Can I use EZprint.icc as my workspace in Photoshop
net1994
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When working on a photo in PSCS2, I open it up in sRGB and then soft proofing the picture using 'View> Proof Setup' But when I do this there is a difference between the finished photo I want to save, when I apply the proofing. Can I have them match? Whats the point of working on a single photo in Photoshop and it looks how I want it, and then proof and its looks different.
Is there a way I can have ezprint 'always on?' So I will always see what ezprint should print out, instead of just checking at the end of the work flow.
Is there a way I can have ezprint 'always on?' So I will always see what ezprint should print out, instead of just checking at the end of the work flow.
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http://www.paintbypixels.com
When softproofing in Photoshop, I presume that the "Device to Simulate" field is set to the "ezprint" ICC profile. "Preserve RGB Numbers" should be inactive/off/unchecked. "Rendering Intent" would need to match what the person doing the final conversion/print is using, my guess here is perceptual/image rendering intent, this can have a huge factor in results (Relative Colorimetric vs. Perceptual rendering). I am not going to get into the simulate stock/ink settings at this point. I would save this softproof set-up with a descriptive name at this point for future repeated use.
When to use the softproof comes down to your personal workflow, two common ones may go something like:
i) If your primary concern is creating a good master image for any output, then make the image pleasing in your chosen workspace. Then each time you print this image in a certain media (press, inkjet, contone photo output, webpage etc) you will need to sofproof that device and perhaps create adjustments taking into account the limitations or "features" of that particular output medium. So you may have your flat background layer of the original capture or scan. Then a layer set with the "base" adjustments to make the image suitable, in the current working/editing space. Then you may create another layer set folder for a specific device and turn on softproofing for that device and make output specific corrections for that device only and clearly marked as such. Over time you may end up with a series of layer sets, each targeted to a different sofproof for a different output condition (obviously with only *one* output device layer set visible/active at a time over the base adjustments/image data).
or
ii) If your primary concern is how the image looks when printed via the "ezprint" profile and online print service, then when you first open up the image in Photoshop, ensure it is in sRGB space and turn on the previously created softproof setting for this device and edit away until you are happy.
The setting is not sticky, to the best of my knowledge, so you will either have to manually turn on the softproof each time or perhaps write an action/droplet that turns on the sofproof as the first stage after opening the image.
The final image is presented to the print service provider as sRGB, the online print service does the final conversion, which is less ideal for some end users but more productive and workable for the service provider with the least amount of headaches for all concerned for the budget and expectations of non technical customers.
Hope this helps,
Stephen Marsh.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://prepression.blogspot.com/
Rhuarc, I think for a consumer level photo service, it makes things simpler all round to just funnel all incoming data as sRGB and presume that as the input description for output. For users that wish to preview the expected results, the profile is offered for users to sofproof and edit their final sRGB image, this is obviously not as ideal as converting to the printer profile and making the rendering decisions yourself, but again when I consider the business model, it makes sense from the service providers perspective (being one, I understand the minefield that colour management is when it comes to accepting incoming data). KISS - or the keep it simple stupid principle.
Perhaps a "pro" service could be added (for a surcharge for the different workflow that the SP has to implement), where end users can convert to the supplied printer profile and supply their image in that output space. So then the service provider knows that for a "pro" level job, there is no conversion, the existing [device ready] RGB numbers are simply sent direct to the output device. If an end user has forgotten to embedd the ezprint profile or left the image in Adobe RGB, then that is the fault of the "pro" and not the service provider, all incoming "pro" data would be considered final and print ready with no conversion required.
This is just my take on things, the service provider in question would have to give their answer on why they only accept sRGB data for input for their custom profiled output, while they also offer the custom profile for softproofing but not conversion.
Similar workflows are common in photo labs using say Fuji Frontier output devices. There may be a "consumer" level service where ICC profiles/EXIF tags are ignored and all incoming RGB data is presumed to be sRGB, then a conversion is made from the assumed RGB source space to the printers device space (this is where the misconception comes from that Frontier outputs sRGB colour, when it actually outputs "Frontier" colour). Some photo labs may also offer a more expensive fully colour managed service, where they will honour and accept any embedded profile as presented and convert to the output device, or give the customer the choice of performing the conversion and then they will simply output the numbers with no conversion.
I hope you can see how confusing this can become with three possible and common workflows that the service provider could offer, not to mention many clients do not know or care about colour management and those that do may be confused etc.
Footnote: It is not always possible to work in the direct output space. ICC profiles can be RGB or CMYK. Many inkjet printers for example, have more than 4 inks. If the output of the device is profiled as RGB (or CMYK), then that is the profiles space, even if the device is CcMmYK or whatever. In other settings such as press, one can work in the final image space. In the case of this thread, although technically possible to work in the final RGB output space and to print this data with no conversion, this is not the business model in use.
Regards,
Stephen Marsh.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://prepression.blogspot.com/
Has anyone here tried to have the ezprint profile 'on' all the time when working on a image? Does it work?
http://www.paintbypixels.com
The softproof will stay active for the current work session, but when you close down the image and reopen it, the softproof will be off (thus the bit quoted above).
EDIT: If you wish to use this as your working space profile, you can convert from the current RGB to the output profile and edit using the softproof - but at the end of the day you would have to convert back to sRGB if understand things correctly, as that is what the service providers workflow presumes. If is usually not recommended that one work in a printer space as an editing space, due to gray balance and other issues (which is why there are synthetic working spaces).
Hope this helps,
Stephen Marsh.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://prepression.blogspot.com/
This does help, thanks Stephen. I guess I cant have my cake and eat it too.... Damn, now it seems like I may have to edit some (all?) pictures twice. Normal workflow, and then adjust if the ezprint proofing shows too dramatic a difference....
http://www.paintbypixels.com
I would wait for Andy or another official voice to chime in before drawing any hard conclusions...as I said in my OP, I don't use the profile but I have listened to the various conversations regarding it's use.
You may not like it (general edits and then targeted edits for the output), but it is fairly normal when going from larger gamut to smaller gamut or different shaped colour spaces (I am in prepress, so I got used to this a couple of decades ago).
Stephen Marsh.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~binaryfx/
http://prepression.blogspot.com/
The idea of providing a profile for soft proof and not using it to convert (and expecting someone else to do this, using some unknown intent) is half baked IMHO. Either funnel everything into sRGB and get what you get, or use color management system from start to finish as designed.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
Don't you have to make sure the LAB will accept images in the target profile color space? It's my understanding that EzPrints (what this thread was started about) only accepts sRGB images.
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The point is, if a lab supplies an output profile, you should be able to use it.
What's the point of suppling a profile if you can't convert, control rendering intent and post edit?
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
I get your point.
But, not everyone here is as advanced as you are. And, the original question was about printing at ezprints and, as far as I know, they will only take sRGB profiled images. I just wanted to make sure the original poster knows that they can't combine your advice about converting to the profile with printing at ezprints (or through Smugmug).
To your question, even without converting to the profile, isn't there value in seeing if there are colors that are out of gamut and how they would likely look when printed (if you know the printer's rendering intent settings). And, perhaps doing some post to bring the image into gamut (I frequently reduce saturation and luminosity on bright reds before printing to bring them in gamut).
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Some but its not ideal nor how the ICC workflow in Photoshop and other applications were designed. The printer doesn't have a rendering intent, the profiles do. We might be able to specify this at print time?
IF indeed the printer is using the profile you have received, what's the reason they will not accept files in output ready color space like many other providers?
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
You've got me - I can't answer that one. I have no idea why a commerical printer wouldn't take documents in their own profile. I'm surprised that many don't even take AdobeRGB to let folks get at more of the gamut of their printers than sRGB offers.
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I don't think it's so much that the printer will not accept prints in their profile (if you submit the prints directly to the printer without them being purchased off SmugMug), it's more to do with the way that the whole system of SmugMug - EzPrints works.
Since the images on our SmugMug sites are best viewed (at this stage in most browsers) in sRGB mode, then it is best to process images with a final output to sRGB.
However, since we have the profile from the printer, we can softproof at the end of our processing and apply adjustment layers to ensure that the sRGB file will print the same as it looks on a screen when people purchase it.
That last comment should be read as being under ideal conditions. I am under no illusion that my files will be viewed the same on many peoples monitors, since most people don't have calibrated displays.
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As to the original question, I personally wouldn't advise doing all your adjustments on an image while softproofing, unless you are absolutely certain that you will only ever print to a printer using EzPrints.
If you ever intend to output to other devices, then in my opinion you are best to produce a use neutral master image and then do the final processing just before output that is specific to the intended use.
Regards,
Peter
I get that it's how Smugmug - EzPrints works, but lots of printers won't take images in their own profiles or in AdobeRGB even when dealing with them directly.
From EzPrint's site:
"Make sure that you are working in the sRGB workspace in Photoshop. Our printers make color adjustments based on the assumption that your file is sRGB (the standard color space for most digital cameras). To set sRGB as your workspace, go to Edit > Color Settings... and select sRGB from the dropdown menu next to RGB. If your image is CMYK, you will need to convert it to RGB. We require that the files uploaded to us be RGB."
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The web uses a display as its output device. The best (today) color space for this is sRGB.
A printer is a totally different story. It can't output sRGB, that's impossible. There's only one output device that produces sRGB, its an emissive CRT display based on specifications created by MS in early 1990. That we can use more modern LCD's to view this is by design of these output devices. But no printer produces sRGB. They may assume sRGB such that a color space conversion to the output device can be automatically conducted, which makes the job of person running the printer a lot easier. This isn't an emissive RGB device, its some CMY device (even if its using lasers or light valves, the media isn't emissive of course).
If you understand that a printer requires some different output color space and you supply a profile to define this behavior, you allow the users to convert with control, post edit the image if necessary then all the person driving the printer has to do is setup the front end to accept this. Send the RGB numbers to the device, period. Many shops do this, this isn't unique or an unsupported workflow. Why some allow this and others do not is more a workflow issue than a color management issue. For example, some Fuji Frontier labs will only accept sRGB and the front end device managing the files will accept nothing else. Or the same lab owner can place a different front end product (again from Fuji) that will accept documents in an output color space.
Providing an output profile and not fully using it is IMHO, a half baked idea. Either demand all files in sRGB, informing the end user they are not fully implementing the most powerful color management practices or let them use the system to its fullest.
As to the bit about digital cameras and sRGB, again this is incorrect and a huge over simplification. OK, depending on the audience, some feel its necessary to dumb down the process. Digital cameras absolutely do not capture sRGB, again that's not possible. They produce a Raw file that you may or may not have access to. The camera may funnel the Raw data into a rendering (totally proprietary) and encode that data into sRGB.
In the end, the shop has to decide who their audience is and end users have to decide what kind of lab they wish to use based on their needs. IF you want to soft proof, control rendering intent and post edit the image based on this, you really should be able to provide the data in the output color space and the lab should send the numbers to the device as provided. IF you're a consumer, don't know the what sRGB is, don't use Photoshop or a similar professional level product, then a lab is probably best to dumb down the process as much as possible. These end users are not calibrating their displays, if they get color that's reasonably pleasing, even when viewing under a kitchen task light, fine.
Author "Color Management for Photographers"
http://www.digitaldog.net/
That's not my experience, but that might say more about my own choice of printing services in the past, than it does about standard industry practices.
In my own experience, where profiles from the printer are available, files can be submitted to them in their profile and they will send it directly to the printer as is.
I must admit that I haven't sent any files directly to EzPrints for printing. I'm in Europe, so I have local printers when I'm not printing myself.
However, I would think that this is a general guide for most consumers and that if you had enough confidence in your workflow to provide them with an image processed with their profile, they would accept it. I'm sure it would only take a phone call.
If that isn't the case, I would be surprised (but it wouldn't be the first time).
Regards,
Peter
- Be sure to calibrate your monitor. Either use something manual like Adobe Gamma control or use a hardware solution like EyeOne or ColorVision's Spyder. And make sure that this monitor profile is loaded and active. This makes sure that your red does look properly red
- When working in sRGB, set your Photoshop's workspace to use the standard sRGB. This is your output gamut, your colorspace (some may decide to set it to standard adobeRGB and convert to sRGB later).
- The ezprints.icc is a color-profile that is to be used for soft-proofing only.
- You can edit with soft-proofing on, but when closing and re-opening the image, the soft-proof-on setting does not stick.
The reason that soft-proofing looks different is that paper is not a monitor. - Paper is not pure white. Monitors do a better job producing pure white.
- Paper uses reflected light. Monitors emit light.
- CMYK may not be able to produce some sRGB colors and vice versa... (i don't know if EZPrints printers use CMYK, though).
- etc.
But colors should not dramatically change when switching soft-proofing on. What you should mostly see is some decrease in contrast, whites not being pure white, etc.
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