Leaning toward Panasonic's DSLR (Lumix DMC-L10)
First let me point out I'm not trying to encourage a "my brand over your brand" debate...but I want to make the best overall choice of what to buy for my capabilities and needs. I really have not made up my mind entirely, but am leaning toward "the devil I know" (Panasonic) over the only two other competitors I would consider at this point (Nikon...D40X or perhaps a D80...and Canon...40D).
Brief bio: Definitely not a pro, but am enjoying the learning process of taking better photos than I used to with P&S cameras.
Have been shooting with a Panasonic DMC-FZ10 for a couple of years now (about 4000 images...mostly family, vacations, outings). It's "only" a 4 megapixel camera, but the 12X optical Leica lens generally makes me a happy camper OUTDOORS over a wide range of shooting conditions and takes what I believe are really good pictures.
Indoor experience sucks!...low-light situations with a maximum practical ISO of only 200 (without noticeable noise), a weak on-camera flash (and external flash has no sync capability, either BTW) make for very disappointing exposure and color control. This is my main reason for wanting to replace it with something new.
A couple of the new L10 features really caught my attention:
Hinged Live View LCD display and Face Recognition (and image stabilization)promise to be hugely popular features for photographers like me (assuming they are well designed and live up to expectation). I won't have to crawl on my belly like a reptile to take floor-level shots or over-the-heads-of-the-crowd shots, and everyone at the Xmas party should be in focus for a change.
Neither Canon or Nikon offer these features (higned display, face recognition).
But I "worry" that Panasonic, for whatever reason, doesn't get positive press like Nikon and Canon, and figure I must be missing something. I know Canon makes great lenses, and Nikon is right up there too, but is Panasonic really that far down the food chain? (Are there some pro's out there who'll stand proudly behind their use of Panasonic equipment?).
Some feedback would be appreciated.
Brief bio: Definitely not a pro, but am enjoying the learning process of taking better photos than I used to with P&S cameras.
Have been shooting with a Panasonic DMC-FZ10 for a couple of years now (about 4000 images...mostly family, vacations, outings). It's "only" a 4 megapixel camera, but the 12X optical Leica lens generally makes me a happy camper OUTDOORS over a wide range of shooting conditions and takes what I believe are really good pictures.
Indoor experience sucks!...low-light situations with a maximum practical ISO of only 200 (without noticeable noise), a weak on-camera flash (and external flash has no sync capability, either BTW) make for very disappointing exposure and color control. This is my main reason for wanting to replace it with something new.
A couple of the new L10 features really caught my attention:
Hinged Live View LCD display and Face Recognition (and image stabilization)promise to be hugely popular features for photographers like me (assuming they are well designed and live up to expectation). I won't have to crawl on my belly like a reptile to take floor-level shots or over-the-heads-of-the-crowd shots, and everyone at the Xmas party should be in focus for a change.
Neither Canon or Nikon offer these features (higned display, face recognition).
But I "worry" that Panasonic, for whatever reason, doesn't get positive press like Nikon and Canon, and figure I must be missing something. I know Canon makes great lenses, and Nikon is right up there too, but is Panasonic really that far down the food chain? (Are there some pro's out there who'll stand proudly behind their use of Panasonic equipment?).
Some feedback would be appreciated.
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One problem is that to support autofocus in live view mode, you will have to use one of only two lenses currently in production. That would seem pretty limiting.
Without AF in live view, it begs the question of how valuable the hinged display might actually be.
Since the effectiveness of the "Face Recognition" accuracy is unknown, I'm afraid that you will have to wait for some formal reviews in order to make a reasonably informed decision.
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You are right about this, of course. Right now, I'm relying entirely on Panasonic's designers to really "deliver" on this feature and not just tease the user community with a feature that falls short of the hype. It has to be way better than what I currently have, or I'm really gonna regret forking over $1300 bucks.
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Tnx Dan...I was "afraid" of this...now I have to add the S5 to my list of possibles
The "w/o AF" statment concerning the live view mode has me a bit puzzled, though. It's probably "operator error" on my part (I'm learning as I go), but the spec sheet I looked at for the L10's focusing arrangement says it has 9 point "Contrast Detect" in the live view mode...is that not AF???
Another subject that has "cropped up", so to speak, in my research is crop-factor, which I don't yet fully understand. One camera store salesman told me he favors Canons and Nikons per se over the Panasonic because of Panasonic's Four-Thirds lens configuration, which he says limits the amount of light that can get to the sensor...thus the crop factor limitation. At this point, I'm not sure if that is something I seriously need to consider, or is it much ado about nothing?
I believe you are correct about the DMC-L10 being able to focus in live view mode using the "Contrast Detect" method, which I believe is used in many digicams. Unfortunately, it appears that full support in this mode of operation is limited to the two new lenses announced with the camera. Two lenses may be limiting, depending upon your intended use. I am assuming that all older lenses will work in the conventional "Phase Difference" which may be more accurate as well.
As far as the Four-Thirds system limiting light to the sensor, I don't believe that to be true, at least not as described. The Four-Thirds is a crop 2x system which simply means that the imager is approximately 2x smaller in area than a full-frame 35mm system. It should have no impact on limiting light other than the amount of photons which strike each photo sensor. This is simply because the photo sites are substantially smaller than other dSLR sensors. Typically, this means that more gain has to be applied to the image signal to produce a suitable exposure at any given ISO equivalency for a smaller sensor over a larger sensor. (Sensor design does factor in as well as how efficiently the image signals relay to the camera processor. In the very latest designs, some of the image processing is even performed on the imager itself, before the image is sent to the image processor.)
What all this means is that low light levels and high-ISOs are more challenging for smaller sensors in terms of signal to noise ratios. Smaller sensors rend to have higher noise levels at any given ISO versus larger sensors. Again, this is a generalization and individual systems have to be evaluated as a whole to determine their design effectiveness.
It is only after careful reviewing of the results of controlled tests that a true representation of the effectiveness of the different designs can be compared.
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For lenses, Panasonic is wise to be using Leica for their glass--though who knows who the actual manufacturer is. Canon & Nikon have been making lenses for decades & have become quite good at it. Panasonic has more of a history of general electronics (part of the Matsushita conglomerate).
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Exactly... Panasonic makes everything from alarm clocks to cd players and speakers. Their main business is not Camera's. Canon and Nikon is ALL ABOUT cameras... and yeah they sell printers and binoculars on the side.
Hate to disagree with you, but I do. Canon makes most of their money in other things - copiers, printers, etc.
Coming from the Oly camp - I think Nikon and Canon get the most press because they are the largest manufacturers. However, I thinik offerings by Panasonic, Pentax, Olympus, Fuji, and Sony are still worth looking into. I have Olympus gear and love it. I know people with panasonic gear that love it. I would endorse a panasonic SLR - they look like great cameras. Just because they aren't the largest company doesn't mean they aren't good.
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I have a Panasonic Lumix FZ-15 that I purchased a few years ago specifically as my "backpacking" camera. My experience with it has been the same as yours: great outdoors, horrible in low light. I've given up on using it to photograph my sons games in a gymnasium. Although, strangely, it picks back up in "no light" conditions like a concert, etc. I still think it's an excellent choice for the outdoors, especially backpacking, where weight matters and you don't want to be hauling around extra lenses, etc. The lens, 12X optical zoom, and image stablization also make it a good choice, IMHO, for backcountry photography when the rest of your backpacking group doesn't want to stop and wait for you to set up for a shot. I've been on several multiple day backpacking trips with the Boy Scouts and this camera has not disappointed me. I know that "backpacking" is an awfully small niche for a camera, but in that category I think the large Lumixes are very well suited. I'm thinking of upgrading to one of the new 18x optical zoom versions. Like you, I mostly shoot for myself (family, vacations., etc.). I have used the Lumix to shoot architecture for paying clients. In any case, I think the Lumix camera's deserve better press than they get. Is it a good professional camera? I'm really not qualified to say. Is it a good "pro-sumer" level camera? I think that yes it is, if you'll be shooting outdoors and weight and zoom matter to you. Just my two cents.
Olympus E510 and Gigapan mount
Having read that post would you spend 1200 bucks on it... or 1200 bucks on somthing like a 40D or D300 that does have great low light abilities? lol... k enuf... I think I have more than my two cents into this one!! HAHA!
I think lots of people backpack with their camera's. Ya know, it doesn't have to be a 2 month trek through tibet... lots of people backpack to birding areas, landscape shots, etc, etc. I don't even really go out much like that here in Jersey, and even I have a nice camera pack.
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Ziggy53, dangin, sirsloop, claudermilk, architexas, swintonphoto...
I really appreciate your collective input thus far...yep, brand "matters", so no angst on my end (I was only trying to keep brand "fanatics" at bay, hoping that there might be folks who, through actual hands-on recent use, could contrast/compare the DSLR offerings from Panasonic, Nikon, Canon, etc.).
I'm more of a "wannabe"-better picture-taker than a photographer. So purple-fringing, barrel distortion, chromatic aberation, digitial noise, etc. (unless it's obvious) and other "fine points" on the technical side are beyond my paygrade in terms of camera selection. It might be argued that a DSLR is beyond my paygrade, for that matter, but I think I'm getting there.
While I have a ways to go (and some time) before making a decision, as of the moment I'm still leaning Panasonic because of the "Feature comforts" (flipout display, and face recognition) that Panasonic offers (and most others don't), and trying to justify $1200 bucks to spend for them when, as sirsloop points out, I could spend the money on proven cameras that take really great pictures (but unfortunately don't have those particular features).
My guess is, if I wait a year, Nikon and Canon will have those features too on $1200 cameras, and the Panasonic L10 will be $700 bucks.
While I did make the point Panasonic is mainly into other electronics, I also said they seem to have caught on to the digital camera thing--and have been wise enough to align themselves with a respected longtime optics manufacturer; this is the part that would really give reason to pause. Other than that, the rest is primarily electronics which they do have history in.
Yes, Canon makes more money in their copier and other industrial electronics business than in their photo business, but they have been in the photo business for decades and have built a lot of knowledge there. So that point is moot. BTW, same think with Nikon--they do a lot more than just cameras.
My main point of concern is the sensor performance. Again, as long as low-light, high-ISO shooting is not in the mix, it's probably ok. But if that is going to be part of the use of the camera, IMHO the big two are probably better choices. Did I say the Panasonic is bad? No--I can't say as I haven't used the gear. I do have concerns about the performance of the sensor based on its design; this is a place where bigger really is better & IMHO the 4/3 architecture is not the best of ideas.
Jay, I disagree that CA, distortion, noise, etc. are beyond your consideration. I think you would be well served to learn a bit about those characteristics and check into how the camera & lenses perform in those areas. This could avoid possible disappointment later. These are more important parameters to look at than megapixels--it's just easier to market pixel count.
http://www.chrislaudermilkphoto.com/
However, when it comes to DSLRs, think you should consider the fact that you are very possibly making a decision with FAR more far-reaching implications than may first be apparent. Specifically, if you buy this camera, you will very likely fall into what I call the "lens trap." You'll have one or two Lumix lenses to go with the L10, so the next time you need a new camera (because this one wears out, gets dropped in a pond by mistake, or whatever the reason), you'll feel "obligated" to stick with Lumix because you've already got perfectly good Lumix lenses. IOW, you're not just making a "one camera" decision; you may be making a life-time (or at least very long-term) commitment to Lumix DSLRs. That may not bother you right now, but if you decide to really get "into" photography (e.g., nature photography) a few years from now, you're going to feel really constrained by the limited lens selection to which you have access. IOW, you'll feel "stuck" (to what Lumix offers)...
With that in mind, I would suggest that you seriously consider either Canon or Nikon -- not necessarily because their current DSLRs are that much better than the L10 (although I think they probably are in some respects), but because your long-term purchase path will be vastly more flexible.
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Don't want to get in a battle here. Just consider:
http://www.four-thirds.org/en/products/lense.html
Those are lenses that will work with the panny - and there are 6 more that have been announced. Seems like plenty of options for the future to me.
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Do any of those work on the Panasonic DMC-L10 in Live View mode?
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Hmmm... That's a good question. I guess my first reaction would be "why not" but I don't know enough about it. I guess I assumed so because they work with the live view on the Olympus cameras (E-330, E-410, E510) and I think Panasonic and Olympus developed the technology together. But I guess I don't really know. Knowing that would certainly influence my thinking.
Does anyone else know for sure either way?
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http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/lumix/l10/live_view01.html
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http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/lumix/l10/pdf/l10_system_chart.pdf
It would seem to suggest the other lenses work with it. But it doesn't say for sure.
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... and on the second page I found:
http://panasonic.co.jp/pavc/global/lumix/l10/live_view02.html#pagetop
"*The Contrast AF is supported with the use of LEICA D VARIO-ELMAR 14-50mm / F3.8-5.6 ASPH./ MEGA O.I.S. and LEICA D VARIO-ELMAR 14-150mm / F3.5-5.6 ASPH./ MEGA O.I.S. as of August 30, 2007."
For the original poster, this means that in Live View mode, Panasonic is saying you are limited to these two lenses if you wish to autofocus. Hopefully, there will be more to come.
I presume that means that in normal mode, any of the four-thirds system lenses will work with autofocus.
It's still an advance in technology, just not maybe as significant as if all four-thirds lenses would work in both modes. I do wonder what it is that is different about these new lenses?
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That's an excellent question.
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Oh yeah, Olympus lenses I lust for:
ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 300mm F2.8
ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 90-250mm F2.8
ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 35-100mm F2.0
ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 14-35mm F2.0 SWD
ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 7-14mm F4.0
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It's difficult to find specific information on this camera, so hopefully these questions will be answered as time goes on. I have some experience with the Olympus E-510, so I'm looking for the differences between it and what I can read about the L10.
Panny mentions using "Full-time Live View feature to enable contrast AF", and full time might be the important part of that statement. The E-510 doesn't use contrast detection AF, which the L10 has in addition to the standard SLR phase detection AF, so this is an added feature that sets it apart from the E-410, E-510, and presumably the upcoming E-3 from Olympus.
The E-410 and E-510 can't do the 'half-press' pre-focus in LV mode. Instead, pressing the AEL/AFL button interrupts the LV feature while the mirror flips back down, focuses, and then flips the mirror out of the sensor's light path again. This brings the LCD image into focus, but isn't needed for taking the photo. If I don't mind composing on a blurry screen, I can just fully press the shutter button and the camera will focus on its active sensor point.
So, rather than losing the ability to do any auto-focus photography in Live View mode, I suspect that the contrast detection that's possible with the L10 allows the camera to avoid the clunky multi-flip AF, and possibly keep the LCD image in focus all of the time.
But auto focus is over-rated....
The only time that I use Live View on my E-510 is when I'm using a tripod. The L10 and E-510 both share the ability to magnify (nearly) any portion of the LV LCD image, which makes manual focusing very precise and easy. The contrast detection AF may make the L10's live view more useful, but I haven't been unhappy with its implementation on the E-510. I have briefly used the E-330, which used two separate sensors for its Live View to allow its AF system to work full time, but that had a number of other limitations as well.
Any 4/3 lens will work on any 4/3 body, but some features may not be cross-compatible. For example, the 14-50 lens that was introduced with the Panny L1 has an aperture ring that's not supported by Olympus bodies, and its built-in optical stabilizer only works in one of its two modes. Olympus lenses should all work flawlessly on Panasonic bodies, with the exception of contrast detection AF, which even some Panasonic lenses don't support. Sigma lenses in the 4/3 mount are still Sigma lenses, so I can't comment as I don't own any.
While I truly appreciate your entire set of observations, I found the above an excellent observation. I do wonder if the L10 has "focus confirmation" in live view mode, which would make it even more usable. Regardless, the ability to zoom in for precise focus is a very valid point lending towards usability.
Thanks,
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