What is more important idea or technique?

Shay Stephens

An interesting PM came my way that wondered just what is going on. It went something like this:

I know that we all have different tastes and the judges are allowed to choose whatever they want for whatever reason, but when a techically poor photo gets through or a photograph that has been PS'ed to death (and even then it's technically poor), it is really hard to know what it is that we are striving for. I am being left with the impression that the idea behind the photo is more important that the actual quality of the photo itself.

And this is a great point to have realized. Indeed the idea or message of the photo is more important than the technical merits of the photo. Look at high end magazines and their ads. You will no doubt be able to spot many that are grainy, blurry, or otherwise less than technically perfect. But the idea or mood that the advertiser wants to convey will likely come through loud and clear.

Mission accomplished!

Too often we loose sight of what makes a photograph work and instead focus on the things that are quantifiable, focus, noise, perfect color balance, etc. We loose sight that what makes a photograph work is not quantifiable but emotional. How do you measure emotion, mood, or message?

You can't, that is a subjective determination by those judging the work. But it is precisely that that determines if the photo has done it's job or not. By the end of this contest early next year, I hope that many will have come to the realization that content is king. Yes I hope the contest also helps photographers be able to increase their image quality too, but content comes first, image quality second.

All things being equal, two similar photos with great content, but one has poor image quality that is not complimentary to the content will be skipped over most likely in favor of the photo with better image quality or image quality that compliments the content. So don't ignore the image quality, but put it in its proper place.

If you disgree and think I am blowing hot air, let me know :wink

jwear

If you disgree and think I am blowing hot air, let me know __________________
do not light a match only kidding what you say makes sense but it still does not sit well . Thanks for the time on CC on shots from before

fashiznitsngrins

This is very enlightening and makes sense, but might have served many better had we known this from the start. Better late than never, I suppose. I am not too sure that I agree with this philosophy in a "photography" contest as one would tend to think that would lean toward technical merit. Personally, I can't seem to get passed a technically poor photo even if the idea is there - it just doesn't work for me (but I realize that we are all different). I have learned so much on the technical side since beginning this competition, and even though there is plenty of room for improvement, I am now trying to focus more on the aesthetical or "meaning" side of it. I'll be interested to see what other fellow members' thoughts are...

Richard

Hmmm...my take is a little different. I agree that content is king, but I am assuming that the real competition only is among photos with excellent technique to start with. Technique is a craft that anyone can learn with dedication, instruction and time. Creativity is less common, and art is rarer still. So, yeah, a perfectly composed, exposed and processed image may be sterile, but a great idea that is badly executed is just embarrassing.

Regards,

imax

This is going to be a never ending battle for truth justice and the American way.

In the meantime at least for me, a photograph has to make me think and feel something. There have been numerous technically wonerful images but when looking at them I feel nothing, Nada, Zip. Then you look at an image that isn't technically perfect but yet the message it is trying to portray screams out at you, in my opinion that will win out every time.

Nw you also have to realize that each judge is also going to have an opinion on this as well. Some weeks you might get a judge who wants the photograph technically perfect like the one who wrote the private message, others you might get one like me who wants to see an image scream and jump out at you.

So it really is up to each of us to do the best that we can, learn from each challenge, and hopefully one day look back on this without negative thoughts on how it should have been done, but how much we got out of the experience. Because that is what this is all about.... Well also the cash but we won't talk about that.


Joe

Tentacion

Wow Tough question...

I will say that I believe, both are equally important, it just depends where, and how the photos are being incorporated, and how they are being used for instance:

Glamour, Hobby, Product, etc. Advertisement
Photo contest
Album
National Geographics
Bird Mag

For Glamour I think you could get away with blurry shots, grainy etc..but the MESSAGE has to be there for the public...what exactly on the photo is being enhanced technically so that it appeals to the public enough, so that they will buy the product.

where as for a Bird Mag

You don't want to use a photo that is NOT technically sound..as these photos are for numerous reasons, alot of bird watchers buy the mag, cuz they want to see the "detail"

What can you say...a "Never Ending Story" in photography..

JMO

Donna

Greensquared

This is a confusing debate, but I truly think that there is only one answer in my books. The winner of Last Photographer Standing OUGHT to excel technically, both in camera and post-processing, AND in content and composition.

I can see where you are coming from Shay, that if it is technical versus content, then content outweighes in the real world. However, this is a contest to determine the best of the best. The best to me doesn't make compromises, they do it all. Now, if there isn't a single one among those contending who has that calibre of image production and we do have to compromise in one area or another, then I guess it'll just be the best of a good batch.

There are many ways to produce an image with infinite lighting, content, composition and post-processing options. Compositing images is one of those options that can be used to produce an excellent image, but if you're going to do it, it should be very well done, seamless, an art perfected in itself. If you are not there with your abilities, you can still give it a try, just know that others will and do see your imperfections...like attempting to get away with out of focus subjects, poor blending, or adding grain to cover up the fact that your light was too low and then calling it an artistic choice. You may still get through because your idea was great, but don't expect the flaws to go unnoticed.

I guess what I'm saying that all of us should be doing our very best to produce the best shot we can to have the best chance we can. That guarantees nothing when it comes to judging, other than the fact that you can move on well, knowing you tried YOUR BEST. When I fudge in a certain area, get lazy with something, I'm always the one kicking myself way harder than any judge not giving my image points. So while I'd love to win anything in this competition, being true to myself and putting my best effort forward is really what gets me going.

Shay Stephens

Greensquared wrote:

This is a confusing debate, but I truly think that there is only one answer in my books. The winner of Last Photographer Standing OUGHT to excel technically, both in camera and post-processing, AND in content and composition.

Excellent point!

Gary Glass

I think that a related question is this one: Beauty or meaning? Competitions generally tend to become beauty contests. But the best art is often not beautiful. I've only participated in one round, and the shot I settled on for that round was not as "pretty" as others I might have pulled out of my bag of tricks. But I went with the one that I personally felt was my best effort, despite my concern that an unflattering shot would be handicapped. In the preview comments only one or two people seemed to appreciate the shot. Happily, it performed better with the judges, and I managed to place. In another thread we debated the "fairness" of the judging. It has been suggested that a popular vote would be more "fair." In my opinion, with such an approach, pretty pictures would be more likely to overwhelm more challenging shots.

Pat664422

I'm kind of surprised to see responses favoring the technical aspects of images compared to the content of the image. In photography contests that just have categories like "architecture" or "wildlife" or "landscapes", I would agree that the focus would probably be on technical ability.

This contest to me has always seemed to be focused on the content - we are given constrating themes that we can shoot one of or both. Doing both is discouraged unless you think of a "really good idea." The themes are often leave a lot of room for interpretation - and there usually is some discussion about the results of the contest whether photos did/did not fit the theme. Whenever the word "art" has been used on this forum, I generally take that to refer to people interpreting the theme, not whether they were techincally perfect or not. A great example of this for me, is PaulThomasMckee's entry for the Explosive round - he enterred a picture of a flower that round that nailed the theme in my opinion. In this contest, I would think creativity with the theme, i.e. content, should score higher with the judges so long as the technical aspects of the photo don't get into the way of communicating the content. But I also would think of course, that being techinically perfrect in the execution of your ideas would only help.

Green2

If an image does not convey the message or invoke the desire emotion is it worth the time it took to create it?

Does that product photo make you want whatever it is - right now?

I think that this is a good article on the subject:
http://www.naturephotographers.net/articles0507/gt0507-1.html

All art is subjective. Who would you say is the best artist between Da Vinci, Renoir, Michelangelo, or << insert your favorite artist here >>?

I am confident that someone else may answer differently than you did.

LiquidAir

Borrowed from a thread some time back:

Shay Stephans wrote:

Art is all about copying. Art builds on those who have come before. There is no way to make a rule that prevents copying. The world copies. We all copy ideas we think are good. All of us. Civilization would crumble if the ability to copy were denied. Babies would learn nothing, students would go nowhere, all would crumble.

Your task is to do it better than anyone else can. If you come up with an idea that is very easy for someone to copy, how great of an idea is it? If you come up with a great idea that is hard for people to copy, why would you worry about copying? If you are worried about who thought of the idea "first", then make sure you post your photo early before anyone else thinks of the idea.

If someone copies your idea, but does it twice as good as you did it, who is the better photographer? The one who can think of original ideas, but can't execute them, or the one who has no ideas but can turn one into a rockin' photo?

The best and most well rounded photographer would have both qualities, the ability to come up with "original" ideas, and the ability to turn those ideas into photos that a casual photographer could never touch with a ten foot zoom lens.

To win the Last Photographer Standing contest, you are going to have to be a great photographer. The qualifying rounds are the first sifter, the semifinals are a fine filter, and the Grand Finale is going to put great photographers head to head.

So use these qualifying rounds to train yourself, to learn, to grow. If you are weak in one area, use this time to strengthen that. If you can shoot circles around anyone else, but have no clue on coming up with an idea, start learning to think creatively, you are going to need it. If you can think anyone under the table, but can shoot a frame, then get cracking on developing your camera skills, composition, content, exposure.

Become a great photographer!

Ideas are important, but we also have to be judged on how effectively we communicated the idea through a photograph. As I see it, photographic technique is facility with the tools used in photography to express ideas. Great technique without an idea is wasted. However, a photograph of a great idea is not necessarily a great photgraph. Great photographs are great ideas expressed through great technique.

The Mona Lisa is a great idea expressed in oils. I took a photograph of it when I was in the Louvre (which I haven't bothered to scan). No matter how good a reproduction I managed to capture, my photo is still just that, a reproduction of an idea expressed in oils. To create a great photograph, I think the idea must to expressed through photographic technique. As such, technique must be taken into account when measuring the merit of a photograph.

Greensquared

LiquidAir wrote:

Great technique without an idea is wasted.

Okay if this is referring to this contest, fair enough, but in the world of commercial photography, if you can't excellently execute a product shot on white seamless with perfect dof of whatever you are handed, then you may very well starve. Product shots are good money, as are art reproduction shots, neither of which hold an ounce of creativity. I would hardly call this a "wasted" ability though. You will get a name as a good photographer and get repeat work. If you start with this ability and build creativity upon it, then a career has every possibilty to flourish.

If you are in it just as a hobby, as are most of us here, then I suppose you have every right to say the photo can be technically poor because you don't have a boss to dispute you. Ask a bride "hey, do you mind of you're slightly out of focus or overexposed with no detail in your white dress, but don't worry, I'll get some creative shots" and see what response you get. If you don't ask but just present them with slightly off shots, most will still say they are happy because:
1) they don't feel their qualified to judge technical aspect
2) their still riding the wedding emotional rollercoaster
3) they know a reshoot isn't possible anyway

Yes, technically poor yet creative shots are getting through the qualifying rounds, so mainly what that tells me here is that the people judging are typically not honed, professional commercial photograhers. Either that or they are seeing this contest as a "creativity" contest and voting heavily on that merit. They are not given guidelines as far as how to vote and so may go with what moves them and not "would you hire this photograher for your multi-million dollar client".

I still stand by saying that awesome photographer will undisputably possess all possible skills...it'll be what separates them in the long run.

Nikolai

Oh come on
I apologize for the cliche, but this issue IMHO is akin to asking "who's more important: mother or father?"...
There is no right answer to that, but in most cases if both parents are good chances are the family is ok, too:-)
Peace!

Greensquared

Nikolai wrote:

I apologize for the cliche, but this issue IMHO is akin to asking "who's more important: mother or father?"...
There is no right answer to that, but in most cases if both parents are good chances are the family is ok, too:-)
Peace!

Love the analogy!:D

peterst6906

Great analogy Nikolai and similar sentiments to my own.

In my view, neither is more important, both are equally important as a general opinion.

I do think that in some cases, a killer idea can overcome some problems with technique, but the image will never be as good as the killer idea combined with killer technique as well.

For me, the idea is just the start of the process. The inspiration to create an image leads to creativity and together that leads to the final image, but before the final image there is the practice/technique.

All of them are important as is all of the experience the photographer has gained from earlier photos, because it's continued refinement of work that improves both the ideas and technique.

Regards,

Peter

Tentacion

Nicely expressed Nik in 10 words or less...Like I said in my previous thread posted here it is a "never ending story"....and I will continue to say....It all depends on How and What your using your photography for...Incorporation and Implementation, but moreso it depends on who is viewing the photos at the time:

"One Person's Treasure is Another Person's Poison"...I guess the same goes with Photography.

BistiArt

Impact V Other

Shay Stephens wrote:

Indeed the idea or message of the photo is more important than the technical merits of the photo.

Weighing in, I've recently published several posts concerning methods New Mexico State fair photography judges used in determining photo qualifications.

Majestic Blessing was shot early evening at Canyonlands National Park, Utah, in May. When entered in a June annual banquet contest of recent photos, after some Photoshop massaging and dry matting, it was voted Members Choice-Landscapes. Now bear in mind, only members of the camera club could vote. Of some 200 members, only about 40 regularly compete.
Through a stroke of luck, a call to Canyonlands Natural History Association in Moab, Utah, on another matter the following week, landed a smugmug image from my awards Gallery in front of the director.
They promptly began to negotiate for a large print on the wall of their new building to be opened the first week of November, 2007.

Two months later, the same Majestic Blessing had been matted again at eight different size for the New Mexico State fair. Over 16 days of the State fair, while in the Creative Arts Building, it again received People's Choice-Scenics. In that world, the word scenics is equivalent to landscapes.
This time, the award was from our general public: ranging from kids to seniors, photographers to the everyday man-on-the-street.

During public viewing, the lead judge, Leroy Perea, came to the State fair several different days. His intent: answer general questions from people who walked through the photography gallery.
I was fortunate to be able to visit with Leroy for several hours concerning my images. He would hold one up to the light, tell me what he thought they needed in addition, then show me by illustrating other images, how I might achieve such a new goal.
Beyond that, Leroy wanted to work on the CNHA image; he felt the rainbow should touch ground at a third point. We discussed matting techniques, then he showed me a way to create that third point balance.
Leroy also had a number of things to say about matting; we discussed differences between classic gallery matting and avant-garde or think out-of-the-box matting. For smugmug, I chose avant-garde. For CNHA, most advice has been - use classic matting and a professional frame.









It's worth noting that of the four images I submitted to the state fair, Majestic Blessing was not my top ranked image. Nor was it among those images ranked as excellent; it was only considered above average. Rather, in spite of what some might think of as potentially poor composition, clearly, the emotional impact is strong, direct, and appealing.
Shay uses the terms 'idea or message'. The judges use the terms impact and composition.

From what people personally told me, they love the feeling and color - the message, as Shay puts it! So, I've come to realize, it rates very high in a number of different arenas for emotional impact...

saurora

Nikolai wrote:

I apologize for the cliche, but this issue IMHO is akin to asking "who's more important: mother or father?"...
There is no right answer to that, but in most cases if both parents are good chances are the family is ok, too:-)
Peace!

Lots of great responses here on this subject. I had to dwell on this for a while! It is obvious one can have a very engaging, saleable, contest-winning image without it being technically superior. And just the opposite is true. The technically superior can be ho-hum. I believe all of us strive to achieve both. So I decided to ask myself the question "If I could be either creative or technically superior, which would I choose?". Then the answer became quite clear to me.....I would much rather be a creative person and able to capture and/or create a compelling mage that would speak to the viewer.

That being said, as far as the LPS challenge goes, I believe in the end the winner will excel in both. While each challenge ends with many people throwing their hands up in the air over the judges decisions (What were the judges thinking???) I think the way this contest has been approached, with so many levels and judges with various opinions, the process will eventually sift out (to use Shay's terminology) the very best amongst us. If there is any 'edge' at all, my feeling would be that it would lean towards creative vs. technical. In other words, you have to reach the viewer first before they will even examine your technical prowess. I believe the edge to be with creativity, and so Shay, in answer to your original question, I would say the idea or message is more important in most instances. That can be kind of daunting to think about for those of us attempting to be the very best we can be technically, but failing to unleash the creative juices in our work.

HoofClix

Taking the risk that my comments will just be paraphrasing of the very good points already made..... I did also have to dwell on this a bit..

I will make my case that the idea is more important than the technical presentation, but that it's not overwhelmingly so. Even with all of the so-called "technical" photos that we've seen win, and by that I mean the ones that are composites, the image first must make it's overall impact before we get into picking away at the technical prowess, in order to win.

That's what it takes to win here, in the LPS, as opposed to in other contests that are out there. Bisti has given us all a great look in to the New Mexico State Fair, and while it is comforting to know that there would be some method applied to judging if Joe were to be a judge, the LPS is different. It is more like speed chess in that we get only two weeks so plan, execute, and present, whereas other contests have different themes that must be met. Most other contests out there are the type that says, put your best work up here from forever, not just the past two weeks...

Though I certainly love winning, and would love to get all the way to the last stop on this train, I certainly hope that whoever wins this contest shows unequivocally the very best of both sides of this question.

VisualXpressions

It's Shay's contest... So if he says it's so it must be so! rofl idea... no, technique... no wait, idea... I'm so confused?!?!

I try not to dwell on such high minded ideas and simply execute the shot to the best of my ability... Hell, some shots are accidents...

When I shot my current entry I was on vacation taking "post card" shots of lighthouses... while I was looking for a different angle on one of the lighthouses I noticed the sun reflection, which triggered my thought about the current contest... no planning, not much post processing, simply seeing an opportunity and going for it... weather it conveys the idea well enough will be for the judges to decide, I'm sure the technical merrits will also be taken into consideration... which one out weighs the other, I have no idea... It is all very subjective...

Winston

LiquidAir

Greensquared wrote:

Okay if this is referring to this contest, fair enough, but in the world of commercial photography, if you can't excellently execute a product shot on white seamless with perfect dof of whatever you are handed, then you may very well starve. Product shots are good money, as are art reproduction shots, neither of which hold an ounce of creativity. I would hardly call this a "wasted" ability though. You will get a name as a good photographer and get repeat work. If you start with this ability and build creativity upon it, then a career has every possibilty to flourish.

Maybe "idea" is too strong a word. I think as a photographer you need to choose your techical decisions to achieve a clear goal and your technique should be evaluated in that context. The fact that most catalog look similar doesn't mean they don't start with an idea of what the catalog should look like. While many product shots are done as you say, there are plenty of exceptions. The North Face calaog, for instance, might be quite dissapointed with a shot of their fancy new camping stove against a white seamless when they were expecting something more contextual. That said, you are right that shooting products against a white seamless is so integral a part of the vocabulary of commercial photography that anyone thinking of working in that world ought to be able to execute it flawlessly.

As to Winston's point: For any contest, the person who fronts the prize money gets to decide how the judging is done.

urbanaries

:snore

Shay Stephens

:poke

urbanaries wrote:

:snore

urbanaries

Shay Stephens wrote:

:poke

'

*springs to life* huh? what? did I miss something new?

fashiznitsngrins

urbanaries wrote:

:snore

Hmmm, it would appear that some of you are bored out there and think that this is yet again another flogging of a dead horse show... personally, I like the fact that this forum is "hotting up" again. It gives me more inspiration and ideas. I suppose that just shows that some of us are still a "work in progress". It got pretty quiet around here for awhile and I would prefer to learn something new, even if it's in a debate fashion than to check in, day after day, and wonder off to other sites as there was nothing here to ponder - just my 2 cents...

Greensquared

fashiznitsngrins wrote:

Hmmm, it would appear that some of you are bored out there and think that this is yet again another flogging of a dead horse show... personally, I like the fact that this forum is "hotting up" again. It gives me more inspiration and ideas. I suppose that just shows that some of us are still a "work in progress". It got pretty quiet around here for awhile and I would prefer to learn something new, even if it's in a debate fashion than to check in, day after day, and wonder off to other sites as there was nothing here to ponder - just my 2 cents...

Shay Stephens

urbanaries wrote:

'

*springs to life* huh? what? did I miss something new?

hehehe wake up, this isn't a library!

Wait, that is what Apu says when someone reads a magazine. D'oh!

Tentacion

Hmmm..

"Are you being Snarky???" I also like...
"Are we having a Bad Hair Day"...or the best one.....
"Excuse me for breathing the same air" comes to mind..


Sometimes ya gotta beat a dead horse, cuz some people get it right away "Rare" and some don't "Well Done"...

urbanaries

Tentacion wrote:

Hmmm..

"Are you being Snarky???" I also like...
"Are we having a Bad Hair Day"...or the best one.....
"Excuse me for breathing the same air" comes to mind..


Sometimes ya gotta beat a dead horse, cuz some people get it right away "Rare" and some don't "Well Done"...

heh, just trying to bring some levity...as i started to read the replies (deja vu!) my eyes started to gloss over and the Peanuts teacher voice started in the distance....:rutt:

sorry, as you were....

Greensquared

urbanaries wrote:

heh, just trying to bring some levity...as i started to read the replies (deja vu!) my eyes started to gloss over and the Peanuts teacher voice started in the distance....:rutt:

sorry, as you were....

Huh, as I saw it, Shay posed a question and we were free to respond with our thoughts. I apologize if I bored you. Next time I'll attempt to put more witty sarcasm in my replies for entertainment value.

Emily:deadhorse