What are you using to catalog your images?

Manticore

Just curious, because I'm having a hard time finding something I can 'stick' with.

Here are my needs ....

1 - NO XMPs !! Always seemed a bit clumsy to me. I prefer to have all my data in a database. Maybe the option to export to XMP if I ever need it, although I can't imagine why I would.

2 - Mentioned above, but database driven

3 - No importing. I don't like the way Lightroom and some other tools require importing. I want to have a way to see my folders as they are and then add keywords, etc. as needed. I want to see ALL the files in a directory even if the imaging software doesn't really offer a way to view them.

So ... what have I tried?

Lightroom - waaaay to clumsy, slow and requires importing. Too many workarounds required to do anything.

IDImager - I love this tool, but it seems like there's always some bug cropping up. It's getting a little tiresome to work with.

Thumbs Plus - Good idea, but long in the tooth and I doubt there will ever be a 'next' version. Too many things I'd like to see it do and no hope that it ever will!

What I guess I'm looking for is something like IDImager that is more reliable, or like Thumbs+ but with more 'modern' features.

I'm not interested in image editing capabilities - just browsing and cataloging. I do all my edits in Photoshop and I haven't found any other editor to come close to its capabilities.

Any suggestions??

Thanks, all!

jfriend

Manticore wrote:

Just curious, because I'm having a hard time finding something I can 'stick' with.

Here are my needs ....

1 - NO XMPs !! Always seemed a bit clumsy to me. I prefer to have all my data in a database. Maybe the option to export to XMP if I ever need it, although I can't imagine why I would.

2 - Mentioned above, but database driven

3 - No importing. I don't like the way Lightroom and some other tools require importing. I want to have a way to see my folders as they are and then add keywords, etc. as needed. I want to see ALL the files in a directory even if the imaging software doesn't really offer a way to view them.

Database driven (no XMPs), no importing and seeing the files/folders the way they are is pretty darn impractical. To have all your image metadata in a database, the software that is maintaining the database has to know about your images and has to have indexed them. In the software packages that you don't like that have importing, it is this importing step where you tell the software you'd like these images to now be indexed into your database.

So, if there is a central database, there ALWAYS has to be an import step where new images that you want to be part of the database get scanned and put into the database. And, because images are big and thumbnails usually need to be generated to speed the viewing process, this import step isn't super fast - it takes a bit of time, a bunch of disk activity and sometimes a bunch of CPU.

So, I'd suggest that you can't have a central database and no importing step. You will not find that. You could change your requests to focus on the aspects of the import step that you would like improved (faster, more automatic, better progress UI, etc...) or you could change your requirement for a central database and find solutions with less formal import (these are generally more like image browsers rather than image databases).

Richard

John is correct that there is no practical way to avoid importing. If you want the catalog to be database driven, the data need to get into the database somehow. In the absence of an explicit import step, the application would need to scan the disk repeatedly looking for new images, then do all the work that it does in a typical import as well. Which is even worse.

Regards,

Manticore

Obviously, I wasn't exactly clear! I understand the need to 'import' or do some kind of indexing. Thumbs+, ACDSee and IDImager (to name a few) do this when you 'land' on a folder, automatically. That's more of what I want. With Lightroom, for example, you can't see any images until you specifically do an import - that's what I don't want. Not to mention the fact that Lightroom's workflow is not compatible with mine and since I'm productive with the way I do things I'm not going to switch to what their designers feel is the the best way to do things!

I forgot to mention that I also tried ACDSee pro 2 and while it's really close to working for me there's still a serious bug with the latest release. Large-ish TIFF files are painfully slow to read, and since my RAW conversions always result in TIFFs (most fairly large), this is too serious a limitation. I reported this problem to their tech support and they acknowledged that they're having problems with reading TIFF files but had no ETA for a fix.

So ... what are you using?

Richard

Manticore wrote:

Obviously, I wasn't exactly clear! I understand the need to 'import' or do some kind of indexing. Thumbs+, ACDSee and IDImager (to name a few) do this when you 'land' on a folder, automatically. That's more of what I want. With Lightroom, for example, you can't see any images until you specifically do an import - that's what I don't want. Not to mention the fact that Lightroom's workflow is not compatible with mine and since I'm productive with the way I do things I'm not going to switch to what their designers feel is the the best way to do things!

I forgot to mention that I also tried ACDSee pro 2 and while it's really close to working for me there's still a serious bug with the latest release. Large-ish TIFF files are painfully slow to read, and since my RAW conversions always result in TIFFs (most fairly large), this is too serious a limitation. I reported this problem to their tech support and they acknowledged that they're having problems with reading TIFF files but had no ETA for a fix.

So ...

I feel your pain. The desire to have a catalog that fit my own workflow three years ago drove me to develop my own database, which has worked out well but (sadly) ties me to a Windows machine. So I am interested in hearing about commercial products that have developed since then.

A couple of questions about LR import: Once you have imported a folder, what happens if you add new files to it? Is it smart enough to only import the new ones while retaining the old data for the rest? What if you move an imported file to a new location? Is it smart enough to just update the location while retaining the rest? Does the move have to be done within LR itself?

Regards,

Manticore

I'll answers your questions as best I can, but others may be able to provide more insight ...

"Once you have imported a folder, what happens if you add new files to it?"

If you add files via Lightroom's utility then the files are added to the database. If you add outside of Lightroom you must do another import (see next answer)

"Is it smart enough to only import the new ones while retaining the old data for the rest? "

Yes, it will only import changed files.


"What if you move an imported file to a new location? Is it smart enough to just update the location while retaining the rest? Does the move have to be done within LR itself?"

You should do all moves in Lightroom, or you'll have to reimport again.

Rhuarc

FWIW, I use IDImager. For me the support provided by the developer is unheard of in the software business, personally really like the product and how it fits into my own workflow.

Just my 2 cents! Hope you find something works for you!

aktse

Have you looked at photo mechanics?

Manticore

I don't think Photo Mechanic has a database behind it, does it? I always thought it was mostly a browser?

claudermilk

Since you've mentioned at least two packages that are Winsows only, I am presuming you're not on Mac (this is a frequently-omitted, but critically important bit of information when asking about software).

AFAIK, you cannoy have it both ways regarding importing & a central database repository. If you want a central database, you have to do an import step to alert the app that the files need to be managed. It's just the nature of the beast. If there's no import, then it's just a browse app & must depend upon file-based information be it embedded EXIF/IPTC data blocks in the image files or XMP sidecars.

My preferred DAM is IMatch. While the UI looks a bit dated at the moment, the functionality is second to none, and a new version with an up-to-date UI is well into development. Yes, you have to do an import step, but one nice thing is you can set it to automatically monitor folders once imported so it can keep things updated on its own from there on (basically it's looking for a Windows system message indicating a file in the folder has changed). IMHO it's worlds better than the LR catalog module. You have several options for dealing with XMP & it always maintains an internal db of XMP data allowing acces to that useful info even when the files are offline. As with many shareware apps, the developer is personally on his support forum daily & there are several gurus there donating time & help as well.

Richard

claudermilk wrote:

My preferred DAM is IMatch. While the UI looks a bit dated at the moment, the functionality is second to none, and a new version with an up-to-date UI is well into development.

Hey Chris,

Thanks for pointing this out. It looks pretty similar to what I did but with greater functionality. And it has the huge advantage that somebody else is maintaining it. I am definitely going to check out the demo once I get my new machine. Do you happen to know whether it can import data from another database? My current system only keeps keywords in the database and I sure would like to avoid re-entering all of them.

Cheers,

Manticore

I downloaded this an hour or so ago, and I'm pretty impressed. The interface is a little old-fashioned, but I'm liking the functionality so far.

Thanks for the tip!

Richard

rsinmadrid wrote:

Do you happen to know whether it can import data from another database? My current system only keeps keywords in the database and I sure would like to avoid re-entering all of them.

Cheers,

Talking to myself here, but maybe someone else is interested as well. I looked at the detailed product info on the Web. It has built-in import support for a number of other products plus good scripting support (VBA based) for the Windows world. This solves my problem.

This looks like a great application. I only wish I had heard of it three years ago.

claudermilk

Haven't you been listening to my fanboy postings all this time? D

I tried a bunch of DAMs before settling on IMatch & it took me two tries with it before I saw the light. It really is extremely capable, and stable; this is one of Mario's driving goals, which is why it sometimes lags with the latest bells & whistles. As I said the new version is in the works & it's supposed to have a nice, up-to-date interface. Mario listens to his customer base as well as SM does theirs. The hints he's dribbled out has got me salivating.

It currently uses WinWrap Basic, which is a VB6 clone. Everything I've tried using my VB6 knowledge has worked. This give a nearly unlimited expandability to the app. Check out the Wiki page (here), and see the mind-boggling array of scripts available. I use several that are now indispensable.

One of the things that attracted me to the app is it's opennes with the data. There are a multitude of ways to import & export data (if all else fails, you have scripting). So far IIRC every source that's been thrown at the support forum has been successfully imported eventually. So, what are you using now, Richard?

Anyway, head over to the photools site with any other questions--while I'm one of the biggest loudmouths there, there are several others with a ton of knowledge & happy to share it.

Rhuarc

claudermilk wrote:

Haven't you been listening to my fanboy postings all this time? D

I tried a bunch of DAMs before settling on IMatch & it took me two tries with it before I saw the light. It really is extremely capable, and stable; this is one of Mario's driving goals, which is why it sometimes lags with the latest bells & whistles. As I said the new version is in the works & it's supposed to have a nice, up-to-date interface. Mario listens to his customer base as well as SM does theirs. The hints he's dribbled out has got me salivating.

It currently uses WinWrap Basic, which is a VB6 clone. Everything I've tried using my VB6 knowledge has worked. This give a nearly unlimited expandability to the app. Check out the Wiki page (here), and see the mind-boggling array of scripts available. I use several that are now indispensable.

One of the things that attracted me to the app is it's opennes with the data. There are a multitude of ways to import & export data (if all else fails, you have scripting). So far IIRC every source that's been thrown at the support forum has been successfully imported eventually. So, what are you using now, Richard?

Anyway, head over to the photools site with any other questions--while I'm one of the biggest loudmouths there, there are several others with a ton of knowledge & happy to share it.

This is pretty much exactly what I have to say about IDImager! LoL... Amazing how different individuals gravitate towards different products isn't it? Anyway, let us know what you end up going with!

CatOne

You've largely painted yourself into a box.

I think the closest you can come to that is Adobe Bridge. There are probably a couple ways to go "database-driven" and avoid XMP files:

1) Use a centralized Camera RAW database and not XMP files -- this was an option in Bridge 1.x and I'd assume it's still an option with Bridge 2.x

2) Convert your files to DMG files and then it will store the data in the new RAW files.

Still... frankly I think Bridge stinks and I would use Lightroom for this. Or Aperture.

Manticore

Well, I think I'm between IDImager and IMatch. It's purely subjective, I guess, but although I think IDImager is fantastic IMatch just 'feels' more stable. Guess I'll keep playing around with them for a few weeks. I know the newest release of IDImager is supposed to come out around mid November and if the stability and 'buggy-ness' have been addressed then I'll probably stick with it. If not, then IMatch will probably be the winner.

As for Bridge ... yuck!! I think it's even worse than Lightroom - and I REALLY dislike Lightroom!

Anyway - thanks for all the input, everyone, and I welcome other opinions too!

Richard

claudermilk wrote:

So, what are you using now, Richard?

I built my own using Access for the DB and GUI, VBA for the application logic and a smattering of piped-together share/freeware utilities for dealing with the image files. It's a kludge under the hood, but it has held up surprisingly well for three years and, of course, it was designed specifically for my own work flow. Sounds like it should be relatively painless to move the data. IMatch does a whole lot more than my app, but I really only need something to keep track of online and off-line file locations, search on any arbitrary set of criteria returning thumbnails, and absolutely minimize the number of keystrokes needed to enter data. Once I get a new machine up and running, I'm definitely going to check it out.

Oh yeah, and I definitely listen to your opinions Chris. I hadn't discovered Dgrin yet when I built the app.

claudermilk

IMatch will definitely import from Access mdb files, that's been done several times. I would strongly suggest getting away from an Access-based DAM. Access has a hard 2GB file size limit and it's ugly when you hit it. BTDT. That's one thing that turned me off IDImager, it's based on Access--though the Pro version is now full SQL Server. Another IMatch plug, it's got a custom no-limit architecture & Mario says he's tested on databases in excess of 500k files. I know my 115k db is a smaller one compared to some users.

Rhuarc

claudermilk wrote:

IMatch will definitely import from Access mdb files, that's been done several times. I would strongly suggest getting away from an Access-based DAM. Access has a hard 2GB file size limit and it's ugly when you hit it. BTDT. That's one thing that turned me off IDImager, it's based on Access--though the Pro version is now full SQL Server. Another IMatch plug, it's got a custom no-limit architecture & Mario says he's tested on databases in excess of 500k files. I know my 115k db is a smaller one compared to some users.

Actually just to clarify this, IDImager v4 is going to be released sometime probably this month. It shifts things over completely to SQL Server, even the Personal edition. There are three flavors you can get now.

IDImager Pro - SQLite (don't have to have SQL Server installed)
IDImager Pro - SQL Server (have to ahve it installed, but good for network isntallations)
IDImager Personal - SQLite

Also, just a plug for IDI, if you are looking for a DAM right now, don't base a decision on IDImager off of the older version. Check out the new one that is available to try out. There have been a ton of improvements made! (and I don't work for them and was not paid for this in anyway! LoL, I just really like the product!)

seastack

Well i don't think anyone has mentioned Aperture so I thought I would. If you're windows only then this isn't an option.

I have not used lightroom so i can't compare but a new feature in the latest version of Aperture is the ability to manage external files that are not imported into the database ... i have not used this so you would need to double check how this feature works for yourself on apple's site.

For me, Aperture has been a godsend. I absolutely love it, and still use Photoshop extensively. Pretty easy, open file in aperture with external photo editor that you choose (photoshop in my case), edit in PS, close, and your edited file shows up in aperture as a new version grouped with your original. If you set aperture to open files in PSD format, all adjustment layers are saved in the photoshop file stored within aperture. My original RAW file is NEVER touched and will always remain for me to revisit if i choose.

Ease of use is key for me and having all my 30,000+ files and versions neatly organized and easily searchable by keyword, date, rating, etc has become completely indispensible.

wildviper

Believe it or not, but I have been searching for a good DAM for over a year now. I have not made up my mind. It is very confusing.

I am a firm believer in having technology do what I want it too and not the other way around. All these programs have one or more issues for me.

The ones I have come across aside from IDImager and IMatch are: ACDSee Pro 2, IView Media Pro(Expressions Media now), Fotostation, Extensis Portfolio, Picajet FX, and Lightroom(though it shouldn't really be in this category).

Claudermilk, quick question for you on Imatch...how does it handle the network part? I would like to have all my images on one drive and be able to access it via any other computer in the house.

Giphsub

These programs are windows right? Other than Aperture, what are mac users using?

Maldon

try Portfolio
I went through a lot of agony to find a solution to storage and retieval.. Finally found one talking to a pro nature photog at Seal River, in northern Manitoba. He suggested Portfolio. I am not an addict. I have a master folder called "allphotos", which has sub folders hanging off it. It is convenient for me to use countries, so my bear photos are in the Canada folder, but they were downloaded into a new folder below that called "Seal River". (I should point out that this folder contains other photos than just bears).Then I ask Portfolio to synchronise. It goes and finds these pix and updates . Does that make sense?
Scondly, you can have an infinite number of keywords so in the example, I have the keywords "Canada" and "Seal River" and "polar bears". Other folders too might have the same "polar bears" keyword, so I can find all my polar bear photos (no matter wher I took them, or when) by searching for that keyword. You can have galleries, too, called Polar Bears, to avoid the keyword search every time. Portfolio is just magic. Each catalog can have upwards of a quarter mil pix. I am at 20 thousand and climbing. Portfolio is just the best. Better than Photo Mechanic and streets ahead of lightroom, IMO.
Give 'em hell.

claudermilk

Rhuarc, that's good to hear. A very good move on their part, IMHO.

Wildviper, IMatch handles network drives fine. There are several users on the photools support forum who are on network drives or NAS. The limit is obviously network speed. If it's slow, IMatch performance suffers.

The reason we aren't talking about Aperture in particular and other Mac software in general is the OP & others were asking about DAM apps for Windows. Though we seem to have lost Manticore a few days ago.

Manticore

Still here!! Still playing around with IMatch, although I think IDImager will have a new release in a week or so. I already have a lot of time invested in IDImager, so I'm thinking I'll stick with it.

Rhuarc

Manticore wrote:

Still here!! Still playing around with IMatch, although I think IDImager will have a new release in a week or so. I already have a lot of time invested in IDImager, so I'm thinking I'll stick with it.

I'll be interested to hear what you think. I have been using the beta for several months now and I am impressed with it.

Giphsub

claudermilk wrote:

The reason we aren't talking about Aperture in particular and other Mac software in general is the OP & others were asking about DAM apps for Windows. Though we seem to have lost Manticore a few days ago.

Ah, gotcha!

wildviper

Rhuarc wrote:

I'll be interested to hear what you think. I have been using the beta for several months now and I am impressed with it.

New version for IDImager? Is there a drastic change or what? Also, how does IDImager handle network files??

I am going to download Imatch and IDImager again. I really need to setup something quick.

Btw, I am trying out Picassa from Google and that thing is faaaaaast! It isn't as full featured, but it sure is fast in searching.

Rhuarc

wildviper wrote:

New version for IDImager? Is there a drastic change or what? Also, how does IDImager handle network files??

I am going to download Imatch and IDImager again. I really need to setup something quick.

Btw, I am trying out Picassa from Google and that thing is faaaaaast! It isn't as full featured, but it sure is fast in searching.

v4 will be released in the next week or so. As far as network files, I know it can do them, but you would be better off asking in the IDI forums, as there are people there who have done it and could better answer. The program is MUCH more responsive, less buggy, and as a whole is just plain much better.