Why you shouldn't be underpaid (or work for free)

Manfr3d

I just spottet this short video of Harlan Ellison
on sportsshooter.com. He talks about why its
so hard for professionals to get paid for their
work in the media industry. What he says
applies to photographers too. If you've ever
given away your work for free or wondered
why you are not getting paid enough .. just
watch it. He really nails it

http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/2007/11/must-watch-do-you-see-yourself.html

Icebear

To a certain extent
I agree with what he said. Just remember that money is not the only way to get paid. Value for value is what I want. I usually find that if the idea for an "in kind" deal is MINE, it's a good one. If it comes from the other party it's BS.

Manfr3d

Icebear wrote:

I agree with what he said. Just remember that money is not the only way to get paid. Value for value is what I want. I usually find that if the idea for an "in kind" deal is MINE, it's a good one. If it comes from the other party it's BS.

What do you mean by other value? Would you
do a job for free just for the recognition you'd get?

Icebear

No.
But I'd trade my time for the opportunity to shoot a great model so I could have the images in my portfolio. I've also, in the past when I was just trying for some credibility in marketing my architectural photography business, given some VERY good deals to (very select) influential designers so I could use their names in my marketing. They now gladly pay my regular rate. Some of them have actually sent other business to me, so it paid off. I considered it an investment.

Like I said, these deals were MY idea. Had someone come to me with "shoot my project 'cause i'm so wonderful and you can use the exposure" I'd have demurred politely. Certainly more politely than the fellow in the video. But maybe he's better at what he does than I am:D .

entropysedge

That video is a mild Harlan Ellison ...




got to agree with him tho'

Manfr3d

Icebear wrote:

But I'd trade my time for the opportunity to shoot a great model so I could have the images in my portfolio. I've also, in the past when I was just trying for some credibility in marketing my architectural photography business, given some VERY good deals to (very select) influential designers so I could use their names in my marketing. They now gladly pay my regular rate. Some of them have actually sent other business to me, so it paid off. I considered it an investment.

Like I said, these deals were MY idea. Had someone come to me with "shoot my project 'cause i'm so wonderful and you can use the exposure" I'd have demurred politely. Certainly more politely than the fellow in the video. But maybe he's better at what he does than I am:D .

I think I can understand your point. I wasn't so lucky in the past and did
a few small assignments for friends of friends. None of these jobs were my
own idea though. A couple of months later these ppl came back to me
and asked for the same favor. Of course they wanted it for practically
nothing like the first time. They commented me on the images but when
they saw that they couldn't get this dummy for free again they quickly
lost interest. We have a college party website for which I shot music
and party events and practically all our photographers experienced the
same thing at some point. Its really apparent that the clients have
grown used to the exchange beer for picture practice in my town. And
of course they believe that they can expect to get everything burned
on cds in hires and shipped to them 4 free. Sometimes they dont even
ask if they can use the images on our website, and asking for credit
makes them think we're takling chineese to them. It's hard to decide if
I want to keep shooting this stuff 4 fun and continue giving them the
ethics (means being an a*hole in their eyes, getting less access etc.)
or just quit it and turn to some other area of photography where I
compete with less "cool-they-used-my-picture" photographers. As
of now I am thinking about Outdoor Makrophotography btw.

claudermilk

Saw that video and it's both a great rant & very timely.


I'm in the transition point with a couple of my photo 'markets." I've now become a known name as one of the better photogs and am now working towards setting up a fee schedule that everyone can live with. It's not easy.

AnthonyS

claudermilk wrote:

Saw that video and it's both a great rant & very timely.


I'm in the transition point with a couple of my photo 'markets." I've now become a known name as one of the better photogs and am now working towards setting up a fee schedule that everyone can live with. It's not easy.

Im just getting into this, so I guess you could call me "one of the amatuers screwing things up". hahahha!
How do you get to a point where you can start charging a fee for your services?
I have done a few gigs for people in my church. But everytime I turn around some one is wanting me to do one for free. Again! ARG!

claudermilk

Get good, learn what your rates ought to be (read here a lot, check the professional association sites, grab the demo of FotoQuote & PhotoByte), learn to say "no"<--that's one of the hardest ones. That's a start...

Blackopps

Newbee Photog
I'm kind of new at the "Professional" photography thing as well. But I do understand Icebears point.

I was shooting a concert for a non-profit entity.."yes for free"...but a NY Publishing company spotted my work and wanted to buy the rights to use one of my photos in their publication.

So in that case shooting for free does work out. But my main question is...how do you know how much to charge for something like that? A major publishing firm wanting to use your work...how much do you charge for that? I searched and searched and couldn't find any solid resources...any ideas?

Manfr3d

Blackopps wrote:

I'm kind of new at the "Professional" photography thing as well. But I do understand Icebears point.

I was shooting a concert for a non-profit entity.."yes for free"...but a NY Publishing company spotted my work and wanted to buy the rights to use one of my photos in their publication.

So in that case shooting for free does work out. But my main question is...how do you know how much to charge for something like that? A major publishing firm wanting to use your work...how much do you charge for that? I searched and searched and couldn't find any solid resources...any ideas?

Working for a non-profit institution is a whole different thing and I dont
see a problem in working for them for free. The problem lies with the
anateurs who do normaly paid jobs nearly for free. Because
"clients" become very used to getting everything for free and thats when
fulltime photographers start to have a problem. Another way of seeing
it is "am I only worth this kind of little money?" We amateurs often dont
think about the hidden expenses we have when we do a job for free. Think
insurance, gear wear, gas, food .. not to mention working hours.

Hindsight

AnthonyS wrote:

Im just getting into this, so I guess you could call me "one of the amatuers screwing things up". hahahha!
How do you get to a point where you can start charging a fee for your services?
I have done a few gigs for people in my church. But everytime I turn around some one is wanting me to do one for free. Again! ARG!

And you know what? They'll keep taking your work for free, gladly.

You get to the point when you can start charging the moment you start charging. If you don't feel your work is worth whatever you're contemplating charging you need to seriously stop and re-evaluate your aspirations. Fear that you aren't good enough will kill ya. Fear of judgement, of having a customer say to your face, "what? your stuff sucks for that price," and hell it may. If you can't tell what's good from what's bad your work probably does suffer and you're not ready to go pro. Another topic.. such a wide range of subjectivity- but that's the heart of the dilemna of charging in the first place. Ever hear the term starving artist? They starve because either: their work is too personal and precious to put dollar signs on, they're too ashamed of it to charge, or they charge too much. So ask yourself what you're doing and where you're going. I speak to all the amateurs.

If your work is worth using for free its worth paying for. If its just barely passing for useable you may need to hone your craft, but don't work for free. People know the anxiety newbs face when charging and will take full advantage without hesitation. It's a huge hump to get over and requires a lot of honesty and heart/gut wrenching, but if you're going to go pro you have to put on your best poker face and act like one, fail or not. When people gasp at your prices you bid them a good day, remain stoic and move on. Adjust your strategy behind closed doors, not in the field. Set your price, state it, and then close the deal or don't. It's fine to say I'm just starting out and trying to get established so my fee is just x, but if x is undervaluing your product you're hurting yourself and everyone else in the field. It's a stuggle just like anything worth doing, a process. But nothing stinks of amateur like wavering on pricing. Pro freelance photography is way more than being a good shooter. You've got to be a good shooter and a great person to do business with... and later, with experience, a great shooter and a great business person. It may take 5 years. Don't quit the day job in other words. I haven't, lol. This is just the voice in my head. I could be all wrong.

dogwood

Manfr3d wrote:

Working for a non-profit institution is a whole different thing and I dont
see a problem in working for them for free.

I totally disagree with this. There are MANY different levels of non-profits-- some of them bring in hundreds of million dollars a year and have HUGE marketing budgets. Here's a great blog post on this:

http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/2007/11/non-profit-challenge.html

Locally, I can think of two "non-profits" that employee well over a hundred employees each and have operating budgets in the hundreds of millions EACH year. They both run extensive advertising campaigns (billboards, ads on the city buses, magazine ads, etc) and out-source their marketing efforts to well-known (and expensive) PR agencies.

In other words, do your research before you agree to do anything for free. Not all non-profits are equal when it comes to operating budgets and many of them can easily afford to pay photographers.

P.S. for over seven years now, my day job has been with one of those non-profits I mention above so my knowledge isn't just pulled out of thin air.

Manfr3d

dogwood wrote:

I totally disagree with this. There are MANY different levels of non-profits-- some of them bring in hundreds of million dollars a year and have HUGE marketing budgets. Here's a great blog post on this:

http://photobusinessforum.blogspot.com/2007/11/non-profit-challenge.html

Locally, I can think of two "non-profits" that employee well over a hundred employees each and have operating budgets in the hundreds of millions EACH year. They both run extensive advertising campaigns (billboards, ads on the city buses, magazine ads, etc) and out-source their marketing efforts to well-known (and expensive) PR agencies.

In other words, do your research before you agree to do anything for free. Not all non-profits are equal when it comes to operating budgets and many of them can easily afford to pay photographers.

P.S. for over seven years now, my day job has been with one of those non-profits I mention above so my knowledge isn't just pulled out of thin air.

You are right the legal term non profit wasnt what I was thinking
of when I said non profit. I was thinking of volultary community
services organized by local people and not by a company that has
the ammount x of budget.

Awais Yaqub

Few days back i recived a call & email from Oil company
they were interested in free lunch i said sorry

fotophun

good question...
but what about some of your work being published on the internet??