this picture has potential...

Elaine · October 3, 2007

Does anyone else feel like they're in the this-picture-I-took-has-potential-so-I'll-mess-with-it-'till-I-come-up-with-something-satisfying business??? A lot of the times I'm happy with what I'm able to come up with, but a lot of time is spent to get there. I'm having a difficult time telling if I'm actually getting better at picture taking or getting better at post processing! :scratch Take for example, this shot:

I'm a sucker for a detail shot like this, and I'm happy with this rendition (although I'm sure somebody could tweak it some more and come up with something even better). But...the original is embarrassingly bad! For the sake of this discussion, I'll share it here:

Now, I'm sure I could have improved this shot in-camera a number of ways, but I guess I'm second guessing my skills if I keep taking shots like this and then have to spend time making them a bit more special. Am I really a photographer or am I just getting better with the mouse? I would like to be better at seeing and capturing the potential to begin with. I guess everyone here would like to do that. But I almost feel like a fraud because I refuse to release unedited images and I work through them one at a time to try and eek out the potential each one has. Is this normal?? Am I nuts or what? Anyone??

pyrtek · October 3, 2007

Elaine wrote:

Am I really a photographer or am I just getting better with the mouse?

Who cares? The end result is important, not the way you achieved it.

Elaine wrote:

I would like to be better at seeing and capturing the potential to begin with. I guess everyone here would like to do that.

Not me. I'm only interested in the end result.

Elaine wrote:

But I almost feel like a fraud because I refuse to release unedited images and I work through them one at a time to try and eek out the potential each one has. Is this normal??

Who cares what's normal? The end result is what's important, not the means
of getting to it.

Elaine · October 3, 2007

Well...that's one way of looking at it, I guess!

I care that I may not be using my equipment to its fullest potential and relying on lots of time spent at the computer screen in order to get the end result I find desirable. This is tiring, time consuming and keeps me from shooting more!

I care about "what's normal" because I desire to learn more about photography and improve my own techniques and workflow patterns in post. I know I don't have all of that figured out yet, so I'd like to hear what others are doing so I can learn.

Perhaps "normal" is a bad term to use here. Perhaps I should have asked, "Is this [pouring over each image to make it its best] what the majority of photographers do...usually?" Because if it's not, then I think I have something to learn in this department. If it is, then I also think I have something to learn in this department, even if it's just "get faster!"

I'm struggling with this whole idea, specifically as I work through pictures from the first wedding I helped shoot (lots of pics!). My eyes tend to see every picture as improvable, even in some small way. Yet, how much time am I wasting on improving pics when the person off the street wouldn't even be able to tell the difference? The idea of shooting another wedding is completely overwhelming to me, only because of this editing load.

I know nothing about batch processing (work with PSE 5), I haven't even shot RAW yet (please, no lectures...I know the benefits, just haven't gotten there yet with my post processing), so I know (hope?) there are ways I could improve my time involved in post with some new skills under my belt. But I also would rather get nearly there in-camera.

Yeah, I'm about the end result, too. But I personally don't want my mind-set to be...I'll just push the button and fix it later. And when I'm thinking about the end result of a CD full of edited images, I want to be proud to have my name on each image, so I'm back to touching each one...one at a time...I'm fixing them all, later!

I guess I'm looking for some encouragment...that it's OK/a-good-idea-by-most-accounts to edit every picture (especially for a wedding), that it's OK to see potential in an average shot and work to draw it out (is that part of a photographer's vision maybe, especially in this digital age?), that it takes practice to learn which pics get the quick fixes and which ones get more special treatment.

All right, I'll stop now. I hope to hear more.

pemmett · October 3, 2007

Elaine,

My two cents worth are:

It's important to know your equipment as best you can - so that you know where everything is and what everything does.
It vital to get the best shot possible, in terms of lighting, composition, etc etc. The better the photo you start with the better the photo you end up with.
It seems that spending sometime behind the keyboard is inevitable, but as per #2 the better the photo the less time you'll need.
Learn some of the basics off by heart so that you do them automatically, e.g. take a look in the view finder for distracting objects before you push the button, overexpose mainly white object and underexpose mainly dark objects, etc. Having the basics become natural seems to make things easier (so I've been told)
Shoot in RAW - yes I read you comment, but still shoot in RAW, it really isn’t that painful ;-)

About the photo, the cropped image would look very good in a set of other photos from the wedding, it has a great atmosphere and begs many questions about what the couple were doing, it also has a very tender feeling.

The original seems to have suffered from the camera being tricked into underexposing the picture (which you have adjusted nicely in the cropped image) and the guys head in the background is distracting (which you have done a good job getting rid of).

Hope this is two cents well spent.

Cheers/Peter

Icebear · October 3, 2007

Nice shot
I think all the white in the subject fooled your meter like a snow scene. You rescued it beautifully. What about a vertical crop so you can keep a bit more of the veil?? When you cropped to get rid of the "spectator" you lost some of the veil. Maybe you wanted to, but I think the subject cries out for a vrtical treatment.

It's beautiful.

pathfinder · October 3, 2007

I agree - the image was under exposed, but salvageable via image editing.

When shooting white scenes, like snow fields, or wedding dresses, + Exposure Compensation is needed - try + 1 1/3 to 1 2/3s + EC. Or shoot in Manual Mode and make sure the histogram has a spike near the right border, but not past it.

Elaine · October 4, 2007

Hmmm...I guess I confused my point by adding the pictures. Thanks for all the tips, but I know exactly what I did wrong. I know about overexposing for whites and exposure compensation. I wasn't asking for help with diagnosing this picture. I can see how my title and then displaying the pictures would make one think that. I'm sorry I dropped in with my confused state of mind. It's been a tough day. I guess I just have some things I need to work out on my own, regarding post processing and time management.

rwells · October 4, 2007

Elaine wrote:

I guess I'm looking for some encouragment...that it's OK/a-good-idea-by-most-accounts to edit every picture (especially for a wedding), that it's OK to see potential in an average shot and work to draw it out (is that part of a photographer's vision maybe, especially in this digital age?), that it takes practice to learn which pics get the quick fixes and which ones get more special treatment.

Elaine,

First, if 50 people answer your post, you'll get 71 different answers

It was a pretty big shock to me when I turned pro to learn the differences in what you would normally do with your "fun" pictures, and what you have to do for "work" pictures. Whole different world!

I know you participate in the LPS contest. I think Shay set this up to help photographers learn how to take photographs within some constraints. Much like taking photographs for money. You have to know what your market expects.

To reference your topic about weddings (which I rarely do), I think you HAVE to spend the time to make your remaining photographs the best that you can. (reference the end of this book

for that meaning)

Let's say you shoot sports professionally, like I do. If you have a busy weekend, that may mean you've shot 3,000+ shots. The way potential customers are when shooting spec, they want to see those pics quick! If they don't see them by Monday, your gonna' loose a lot of sales.

Now we have a logistics problem. How do you spend a lot of time on each picture to make it it's very best? The answer is --- you can't. Not if you want to stay in business.

On the other hand, you need to produce a good product, not a perfect product, but a good one. But that's a relative term, based on your market. I'll assure you that the expectations are not the same for a bull rider's picture for $20.00 as opposed to a once in a lifetime wedding photograph.

Yes, I still want to produce the best photographs that I can, but I can't be spending a lot of time on each and every picture.

So, here it comes...

Give your very best effort to get the best picture in camera. Then, and this one hurts ---- be very brutal to your pictures! I've often read and find it true, that a professionals best tool for producing quality photographs is the TRASH CAN :cry

Get rid of the ones that just don't cut it. Try and take out any emotion that you personally attach to the image. Look at them as if someone else (that you don't even know) took them. Act like a tough magazine editor.

Not only will this reduce your workload, but you will soon find that since you have to trash a lot of pics that "could have been", you'll have it more in the front of your mind to make sure everything is how you want it before you press the shutter.

Now, after that tough task, spend the time needed to make the remaining photographs look their best.

Dang!!!

Didn't mean to get so long winded....sorry!

pyrtek · October 4, 2007

Elaine wrote:

Yeah, I'm about the end result, too. But I personally don't want my mind-set to be...I'll just push the button and fix it later.

That is not what I suggested. The way you posed your question it seemed
that you felt like it was cheating to fix pictures in post and that is what
I was responding to. As to the "push the button and fix it later" mentality, I'm very
much against it for the simple reason that it's too time consuming, as you
pointed out. I try to get it right in camera, but sometimes I also see an opportunity
where I think "Hmm, normally I wouldn't take this picture, but if I can do this
and that to it in Photoshop it'll be great" and I take a picture I normally wouldn't.

SloYerRoll · October 4, 2007

rwells wrote:

a professionals best tool for producing quality photographs is the TRASH CAN

Never heard this before, but I love it!
Thanks for that gem!

Betzi · October 5, 2007

I love the organic shapes of the veil, and the tender moment expressed by the hands

.........It is the vertical lines of the siding that really takes away from the photo. Take them away...and I imagine a beautiful focus on your subject.

Elaine · October 5, 2007

pyrtek wrote:

That is not what I suggested. The way you posed your question it seemed
that you felt like it was cheating to fix pictures in post and that is what
I was responding to. As to the "push the button and fix it later" mentality, I'm very
much against it for the simple reason that it's too time consuming, as you
pointed out. I try to get it right in camera, but sometimes I also see an opportunity
where I think "Hmm, normally I wouldn't take this picture, but if I can do this
and that to it in Photoshop it'll be great" and I take a picture I normally wouldn't.

Thanks for the clarification! I agree with you here!

Elaine · October 5, 2007

rwells wrote:

Elaine,

First, if 50 people answer your post, you'll get 71 different answers

...

To reference your topic about weddings (which I rarely do), I think you HAVE to spend the time to make your remaining photographs the best that you can. (reference the end of this book for that meaning)

...

Yes, I still want to produce the best photographs that I can, but I can't be spending a lot of time on each and every picture.

So, here it comes...

Give your very best effort to get the best picture in camera. Then, and this one hurts ---- be very brutal to your pictures! I've often read and find it true, that a professionals best tool for producing quality photographs is the TRASH CAN :cry

Get rid of the ones that just don't cut it. Try and take out any emotion that you personally attach to the image. Look at them as if someone else (that you don't even know) took them. Act like a tough magazine editor.

Not only will this reduce your workload, but you will soon find that since you have to trash a lot of pics that "could have been", you'll have it more in the front of your mind to make sure everything is how you want it before you press the shutter.

Now, after that tough task, spend the time needed to make the remaining photographs look their best.

Dang!!!

Didn't mean to get so long winded....sorry!

Thank you!!! This is the type of advice I needed to hear! I love the part about using the trash can! I feel like I'm already quite selective, but I will be even more selective. And I won't beat myself up about wanting to spend extra time on wedding photos. It is (hopefully) a once-in-a-lifetime day for them. As I've only shot one wedding, as a volunteer second shooter, I've also decided not to be too hard on myself. Learning takes time, after all. Thanks for taking the time to write out all these good reminders.

Elaine · October 5, 2007

Betzi wrote:

I love the organic shapes of the veil, and the tender moment expressed by the hands .........It is the vertical lines of the siding that really takes away from the photo. Take them away...and I imagine a beautiful focus on your subject.

Well, this is where it comes down to personal preference, I guess!

I actually like the juxtaposition of the curvy shapes and the straight lines. And it is part of the story...their first wedding dance was on the groom's parent's back porch and that is their house in the background. It's always good to hear other opinions, though, so I appreciate you sharing yours.

cdonovan · October 5, 2007

rwells I have to agree with everything you said!!

I think that post processing is just as important to the process as the photography....however that being said, I'm just as proud of some photos that are right off the camera as I am ones that are pp'd.

When I started out I was shooting film and I was very careful about framing and the perfect shot rather than just getting a snap to fix later...I find that with digital that I'm able to salvage some photos that I've taken as an experiment or just to see what would happen...Huge benefits to either format... but, it's the end product that means the most, so however you create that is completly up to you!

rwells · October 5, 2007

Elaine wrote:

Thank you!!! This is the type of advice I needed to hear! I love the part about using the trash can! ...

Thanks for taking the time to write out all these good reminders.

Elaine,

Your more than welcome, I hope that something in there helps you out

I read about the trash can probably 30 years ago, and while I always remembered it, I didn't do it very often --- "I don't have to... you can't make me"

It didn't really sink in until I started shooting professionally, that's when the meaning hit home! Time constraints, HAVE to produce a good product, etc...

The other hard one for me still, is removing any emotion out of the "taking" of a picture when it comes time for the "cut". I've found that the viewer really doesn't care if you were hanging 12' upside down off of a tree limb and a lizard was biting your ear while you were trying to get this shot that turned out "OK"

bottom line, it's still just an OK picture.

Have fun, looking forward to seeing more of your work.

Leonardo · October 7, 2007

Postprocessing vs. excellent photography skills ... it becomes a neverending debate. I agree the end product is what means the most, whether you create it just out of camera or after less or more pp. For me pp is one addition to photograpy and I think that purpose of someone's product determine how much time someone can afford to spend on pp. When to stop with pp is another question that bothers me.

In my case it can extend to infinity, and that's because I don't earn for living like photographer and do not shoot like professionals.:D

I also agree with Randy's mention about using the trash can. In fact, last few weeks I'm executing massive "massacre" over my photo collection, after a long time of gathering odds and ends. I released about 20 GB on HD till now, and that produced great sensation of relief.

S. Horton · October 7, 2007

If you have the PP skills to create something, great.

Nice concept and a good result, IMO.

this picture has potential...

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