I was looking at that one too...the reviews were not that favorable wrt the Sony and Canon camcorders.
Yeah, I researched this stuff for nearly a year in anticipation of my daughter being born. In my opinion, Sony or Canon is the way to go... nobody else has gotten close enough to really warrant serious consideration.
What I really wanted was a hard drive based Canon HV20, as most credible review sites seemed to indicate that was the gold standard in quality, but I absolutely refused to deal with tape.
I ended up buying the HG10 like Lee did. It has a few drawbacks over the HV20, most of which I don't care that much about (apparently 24p mode doesn't work particularly well on the HG10 for instance).
The Sony gets very highly reviewed as well, and has several hard drive based models. The high end one uses a dock to connect to your computer, which I wasn't excited about carrying around with me everywhere. In addition, the Canon consistently got significantly higher marks with their image stabilization. I am not a steady shot anyways, and that is compounded further when I am chasing kids around trying to keep them in frame.
As for editing, iMovie08 is brain-dead simple... which is great for pretty much everything I am doing. It even has some controls to mess with saturation I believe, which I haven't messed with yet... but I am interested in toying with to see if I can improve the quality of the colors.
I have been archiving original footage straight to s3, then doing my editing and plan to delete the scratch files from my disk. iMovie converts the AVCHD files into something like 10x their filesize to actually work with them. So it is a non-ideal way to actually archive the footage. What I do is create an archive of the exact hard drive filestructure when I offload the camera, and then I can just create a dmg of that and re-mount that as a fake camera and import from that easily enough. That way I can pull any archive off of s3, remount it and work with the files again.
I think I am going to end up buying a good microphone for my camera for situations where sound is important. None of these handheld cameras are particulary good with sound for obvious reasons. If you are shooting in a place with any sort of ambient noise, you are going to have troubles making out the conversation you are filming. I will post an update once I buy a microphone and test it out.
In addition, the Canon consistently got significantly higher marks with their image stabilization. I am not a steady shot anyways, and that is compounded further when I am chasing kids around trying to keep them in frame.
The IS on the HG10 is great and the autofocus is super-super-fast
I think I am going to end up buying a good microphone for my camera for situations where sound is important. None of these handheld cameras are particulary good with sound for obvious reasons. If you are shooting in a place with any sort of ambient noise, you are going to have troubles making out the conversation you are filming. I will post an update once I buy a microphone and test it out.
The sad truth is that any camera-mounted mic is going to have that problem.
I'm sure whatever you get will be an improvement over a built-in mic that's pointing at the ceiling and which picks-up mechanical noise from the camera itself.
But the new mic will still collect lots of ambient noise. To get truly clean audio of people speaking, you'll need (a) a boom mic with an audio operator or (b) a Lavaliere mic clipped onto the speaker or (c) a handheld stick mic held close to their faces.
Obviously none of the above are practical for home use. Which means settling for a certain amount of ambient noise.
Soundtrack Pro, bundled with FCP, or SoundSoap, an inexpensive stand alone app, both offer noise reduction. They can sample the background noise and remove it. It's not perfect, but it can help quite a bit.
However, I hate tape... It's just so slow to access and such a pain when there's a time code glitch. I'm determined to go hard disk.
I'm all with you on the pain and speed of the tape access... huge drawback in my mind. But if I were to buy a cam today, it would be an HDV based tape cam. (I've pretty much given up hope of an HDV format on flash memory media based cam.)
If the content of the tape is a digital stream, then I don't see any help with time code glitches that hard drives (or flash memory) can provide over tape. A glitch in the matrix is a glitch in the matrix... what media the stream is coming from really shouldn't matter.
Also, I love the idea of h.264. The potential of it boggles for viewing online and on small devices. I'm really interested in this camera or at least its potential.
When I did my research on HD cameras this past spring, I came to this conclusion: h.264 : jpeg :: HDV : raw
I'd happily convert something I shot in HDV to h.264/AVC for web distribution, but I'd never contemplate going the opposite direction.
SmugMug Sorcerer - Engineering Team Champion for Commerce, Finance, Security, and Data Support http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
I'm all with you on the pain and speed of the tape access... huge drawback in my mind. But if I were to buy a cam today, it would be an HDV based tape cam. (I've pretty much given up hope of an HDV format on flash memory media based cam.)
If the content of the tape is a digital stream, then I don't see any help with time code glitches that hard drives (or flash memory) can provide over tape. A glitch in the matrix is a glitch in the matrix... what media the stream is coming from really shouldn't matter.
When I did my research on HD cameras this past spring, I came to this conclusion: h.264 : jpeg :: HDV : raw
I'd happily convert something I shot in HDV to h.264/AVC for web distribution, but I'd never contemplate going the opposite direction.
The hard drive based machines which use a fixed HD are also fixed in record time, where a tape based camcorder can be extended with additional tapes.
My greater concern is image quality through the editing process. AVCHD uses an MPEG4 compression which requires long GOP sequences rather than the discrete frames of DV/HDV. This means that in order to edit frame accurately in AVCHD you need to first transform the GOP sequence into discrete frames and then transcode back when done. This can be a tremendous detriment to image quality, especially in complicated editing and overlays.
I suspect that action sequences and other video which has either a lot of detail or a lot of noise are going to be particularly problematic.
I was debating between the Rode Videomic and the Rode SVM. Its a tough call, because they are obviously ideal for different situations. The Videomic will do much better one on one directional. The SVM will handle situations with multiple people much better, but pick up more surrounding ambient noise.
Anyways, I have the SVM in my hands and am running some quick tests. When it gets light tomorrow I will run some more outdoor tests, but I recorded a quick test with the SVM vs. the on-board in the same situation. This is a big empty room that is essentially an echo chamber. It has a lot of ambient machine noise from our machine room. It is basically the worst room to film in at our office.
This is in the parking lot at the office, right next to the freeway. Lots of ambient traffic noise, but no wind.
The voice levels of both me (behind the camera) and Mark (in front of the camera) are roughly identical. The big difference in volume is all due to the microphones.
The support desk Heros have been asked several times what the best video camera is, what we prefer, or what we use.... I thought it might be better to get a larger sample of what people are using.
So my questions to you video dgrinners....
What video camera are you using?
What editing software?
Any good or bad points, or recommendations?
Feel free to include any sample video links to show what you are getting.
To start it off, I am using:
Canon XH-A1 w/Firestore FS-4 DTE drive for storage (no tapes for me)
Final Cut Pro
and Compressor to convert to h.264 before upload
I love the camera, video quality it great. Sound is very good from the stock mic. I have also have a Sennheiser wireless mic set up as well.
Here is a silly video that I did to capture my babies eating:
What Camera?
Well, I guess I'll ask the total n00b question to start things off. I'm interested
in getting a video camera.
I've looked at the Canon line. The smaller HV cameras are attractive because
of their size. Yet their more prosumer versions are attractive for the feature
set they offer.
Sony, Panasonic and JVC all have respectable models in each of the price
ranges.
Where does one start?
Moderator Journeys/Sports/Big Picture :: Need some help with dgrin?
Well, I guess I'll ask the total n00b question to start things off. I'm interested
in getting a video camera.
I've looked at the Canon line. The smaller HV cameras are attractive because
of their size. Yet their more prosumer versions are attractive for the feature
set they offer.
Sony, Panasonic and JVC all have respectable models in each of the price
ranges.
Compression is less with miniDV than with mpeg2 used in HDD recorders etc.
I bought Sony as the low-light performance is meant to be better - although I bought 4 years ago now - I'm very happy with the results.
I don't have HD, or a HD TV (actually I don't have ANY TV at all - just a projector and a mac powerbook)
One thing which may sound obvious but which made a WORLD of difference for me is to ensure that it's not one of those tall format ones - i.e. that you hold vertical in your hand as:
1. they're kind of awkward to use all the buttons without shaking
2. the microphone is often (well it was when i was looking) on the top - which means crap sound recording of your targe twhich is in _front_ of the camera
Another thing - a longer optical zoom is important - i don't bother using digital zoom as the quality is crap and camera shake is unavoidable even with steadycam option turned on
Keep in mind that experience with choosign the camcorder was 4yrs ago and I gues sthings have changed and that HD etc. is coming down in price now
I also bought my cam 3-4 years ago and I ended up purchasing a Panasonic (MiniDV) for a couple reasons: 3-CCD color and focusing speed. The Sony had better low light performance and steady-shot. Otherwise, features important to me were about the same.
I wish they'd come out with a camera that uses a hard disk, but still records uncompressed video. Maybe they have? I haven't been in the market for a while. With small hard disks getting bigger, it can't be too far away. My next cam will probably be Hi-Def., so I'm interested to hear about others' opinions there.
I wish they'd come out with a camera that uses a hard disk, but still records uncompressed video. Maybe they have? I haven't been in the market for a while. With small hard disks getting bigger, it can't be too far away. My next cam will probably be Hi-Def., so I'm interested to hear about others' opinions there.
They have, it is called the RED One - and only $17,500 for the body only.
In reality though, you can add HDD recording to any camera with a Firewire port by adding on a Focus Enhancements FireStore. They range in price from $500-$2000 or so, but a lot of videgraphers swear by them. Most can be used in tandem with tape too - giving you an instant onsite backup of your video.
... you can add HDD recording to any camera with a Firewire port by adding on a Focus Enhancements FireStore. ... Most can be used in tandem with tape too - giving you an instant onsite backup of your video.
They have, it is called the RED One - and only $17,500 for the body only.
In reality though, you can add HDD recording to any camera with a Firewire port by adding on a Focus Enhancements FireStore. They range in price from $500-$2000 or so, but a lot of videgraphers swear by them. Most can be used in tandem with tape too - giving you an instant onsite backup of your video.
Yeah, I think I saw an article about the RED One... too rich for my blood! I mostly take home/vacation movies.
The FireStore is interesting.... but really shouldn't be necessary. My raw AVI dumps for a 60min MiniDV tape are only about 13 Gig. So give me a 160 Gig laptop disk on a camera and I'm good to go. Or make it a Flash disk at 40 Gig and I'd be even happier.
The FireStore is interesting.... but really shouldn't be necessary.
It may not be necessary but it is a huge timesaver. I shot an event Monday and Tuesday night that was about 2 hours long each night and easily could have run over. There was no time for tape changes things were very fast paced. The Firestore FS-4 had 399 minutes of storage when I started. No tape that I can get for my camera could handle that.
When I got home, I hooked the FS-4 up to the MacPro and transfered it to my storage array directly. It did not have to be converted. When I get ready to edit this weekend, I simply import it into the project. That is a HUGE timesaver in my opinion. Is it for everyone? No. But it is a tool that I am very glad to have at my disposal. 2 hours of HD video would take a very long time to convert... time I do not have.
I wasn't questioning it's usefulness... just that technology has advanced to the point where it could be built into the camera itself. 160 Gig H.D. at 13 Gig/Hr is about 12 hours of video. Make that a removable eSATA disk and you make the FS-4 obsolete.
Given that such a beast does not exist, the FS-4 looks awesome... But I couldn't really justify it with the limited amount of video I do.
Chris, I understand . I was just trying to give an example of how it could be useful. I did not want someone to see "shouldn't be necessary" and pass it over. If you shoot short videos or infrequently, I agree. It is not for you. Unless you need the speed of transfer without conversion. But, for someone who shoots alot, either the FS-4 or one of the other DTE systems should be given a hard look. There are pro's and con's that must be considered.
Chris, I understand . I was just trying to give an example of how it could be useful. I did not want someone to see "shouldn't be necessary" and pass it over. If you shoot short videos or infrequently, I agree. It is not for you. Unless you need the speed of transfer without conversion. But, for someone who shoots alot, either the FS-4 or one of the other DTE systems should be given a hard look. There are pro's and con's that must be considered.
--Doc
It's actually cheaper (but not as convenient) to record direct to a laptop/external drive. Of course then you need more power and to keep the laptop safe and clean.
On-location reporters/film-makers (that i've talked to) with Canon XL2 or Panasonic DVX cameras love the usuablity of the FS-4 and others like it. In the field doing reporting or Doc work the less expensive laptop version wouldn't work, also tapes are a pain to use in the field because they fill up so fast and changing them can cause dust to enter the camera - etc.
Sony SR10 (HDR-SR-10)
Sometimes I hate the amount of information that is available for a product. I come here frequently in regards to almost anything Photogrpahy, but I had some money laying around, and thought I would spend it on some consumer grade Cinemetography stuff. So I purchased a Sony SR10. I did a ton of research, and would like to provide assistance in answering any questions people have in regards to this unit. I have one, and can tell you anything technically you would like to know.
(while my video is processed by Smugmug.... I thought I would post. I knew it would take a while longer compared to Pictures.... but I guess I didn't realize exactly how long it would take to compress it to L, M, S, etc. Definately quicker than if I did it myself though! )
Mine: Canon 20D, 50 f1.8 II, 28-105 II, 70-200 f2.8L, T 70-300 Macro, T 2X expander, 12-24 Sigma Hers: Sony SR10, (Soon Canon 5D MKII), 85 f1.8, 28-135 USM, Stroboframe, Manfrotto NeoTec Ours: Pair of 580 EX, Lensbaby, Studio Alien Bees, Son & TWO Daughters
Comments
Yeah, I researched this stuff for nearly a year in anticipation of my daughter being born. In my opinion, Sony or Canon is the way to go... nobody else has gotten close enough to really warrant serious consideration.
What I really wanted was a hard drive based Canon HV20, as most credible review sites seemed to indicate that was the gold standard in quality, but I absolutely refused to deal with tape.
I ended up buying the HG10 like Lee did. It has a few drawbacks over the HV20, most of which I don't care that much about (apparently 24p mode doesn't work particularly well on the HG10 for instance).
The Sony gets very highly reviewed as well, and has several hard drive based models. The high end one uses a dock to connect to your computer, which I wasn't excited about carrying around with me everywhere. In addition, the Canon consistently got significantly higher marks with their image stabilization. I am not a steady shot anyways, and that is compounded further when I am chasing kids around trying to keep them in frame.
As for editing, iMovie08 is brain-dead simple... which is great for pretty much everything I am doing. It even has some controls to mess with saturation I believe, which I haven't messed with yet... but I am interested in toying with to see if I can improve the quality of the colors.
I have been archiving original footage straight to s3, then doing my editing and plan to delete the scratch files from my disk. iMovie converts the AVCHD files into something like 10x their filesize to actually work with them. So it is a non-ideal way to actually archive the footage. What I do is create an archive of the exact hard drive filestructure when I offload the camera, and then I can just create a dmg of that and re-mount that as a fake camera and import from that easily enough. That way I can pull any archive off of s3, remount it and work with the files again.
I think I am going to end up buying a good microphone for my camera for situations where sound is important. None of these handheld cameras are particulary good with sound for obvious reasons. If you are shooting in a place with any sort of ambient noise, you are going to have troubles making out the conversation you are filming. I will post an update once I buy a microphone and test it out.
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The sad truth is that any camera-mounted mic is going to have that problem.
I'm sure whatever you get will be an improvement over a built-in mic that's pointing at the ceiling and which picks-up mechanical noise from the camera itself.
But the new mic will still collect lots of ambient noise. To get truly clean audio of people speaking, you'll need (a) a boom mic with an audio operator or (b) a Lavaliere mic clipped onto the speaker or (c) a handheld stick mic held close to their faces.
Obviously none of the above are practical for home use. Which means settling for a certain amount of ambient noise.
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam
http://www.mcneel.com/users/jb/foghorn/ill_shut_up.au
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
I'm all with you on the pain and speed of the tape access... huge drawback in my mind. But if I were to buy a cam today, it would be an HDV based tape cam. (I've pretty much given up hope of an HDV format on flash memory media based cam.)
If the content of the tape is a digital stream, then I don't see any help with time code glitches that hard drives (or flash memory) can provide over tape. A glitch in the matrix is a glitch in the matrix... what media the stream is coming from really shouldn't matter.
When I did my research on HD cameras this past spring, I came to this conclusion: h.264 : jpeg :: HDV : raw
I'd happily convert something I shot in HDV to h.264/AVC for web distribution, but I'd never contemplate going the opposite direction.
http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
Final Cut Express 4. Lots of new features, price drop to $199 from $299!
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
Final Cut Express 4. Lots of new features, price drop to $199 from $299!
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
my words, my "pro"pictures, my "fun" pictures, my videos.
The hard drive based machines which use a fixed HD are also fixed in record time, where a tape based camcorder can be extended with additional tapes.
My greater concern is image quality through the editing process. AVCHD uses an MPEG4 compression which requires long GOP sequences rather than the discrete frames of DV/HDV. This means that in order to edit frame accurately in AVCHD you need to first transform the GOP sequence into discrete frames and then transcode back when done. This can be a tremendous detriment to image quality, especially in complicated editing and overlays.
I suspect that action sequences and other video which has either a lot of detail or a lot of noise are going to be particularly problematic.
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
Anyways, I have the SVM in my hands and am running some quick tests. When it gets light tomorrow I will run some more outdoor tests, but I recorded a quick test with the SVM vs. the on-board in the same situation. This is a big empty room that is essentially an echo chamber. It has a lot of ambient machine noise from our machine room. It is basically the worst room to film in at our office.
The test is here:
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/3836059/
For those concerned with their macho image while filming, the mic only looks mostly silly.
http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/3836059#222063808
This is in the parking lot at the office, right next to the freeway. Lots of ambient traffic noise, but no wind.
The voice levels of both me (behind the camera) and Mark (in front of the camera) are roughly identical. The big difference in volume is all due to the microphones.
Oi. That mic is bigger than your *cam*. There's something just soo wrong and yet uber cool about that.....
http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
but for more serious video tasks may I recommend
Panasonic AG-DVX100B ?
XTi, G9, 16-35/2.8L, 100-300USM, 70-200/4L, 19-35, 580EX II, CP-E3, 500/8 ...
DSC-R1, HFL-F32X ... ; AG-DVX100B and stuff ... (I like this 10 years old signature :^)
So my questions to you video dgrinners....
What video camera are you using?
What editing software?
Any good or bad points, or recommendations?
Feel free to include any sample video links to show what you are getting.
To start it off, I am using:
Canon XH-A1 w/Firestore FS-4 DTE drive for storage (no tapes for me)
Final Cut Pro
and Compressor to convert to h.264 before upload
I love the camera, video quality it great. Sound is very good from the stock mic. I have also have a Sennheiser wireless mic set up as well.
Here is a silly video that I did to capture my babies eating:
http://docwalker.smugmug.com/gallery/3849097#222717166-A-LB
--Doc
http://help.smugmug.com
Well, I guess I'll ask the total n00b question to start things off. I'm interested
in getting a video camera.
I've looked at the Canon line. The smaller HV cameras are attractive because
of their size. Yet their more prosumer versions are attractive for the feature
set they offer.
Sony, Panasonic and JVC all have respectable models in each of the price
ranges.
Where does one start?
Perhaps a DoctorIT should pull that thread in from the wide angle now that we have a good home for it.
http://wall-art.smugmug.com/
Done.
Dgrin FAQ | Me | Workshops
www.camcorderinfo.com appears to have some decent info - just ignore the ads
Here is their page on why miniDV is still the choice of format:
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/d/Reviews&level_b=Camcorder&level_c=MiniDV.htm
Compression is less with miniDV than with mpeg2 used in HDD recorders etc.
I bought Sony as the low-light performance is meant to be better - although I bought 4 years ago now - I'm very happy with the results.
I don't have HD, or a HD TV (actually I don't have ANY TV
One thing which may sound obvious but which made a WORLD of difference for me is to ensure that it's not one of those tall format ones - i.e. that you hold vertical in your hand as:
1. they're kind of awkward to use all the buttons without shaking
2. the microphone is often (well it was when i was looking) on the top - which means crap sound recording of your targe twhich is in _front_ of the camera
Another thing - a longer optical zoom is important - i don't bother using digital zoom as the quality is crap and camera shake is unavoidable even with steadycam option turned on
Keep in mind that experience with choosign the camcorder was 4yrs ago and I gues sthings have changed and that HD etc. is coming down in price now
Good luck
Jase // www.stonesque.com
I wish they'd come out with a camera that uses a hard disk, but still records uncompressed video. Maybe they have? I haven't been in the market for a while. With small hard disks getting bigger, it can't be too far away. My next cam will probably be Hi-Def., so I'm interested to hear about others' opinions there.
They have, it is called the RED One - and only $17,500 for the body only.
In reality though, you can add HDD recording to any camera with a Firewire port by adding on a Focus Enhancements FireStore. They range in price from $500-$2000 or so, but a lot of videgraphers swear by them. Most can be used in tandem with tape too - giving you an instant onsite backup of your video.
Pretty neat stuff. Thanks for the tip!
Moderator of the Cameras and Accessories forums
The FireStore is interesting.... but really shouldn't be necessary. My raw AVI dumps for a 60min MiniDV tape are only about 13 Gig. So give me a 160 Gig laptop disk on a camera and I'm good to go. Or make it a Flash disk at 40 Gig and I'd be even happier.
It may not be necessary but it is a huge timesaver. I shot an event Monday and Tuesday night that was about 2 hours long each night and easily could have run over. There was no time for tape changes things were very fast paced. The Firestore FS-4 had 399 minutes of storage when I started. No tape that I can get for my camera could handle that.
When I got home, I hooked the FS-4 up to the MacPro and transfered it to my storage array directly. It did not have to be converted. When I get ready to edit this weekend, I simply import it into the project. That is a HUGE timesaver in my opinion. Is it for everyone? No. But it is a tool that I am very glad to have at my disposal. 2 hours of HD video would take a very long time to convert... time I do not have.
http://help.smugmug.com
Given that such a beast does not exist, the FS-4 looks awesome... But I couldn't really justify it with the limited amount of video I do.
--Doc
http://help.smugmug.com
It's actually cheaper (but not as convenient) to record direct to a laptop/external drive. Of course then you need more power and to keep the laptop safe and clean.
On-location reporters/film-makers (that i've talked to) with Canon XL2 or Panasonic DVX cameras love the usuablity of the FS-4 and others like it. In the field doing reporting or Doc work the less expensive laptop version wouldn't work, also tapes are a pain to use in the field because they fill up so fast and changing them can cause dust to enter the camera - etc.
Sometimes I hate the amount of information that is available for a product. I come here frequently in regards to almost anything Photogrpahy, but I had some money laying around, and thought I would spend it on some consumer grade Cinemetography stuff. So I purchased a Sony SR10. I did a ton of research, and would like to provide assistance in answering any questions people have in regards to this unit. I have one, and can tell you anything technically you would like to know.
(while my video is processed by Smugmug.... I thought I would post. I knew it would take a while longer compared to Pictures.... but I guess I didn't realize exactly how long it would take to compress it to L, M, S, etc. Definately quicker than if I did it myself though! )
Hers: Sony SR10, (Soon Canon 5D MKII), 85 f1.8, 28-135 USM, Stroboframe, Manfrotto NeoTec
Ours: Pair of 580 EX, Lensbaby, Studio Alien Bees, Son & TWO Daughters