Color Profile Confusion

Rockporters

When I upload photos to SmugMug in their original size, they lose saturation, except when viewing at the original size. However, if I upload the photo at a smaller size, it is able to retain the original saturation.:dunno

The camera is set to sRGB. Photoshop uses the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 color space, and all photos have the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile ebedded.

Any idea what is causing this problem? :scratch

(smaller upload)


(original size upload)


(smaller upload)


(original size upload)

jfriend

Rockporters wrote:

When I upload photos to SmugMug in their original size, they lose saturation, except when viewing at the original size. However, if I upload the photo at a smaller size, it is able to retain the original saturation.

The camera is set to sRGB. Photoshop uses the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 color space, and all photos have the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 profile ebedded.

Any idea what is causing this problem?

In both of these examples the original uploaded size for the smaller images is a colorspace of "huey D65 G2.2 A0.00" whereas the original uploaded size for the larger uploads is "sRGB IEC61966-2.1". Since browsers assume sRGB, the huey images are probably not being displayed properly.

Rockporters

jfriend wrote:

In both of these examples the original uploaded size for the smaller images is a colorspace of "huey D65 G2.2 A0.00" whereas the original uploaded size for the larger uploads is "sRGB IEC61966-2.1". Since browsers assume sRGB, the huey images are probably not being displayed properly.

It is so strange that Huey shows for you--that is my monitor color setting, never use it for pics. When I look at the ebedded exif for the smaller and larger picture in SmugMug, Photoshop, Lightroom, and in my finder... it shows as either sRGB or sRGB IEC61966-2.1, so I can't replicate what you're seeing. What program are you seeing this in?

Thanks for your help!

jfriend

Rockporters wrote:

It is so strange that Huey shows for you--that is my monitor color setting, never use it for pics. When I look at the ebedded exif for the smaller and larger picture in SmugMug, Photoshop, Lightroom, and in my finder... it shows as either sRGB or sRGB IEC61966-2.1, so I can't replicate what you're seeing. What program are you seeing this in?

Thanks for your help!

I download the "original" size from Smugmug (that's the only version of the image that Smugmug retains the embedded color profile on), load it into Photoshop CS3, open the Convert to Profile dialog (without actually hitting OK and converting it to anything) and this is what I see:



Since I would have no idea about your monitor profile and this information is showing up on my computer, this information has to be embedded in the image somehow.

Have you, by any chance, set this profile as your working profile in Photoshop or Lightroom?

Rockporters

Ok--I was able to duplicate by downloading the original of the two small pics above. These appear to be the only two affected, and ironically the only two I've scaled down with the iPhoto to Smug plugin. I guess I won't be sizing down with the uploader plugin!

Everything is back to normal and suffering from the problem I usually have-- photos that are much less saturated on SmugMug than in Photoshop, Lightroom, and iPhoto. Except, of course, if you view the original in Safari, and then appearance is normal. Maybe the Huey profile was a good thing .

Thanks so much for your help! I knew something went awry when the photos showed up as vibrant as when downloaded from the camera! Too bad there doesn't seem to be a fix for that...

jfriend

Rockporters wrote:

Ok--I was able to duplicate by downloading the original of the two small pics above. These appear to be the only two affected, and ironically the only two I've scaled down with the iPhoto to Smug plugin. I guess I won't be sizing down with the uploader plugin!

Everything is back to normal and suffering from the problem I usually have-- photos that are much less saturated on SmugMug than in Photoshop, Lightroom, and iPhoto. Except, of course, if you view the original in Safari, and then appearance is normal. Maybe the Huey profile was a good thing .

Thanks so much for your help! I knew something went awry when the photos showed up as vibrant as when downloaded from the camera! Too bad there doesn't seem to be a fix for that...

Hmmm. There is a fix for this problem. I don't know what it is yet, but it is certainly a solvable problem to have your Smugmug images show the same amount of saturation as you see in Photoshop. There are many different variables so it might take awhile to figure it out and we might need some help from the colorspace experts. The fact that they look saturated in Safari, but not in other browsers definitely points to a colorspace issue because Safari is color-managed (e.g. it respects and uses an embedded color profile) whereas the other browsers do not. So, if it looks like you want in Safari, but not in the other browsers, then that usually means that the embedded profile is not the standard sRGB profile.

First, a few questions:

• You are on a Mac, correct?
• Do you know what your monitor gamma is set to?
• What did you use to calibrate your screen?
• In Photoshop, do you have Proof Colors enabled? If so, what profile are you proofing with?
• If you compare the original sized image (that you are pretty sure is sRGB) on Smugmug in Safari and some other browser, do they look the same or different? If different, can you post a link to an image that you think is sRGB that they look different on?

Rockporters

I am on a Mac, specifically a MacBook Pro laptop. We have a few other machines in the house that I proof photos on, though 2 of them are MacBook Pros , too,which isn't very useful.

My display is set to 2.2 gamma, D65 white point. To calibrate I used Huey Pantone. I don't keep proof colors on, but I do soft proof using sRGB IEC61966-2.1 before finishing up with a photo. In addition I view the photos using Firefox (2.0.0.7), Camino (1.0.4), and Safari (3.0.3).


The above pictures are all good examples of what I described, and they should all have sRGB IEC61966-2.1 embedded now. Below are a couple of screenshots--not extremely helpful, but... BTW small, medium and large appear in Safari as they do n the other browsers, it's just original that is different. Oddly enough if I set the color profile to Adobe RGB (1998) D65 WP 2.2 Gamma the photos appear consistently across browsers, and in Photoshop, Lightroom, etc...

Oh btw, there seems to be an occasional hiccup with iPhoto randomly assigning the monitor profile to photos. When I imported the png files from the screenshots it again assigned the Huey profile, I then corrected the color space in Photoshop, but I'm not sure why iPhoto is doing that.

Thanks for your help!

Screenshot from Safari



Screenshot from Photoshop



Screenshot from Firefox

jfriend

Rockporters wrote:

BTW small, medium and large appear in Safari as they do n the other browsers, it's just original that is different. Oddly enough if I set the color profile to Adobe RGB (1998) D65 WP 2.2 Gamma the photos appear consistently across browsers, and in Photoshop, Lightroom, etc...

This sounds suspiciously like the files that you are uploading to Smugmug are actually AdobeRGB, but are labelled with a profile that Safari understands, but Smugmug does not recognize as AdobeRGB so it doesn't convert them to sRGB for you. This would match the symptoms exactly.

• The original sized images would look good in Safari, not good in other browsers (because only Safari understands the AdobeRGB profile).
• The other browsers would show the original images as "washed out", less brilliant colors.
• All browsers would show the smaller sizes on Smugmug the same (and washed out, less brilliant) because Smugmug does not preserve color profiles on the generated sizes so all browsers would treat them the same and not understand that they are supposed to be AdobeRGB.

If this is the case, then the solution would be to make sure that the originals you upload to Smugmug are properly "converted" to sRGB before upload. Please note that there is a big difference between "converting" an image to a new color profile and "assigning" an image a new profile. You want convert.

Rockporters

Hi John,

I'm pretty sure the photos have the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 embedded. I thought maybe it could be a problem that the profile wasn't just plain sRGB, but everything I've read indicates that sRGB IEC61966-2.1 is a fine choice. Before I consistently embedded color profiles there was a discrpency across browsers, but now the photos appear consistent, except for the original in Safari. (which is the one that matches Photoshop/LightRoom/iPhoto)

I have no idea how the coloring appears in Windows, which is a concern, too. Maybe everything appears perfectly fine and dandy, at least the majority would be viewing the photos as intended.

Thinking maybe iPhoto may still be the culprit, although the pictures are showing with the correct profile afterwards, I tried uploading from LightRoom/SmugMug Mac Uploader/drag and drop within SmugMug. Same results as with iPhoto, and the color profile still checks out ok.

Frustrating, and it makes post processing difficult.

kisi

i'm having the same problem, my images look a lot more saturated in the original than the smaller smugmug versions. not sure why... i export with srgb out of lightroom and edit in photoshop with no proofing for web. i double checked some of the ones i noticed it a lot for and they are definitely in sRGB IEC61966-2.1 color space. oddly enough, when i download the small/med/large size from the website and open in photoshop, the colors match the original. i havent tried using safari, i have a mac but i always use firefox... so i'm guessing it's a browser thing? but when i have the originals enabled and i look at the original in the browser, it looks ok. stumped!

jfriend

Rockporters wrote:

Hi John,

I'm pretty sure the photos have the sRGB IEC61966-2.1 embedded. I thought maybe it could be a problem that the profile wasn't just plain sRGB, but everything I've read indicates that sRGB IEC61966-2.1 is a fine choice. Before I consistently embedded color profiles there was a discrpency across browsers, but now the photos appear consistent, except for the original in Safari. (which is the one that matches Photoshop/LightRoom/iPhoto)

I have no idea how the coloring appears in Windows, which is a concern, too. Maybe everything appears perfectly fine and dandy, at least the majority would be viewing the photos as intended.

Thinking maybe iPhoto may still be the culprit, although the pictures are showing with the correct profile afterwards, I tried uploading from LightRoom/SmugMug Mac Uploader/drag and drop within SmugMug. Same results as with iPhoto, and the color profile still checks out ok.

Frustrating, and it makes post processing difficult.

It sure sounds like something is messing up in the workflow. I'm willing to take a look at a couple photos from your workflow, but we'll need to not go through Smugmug just so I'm sure I'm seeing unaltered photos. If you want me to take a look, send me an email (click on the send email link in my dgrin profile).

Rockporters

Thank you John. I emailed you a link to originals, not on SmugMug. Thanks again for your help!

jfriend

Rockporters wrote:

Thank you John. I emailed you a link to originals, not on SmugMug. Thanks again for your help!

Got them. I'll take a look. The first thing I notice is that the profile they have coming out of the camera is "Camera RGB Profile" rather than "sRGB IEC61966-2.1" Camera RGB Profile is not the same as sRGB IEC61966-2.1. I'll look into it some more.

jfriend

Rockporters wrote:

Thank you John. I emailed you a link to originals, not on SmugMug. Thanks again for your help!

OK, making some progress.

Next questions:
What version of iPhoto are you running? What version of Mac OS are you running? What is your monitor gamma set to, 1.8 or 2.2? Do you sometimes modify your photos in iPhoto in any way (even just cropping or tagging)?

Rockporters

jfriend wrote:

OK, making some progress.

Next questions:
What version of iPhoto are you running? What version of Mac OS are you running? What is your monitor gamma set to, 1.8 or 2.2? Do you sometimes modify your photos in iPhoto in any way (even just cropping or tagging)?

Hi John, My 40D is set to sRGB. When opening photos in Photoshop I'm sometimes prompted because one will have a Camera RGB profile which doesn't match my color settings. My 20D on the other hand, always displayed Camera RGB when using the sRGB camera setting.

There have been two recent changes to my process. I replaced the 20D with the 40D, and I upgraded to iPhoto '08 when it came out.

Versions and settings:

iPhoto '08 version 7.1
Photoshop CS3 Extended version 10.0
Mac OS X 10.4.10
Display gamma is 2.2
White point d65
Huey color profile (calibrated)

These days I don't really use iPhoto for editing. On the rare occasion I might crop, but typically all editing takes place in Photoshop. Keywords are sometimes added to ease sorting, I have 7600 pics in iPhoto, but that isn't a consistent effort.

Rockporters

You know what, there is a third change here... I've started calibrating with Huey.
Not that it makes a difference, but it is a change.