd dare take it (any slower and the picture will turn out blury because of movement, etc), but your exposure is still too dark. You can boost the ISO to get a better exposure.

Hope this helps.

LiquidOps · March 1, 2005

melissa6631 wrote:

Oh by the way, I just ordered Undertanding Exposure by Bryan Peterson and it should be here today or tomorrow.I'm excited. I'm told it will help alot!

Has anyone else read this book before? Is it recommended? Thanks

With this forum, who needs books

you guys rock

BridgeCity · March 1, 2005

This thread = printed and stuck on my wall...

Excellent Info!

Kagan · March 1, 2005

Thanks
I dont know if it helped Melissa but it helped me a ton! Im printing it as we speak!

Angelo · March 1, 2005

a different twist on the challenges?
wow, great instructional. thanks guys.

what if a moderator created a test for us newbies in which the moderator instructs we all take a specific picture with specific guidelines (ex: EXIF) and see what everyone turns out? would this be impossible?

Wolf · March 1, 2005

Good idea!
A kind of a "class" type situation. I think that is a great idea. Photos could be critiqued by "class" members and a new "newbie" challenge is born. Sounds interesting and could be quite fun! Just an idea....

BridgeCity · March 1, 2005

I agree! It would be fun to design the picture around the EXIF instead of designing an EXIF for a picture!

Steve Cavigliano · March 1, 2005

Hi Melissa :-)
I really learned alot from this site:

http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm

It explains the different values of lighting and the speeds and apertures that work best with each. There are even some charts you can print out and take with you.

Sid's suggestion of metering off her face is excellent. It works even better if you have spot metering, but Canon decided we didn't need it

I would, however, suggest that you use center-weighted metering (the Rebel has that option, right?).

Sid's suggestion is based on the Zone System developed by some bloke named Ansel

You might find this article interesting:

http://www.normankoren.com/zonesystem.html

Or this one, by our own Shay Stephens

http://www.digitalsecrets.net/Sony/AdvancedKnow.html

Not to worry Melissa, it does get easier

Steve

wxwax · March 1, 2005

Woo! Great links, Steve.

fish · March 1, 2005

Yes, actually it gets a LOT harder before it gets easier. Be one with the force and the camera. Take it one step at a time. Make mistakes, but learn from them. You've got a fine start. Keep going.

melissa6631 · March 1, 2005

fish wrote:

Yes, actually it gets a LOT harder before it gets easier. Be one with the force and the camera. Take it one step at a time. Make mistakes, but learn from them. You've got a fine start. Keep going.

A fine start? A FINE START? This is what you call a fine start? HA!

Kidding

I'm convinced this is damn near impossible. I tried to play with the exposure after reading the Bryan Peterson book for about 5 minutes--- I didn't get much. http://goooz.smugmug.com/gallery/418153

They are horrible:uhoh and i'm SO upset that I didn't get those cute pics of my daughter and son *Sigh*

ridetwistyroads · March 1, 2005

melissa6631 wrote:

A fine start? A FINE START? This is what you call a fine start? HA! Kidding

I'm convinced this is damn near impossible. I tried to play with the exposure after reading the Bryan Peterson book for about 5 minutes--- I didn't get much. http://goooz.smugmug.com/gallery/418153

They are horrible:uhoh and i'm SO upset that I didn't get those cute pics of my daughter and son *Sigh*

'd you want to work with one? Let's grab an example, I hope you don't mind....

Date Taken:1980-01-01 00:00:28Date Digitized:1980-01-01 00:00:28Date Modified:1980-01-01 00:00:28Make:CanonModel: Canon EOS DIGITAL REBEL Size: 3072x2048 Bytes: 1836824 Aperture: f/5.6 ISO: 200 Focal Length: 50mm (guess: 53mm in 35mm) Exposure Time: 0.8s (8/10)JPEG Quality:3Exposure Bias:0ExposureMode:1White Balance:manualSensingMethod:One-chip color sensorColorSpace:sRGB

The subject appears blurred, first. Dissapointing, yes, but don't get to down on yourself just yet. This stuff takes time! Why do you suppose it's blurred? Your shutter was too slow. So we've got to speed that up. First step, run that aperture alllll the way down to 1.8 on your lens. That'll brighten things up, allowing a faster (less chance of blur!) shutter speed.

Second thing to look at.
Your camera should have white balance presets. I'm not a drebel owner and don't know it super super well, I'd think it would have one for incandescent light. Setting to that preset from "auto white balance" or "Auto wb" will improve that reddish look. Colors should appear more natural.

Third thing to look at.
Are your familier with your ISO settings? It's a film speed equivalent. You're shot was at iso200, I'd guess that lowest on the camera. Nothing wrong with that, it's great for tons of applications. Specificlly ones with more available light. You don't seem to have much of that (available light) in that photo, so I might usggest upping your iso. I'd suspect the drebel would be quite clean near and past iso400, some camera's get "noisy" at really high iso's. The higher the iso, the faster the "film" speed, so you can use an even quicker shutter. (less chance of motion blur)

Above all, don't get discouraged. It takes many many shots and lots of time. And by many shots, I mean many many BAD shots!

It takes lots of bad shots to find your good ones, especially when you're learning your basics!! Just keep shooting, don't let it get you down!

Angelo · March 1, 2005

Steve: Thanks for the great links.

ridetwistyroads · March 1, 2005

I meant to add, and forgot amung all the tech dribble....

Great action in the moment with that shot, I love the expression on his face!! I can almost hear him grinning on purpose!!

Andy · March 1, 2005

this thread should be required reading for everyone. n00bs can learn some really good stuff, and old hands can learn how to best help folks.

excellent thread!

missy!

Andy · March 1, 2005

a little different approach
missy

another approach

for the types of shooting you do, missy, i'd suggest shooting in aperture priority mode (av) or shutter priority mode (tv).

nail the relationships of f-stop, shutter speed, and iso. learn it, understand how they work with each other. then, choose av (aperture priority) or tv (shutter priority) on your camera, pick an iso, and shoot away

manual is nice, but unnecessary for you to get your end results (great candids of your beautiful kids).

regarding your question on iso - here's the simple answer:

shoot in iso 100 when you can get away with it. but as the light gets less (darker) you'll have to bump up the iso to get exposures you can handhold... you need to make the camera *more* sensitive to the (limited) light that's there.... after a short while, you'll quickly learn when you need iso 400, 800 or even 1600

trust me!

ps:

welcome back to dgrin, i'm glad you took me up on my offer

melissa6631 · March 2, 2005

andy wrote:

for the types of shooting you do, missy, i'd suggest shooting in aperture priority mode (av) or shutter priority mode (tv).

Do you know Troy??

He told me this a few months ago

I don't know why I forgot. The thing is, I forget what I can adjust. I've just learned how to adjust the exposure. I have to say I'm just now shamelessy "RTFM"

Andy · March 2, 2005

melissa6631 wrote:

Do you know Troy?? He told me this a few months ago I don't know why I forgot. The thing is, I forget what I can adjust. I've just learned how to adjust the exposure. I have to say I'm just now shamelessy "RTFM"

missy, troy (windoze) was a student of mine

ask him, how i taught him to hold his camera

melissa6631 · March 2, 2005

andy wrote:

missy, troy (windoze) was a student of mine ask him, how i taught him to hold his camera

Haha! Do I really want to know? I mean I know how he holds .. never mind. Kidding.
Here's another quick question. You're a fabulous photographer. I'm sure you've shot more photos than days i've been alive.. How do you organize them? What is your method? What also is your upload/print ratio? I mean I find that I take about 300-500 pictures on average a month. (totally guessing) and I'm printing maybe 6?

I'm obviously not printing enough. And I only print at home. I guess i should have smugmug print me out one of every photo or at least order a CD.... Anyhow i'm off track now... Just thought I'd ask because my photos are organized like this... "March 2005" "February 2005" lol You get the point.

wxwax · March 2, 2005

You may be printing too much. I'm lucky if I get one really good shot out of a day's shooting. It's so easy to fall in love with one's shots, and find excuses for them. It's hard to be dispassionate and critical. But that's the only way to weed out the mediocre, and find the few deserving images. It's a process that helps one become more discriminating, and eventually a better shooter.

melissa6631 · March 2, 2005

wxwax wrote:

It's so easy to fall in love with one's shots, and find excuses for them. It's hard to be dispassionate and critical. But that's the only way to weed out the mediocre, and find the few deserving images. It's a process that helps one become more discriminating, and eventually a better shooter.

I print out pictures because.. they are my kids. I want memories

I dont need a wall of portraits.. but i do need birthday parties, school events, etc I have 5 kids

Snuffy · March 2, 2005

I just figured how to post a pic today!

Now, after reading this thread my spirits are high. Can't wait to make many mistakes with my new digicam.

I also would like to see a " school " hosted by the experts. The knowledge i read here is impressive and skeery for this N0ob. Keep it coming!

BridgeCity · March 2, 2005

Never feel like you are in over your head, no one judges you on your photography talent, and there are really NO bad pictures! Don't be afraid to ask questions, but run a search through the forums before you post. Many of the same questions have been asked and answered here and there is a WEALTH of information at your fingertips!

Welcome to Dgrin! I hope you enjoy it as much as I do

Snuffy wrote:

I just figured how to post a pic today! Now, after reading this thread my spirits are high. Can't wait to make many mistakes with my new digicam.

I also would like to see a " school " hosted by the experts. The knowledge i read here is impressive and skeery for this N0ob. Keep it coming!

Angelo · March 2, 2005

Snuffy wrote:

...I also would like to see a " school " hosted by the experts. The knowledge i read here is impressive and skeery for this N0ob. Keep it coming!<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/6029383/emoji/thumb.gif" border="0" alt="" >

<paste>

a different twist on the challenges?

wow, great instructional. thanks guys.

what if a moderator created a test for us newbies in which the moderator instructs we all take a specific picture with specific guidelines (ex: EXIF) and see what everyone turns out? would this be impossible?
__________________
.
Peace,
...Angelo
cameras don't shoot people......... www.angelo.smugmug.com

wxwax · March 2, 2005

Snuffy wrote:

I just figured how to post a pic today! Now, after reading this thread my spirits are high. Can't wait to make many mistakes with my new digicam.

I also would like to see a " school " hosted by the experts. The knowledge i read here is impressive and skeery for this N0ob. Keep it coming!

Snuffy, check out the Hall of Wisdom. Lots of photography threads in there, just pick your way through the Photoshop ones.

VivianG · March 7, 2005

What a great thread
Melissa, I feel your pain lol. For me going from p&s to dslr is an amazing journey. I've lost my ability to take a picture because I'm thinking about the settings on the camera all the time. That being said for the newbiews this is a great thread in understanding the correlation between aperture, shutter speed and ISO (printed out and stuck it to my elbow lol). I have yet taken a picture that I'm happy with. I took this shot in very low light, in manual mode, aperture at 3.5, shutter at 1/250 manual focus, ISO 400 and I'm still out of focus. What did I forget??!!

I'm trying to learn manual, does it get worse before better?

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