Customers without Internet access?

jswoolf01 · November 26, 2007

Apologies if this has already been covered somewhere, but several searches didn't seem to find anything.

I'm starting a personal photography business, and I have bumped hard into a problem I'm not sure how to handle. I got a Smugmug pro account because that way you kind folks handle the whole back end of the business, and I don't have to worry about time spent sending out contact sheets, taking orders, filling orders, mailing orders ...

Problem is, using Smugmug as my business back end requires Internet access. More than that, it requires high-speed Internet access -- even the gallery pages are just too big to try to run over dial-up. But some of my potential customers are limited to dial-up, while others have no Internet access at all. Some don't even have computers!

What do I do about this? What's the best way to get my pictures into the hands of customers who haven't got the needed Net access? Is there some kind of "Smugmug Offline" front end that I can load onto my laptop and carry with me, something that lets people enter orders and then upload those orders in one burst when I have Net access again?

-- Jon W.

denisegoldberg · November 26, 2007

This doesn't address the ordering problem, but I've used AlbumFetcher to pull albums back to my laptop. That allows me to bring my computer with me and browse through the photos with someone who doesn't have Internet access.

AlbumFetcher is available at http://www.dgrin.com/showthread.php?t=47160.

--- Denise

Nikolai · November 26, 2007

It looks like you're trying to bite your own tail (pardon the pun).

If you have both a laptop and the pictures you took, what stops you from showing the images right from your laptop? There are tons of ways to do it pretty slideshow from Adobe Acrobat, Adobe Lightroom and whole gang of other presentation-oriented apps (PowerPoint, etc). If nothing else, any cheap or totally free photobrowser (Window Image Viewer, ACDsee, Bridge, IrfanView, etc) can do the trick, maybe with less bells and wistles.

Otherwise I don't see any alternative but printing a contact sheet.. Cheaper than a laptop... And of course, there are always public libraries and internet cafes...

My only other concern would be that if a "potential customer" cannot afford a cheap PC (e-machines go for $200-$300, decent entry-level PCs are in the $400-$500) and almost free internet access, what are the chances they would pay for custom photography? I mean pay enough to make it a valid business case for you to go through all this trouble ...

DavidTO · November 26, 2007

It's hard for us to understand sometimes, but not having a computer isn't always a financial concern, but merely a lack of interest.

Poseidon · November 26, 2007

Uh, How about you invite them over to your house to choose? Then they can order right from your computer.

Or if not from your house, take a laptop to a Starbucks, meet your clients, use the WiFi there, and they can order away!

I have had that happen a couple times, and it works just fine!

jswoolf01 · November 26, 2007

Nikolai,

Nikolai wrote:

If you have both a laptop and the pictures you took, what stops you from showing the images right from your laptop?

Nothing at all. And I've already done that once, using Canon ZoomBrowser as the display program. The problem isn't that they can't see the photos. The problem is that without an Internet connection, they can't order photos from Smugmug.

Nikolai wrote:

My only other concern would be that if a "potential customer" cannot afford a cheap PC (e-machines go for $200-$300, decent entry-level PCs are in the $400-$500) and almost free internet access, what are the chances they would pay for custom photography? I mean pay enough to make it a valid business case for you to go through all this trouble ...

I'm taking pictures of horses and horse-people. They'll pay for photos, all right.

However, horse-people tend to live on sizable farms and estates way out in moose country -- where high speed Internet access isn't available, because setting up the wires for it isn't profitable.

-- Jon W.

Nikolai · November 26, 2007

jswoolf01 wrote:

Nikolai,
Nothing at all. And I've already done that once, using Canon ZoomBrowser as the display program. The problem isn't that they can't see the photos. The problem is that without an Internet connection, they can't order photos from Smugmug.

I see. So, you meet, you show them the pictures, they tell you what they want, pay you, and you order for them, delivering in person or simply specifying their address with your order. No?

jswoolf01 · November 27, 2007

Nikolai,

Nikolai wrote:

I see. So, you meet, you show them the pictures, they tell you what they want, pay you, and you order for them, delivering in person or simply specifying their address with your order. No?

That would certainly work. However, at best it involves driving by one or both of us -- perhaps a lot of driving, because some people will drive half a day or more to attend a particular show. It also means me spending my time to fill the orders, which is something I was hoping to avoid. I'll do it if I have to, but I'd like to find a more elegant way. I even thought about getting a wireless-access card for my laptop, the kind that uses a cellphone signal to provide faster-than-dialup Internet access. Then, at any given show, as long as I had a cell signal people could use my laptop to place orders for photos from previous events. But those services cost a fair amount of money.

-- Jon W.

Nikolai · November 27, 2007

jswoolf01 wrote:

Nikolai,

That would certainly work. However, at best it involves driving by one or both of us -- perhaps a lot of driving, because some people will drive half a day or more to attend a particular show. It also means me spending my time to fill the orders, which is something I was hoping to avoid. I'll do it if I have to, but I'd like to find a more elegant way. I even thought about getting a wireless-access card for my laptop, the kind that uses a cellphone signal to provide faster-than-dialup Internet access. Then, at any given show, as long as I had a cell signal people could use my laptop to place orders for photos from previous events. But those services cost a fair amount of money.

-- Jon W.

I see, essentially you need a portable "internet kiosk" (CDMA-based is a nice idea). However, I personally would be VERY cautions entering my CC data onto somebody else's laptop...

Oh well, good luck, I hope you'll find an acceptable solution...

z_28 · November 27, 2007

jswoolf01 wrote:

That would certainly work. However, at best it involves driving by one or both of us -- perhaps a lot of driving, because some people will drive half a day or more to attend a particular show. It also means me spending my time to fill the orders, which is something I was hoping to avoid. I'll do it if I have to, but I'd like to find a more elegant way. I even thought about getting a wireless-access card for my laptop, the kind that uses a cellphone signal to provide faster-than-dialup Internet access. Then, at any given show, as long as I had a cell signal people could use my laptop to place orders for photos from previous events. But those services cost a fair amount of money.

-- Jon W.

Looks as you are Back in the Past about 10 years only.
So make it exactly as everybody did it in pre modern internet era :
print 4x6 proofs and show pics to the customer.
Take order of big prints and send final job by Post.
Charge their CC or wait for check or MO in the mail if you wish.
Good Luck

ArchiTexas · November 27, 2007

z_28 wrote:

print 4x6 proofs and show pics to the customer.

Exactly. I still carry a portfolio of 8x10 images to client meetings.:D

Stella Bella · November 27, 2007

I would also "blast into the past" and do 4x6 proofs or larger. (I actually really like seeing proofs up front- I know there are costs involved, but perhaps I'm just old school.

jdryan3 · November 27, 2007

jswoolf01 wrote:

I even thought about getting a wireless-access card for my laptop, the kind that uses a cellphone signal to provide faster-than-dialup Internet access. Then, at any given show, as long as I had a cell signal people could use my laptop to place orders for photos from previous events. But those services cost a fair amount of money.

-- Jon W.

I realize that everything is relative, but Sprint's 3G EVDO service is all you can eat for $70/month. Coverage is decent and if 3G isn't available, it drops down to cell phone data speeds.

cabbey · November 28, 2007

theory vs real life

jdryan3 wrote:

Coverage is decent

Unless you're out in the middle of nowhere on a horse farm that's 50 miles by highway out of the nearest town, then take county road BF 15 miles off the highway to fourth marked Ranch Access Road on the left and drive another 3 miles.

and if 3G isn't available,

which is still fairly rare outside the big commercial markets.

it drops down to cell phone data speeds.

Which make smugmug painfully slow to use. (been there, done that... blue tooth from my palm TX to my cell, then out to the net from there... sure it looks beautiful, but when it takes minutes to load a gallery page, who cares?

bham · November 28, 2007

Nikolai wrote:

It looks like you're trying to bite your own tail (pardon the pun).

If you have both a laptop and the pictures you took, what stops you from showing the images right from your laptop? There are tons of ways to do it pretty slideshow from Adobe Acrobat, Adobe Lightroom and whole gang of other presentation-oriented apps (PowerPoint, etc). If nothing else, any cheap or totally free photobrowser (Window Image Viewer, ACDsee, Bridge, IrfanView, etc) can do the trick, maybe with less bells and wistles.

Otherwise I don't see any alternative but printing a contact sheet.. Cheaper than a laptop... And of course, there are always public libraries and internet cafes...

My only other concern would be that if a "potential customer" cannot afford a cheap PC (e-machines go for $200-$300, decent entry-level PCs are in the $400-$500) and almost free internet access, what are the chances they would pay for custom photography? I mean pay enough to make it a valid business case for you to go through all this trouble ...

A friend of mine's parents don't have a computer or internet access. But then again they own hundreds of acres, have a bunch of cattle and well basically rich, but don't act that way. They just aren't to computer savy and their daughter, a college grad, is barely computer literate. She recently learned copy and paste for her email. That was hard for me to believe that she went to the University of Alabama, got a degree and was basically computer illiterate. Its not like she graduated that long ago either, 2000. My point is, for me a computer is a necessity, for many it just isn't.

bham · November 28, 2007

jswoolf01 wrote:

Apologies if this has already been covered somewhere, but several searches didn't seem to find anything.

I'm starting a personal photography business, and I have bumped hard into a problem I'm not sure how to handle. I got a Smugmug pro account because that way you kind folks handle the whole back end of the business, and I don't have to worry about time spent sending out contact sheets, taking orders, filling orders, mailing orders ...

Problem is, using Smugmug as my business back end requires Internet access. More than that, it requires high-speed Internet access -- even the gallery pages are just too big to try to run over dial-up. But some of my potential customers are limited to dial-up, while others have no Internet access at all. Some don't even have computers!

What do I do about this? What's the best way to get my pictures into the hands of customers who haven't got the needed Net access? Is there some kind of "Smugmug Offline" front end that I can load onto my laptop and carry with me, something that lets people enter orders and then upload those orders in one burst when I have Net access again?

-- Jon W.

How are people contacting you to ask about photos? At the event or post event. If most are at the event, then a laptop and a card reader, and take a check/cash and order. If after, I guess meet up, or if they can give a description of any photos they may have some interest in (describe horse, person, #, etc) then maybe you can do proofs to send or show in person.

Yes eventually you take orders in ways not over the internet. I live in a major city and some people still want don't want to order via the net. But then again you aren't losing the 15% to smugmug. That is 15% you get, and with prints larger than 8x10 I get significantly more since I use other labs to fulfill those orders.

cdonovan · November 28, 2007

It's a huge dilema, I'm blessed that most of the people have either their own computer or has a friend with one.

I've travelled a little to accomodate the others that don't, it's been local travel so I just consider it a good way to make business contacts even stronger. If you have to travel any distance, you should be compensated, ask for a deposit which would then go toward the purchase of prints. A lot of people that have their galleries online do that as well. After they have been displayed for a certain lenght of time they are then taken down and the client is charged to see their photos by way of contact sheet or with a private flash gallery.

It's still your time that you have to take to follow up on these leads...you may find though that travelling to their place is absolutly worth every minute....also never travel without a camera to these places....strategically place it out of sight in your vehicule....you sometimes are able to secure an impromptu at home booking at the same time

claudermilk · November 28, 2007

A couple of sligthly OT thoughts:

1) I wouldn't wish an e-machine on my worst enemy. $200 is not worth the headache. BTDT.

2) For rural 'net access, there's Hughes.

I don't know much of anything about it other than it's satellite-based access & it exists.

jdryan3 · November 28, 2007

Theory vs real life vs replying to the comment

cabbey wrote:

Unless you're out in the middle of nowhere on a horse farm that's 50 miles by highway out of the nearest town, then take county road BF 15 miles off the highway to fourth marked Ranch Access Road on the left and drive another 3 miles.

which is still fairly rare outside the big commercial markets.

Which make smugmug painfully slow to use. (been there, done that... blue tooth from my palm TX to my cell, then out to the net from there... sure it looks beautiful, but when it takes minutes to load a gallery page, who cares?

yep, yep and yep. Agreed.

But my comment was related to the OP's statement he was going to look into one of those services for when he was at shows and there was a cell phone tower nearby. Nothing more. Please note that I included those comments in the reply, recommending a service if he went that direction. See below for a refresher ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jswoolf01
I even thought about getting a wireless-access card for my laptop, the kind that uses a cellphone signal to provide faster-than-dialup Internet access. Then, at any given show, as long as I had a cell signal people could use my laptop to place orders for photos from previous events. But those services cost a fair amount of money.

-- Jon W.

I realize that everything is relative, but Sprint's 3G EVDO service is all you can eat for $70/month. Coverage is decent and if 3G isn't available, it drops down to cell phone data speeds.

jswoolf01 · November 28, 2007

Nikolai wrote:

I see, essentially you need a portable "internet kiosk" (CDMA-based is a nice idea).

Well, that's what I want. But the sense I'm getting from this discussion is that there isn't such a thing around. So I'll have to find less elegant answers. A CDMA laptop card is one; an old-fashioned direct/snailmail interface is another. The showing season is basically over for the winter, so I have time to think it over...

Nikolai wrote:

However, I personally would be VERY cautions entering my CC data onto somebody else's laptop...

Oh, so would I. If I do take the "kiosk" approach, I'll have to find some guaranteed way to store that data so that even I never see the CC numbers. However, if I rely on a homegrown solution I'll probably turn to taking payments by check or money order; this is a startup business, and I won't be able to afford a direct link to the credit card companies anytime soon.

-- Jon W.

Nikolai · November 28, 2007

jswoolf01 wrote:

this is a startup business, and I won't be able to afford a direct link to the credit card companies anytime soon.

FWIW, both Paypal and Google Checkout would help you with CC with almost zero hassle, fee being negligible...

Phyxius · November 28, 2007

Jon,
Welcome to the wonderful world of equine photography.

You mention that you want your customers to get their orders from smugmug. Is this because you like smugmug's customer service, print quality, etc? If your customer does not have internet access or is not computer savvy you can do drop shipping, where you order from smugmug, but input their shipping information. They still get EZprints prints, smugmug customer service and you don't have to pay for shipping twice.

Now, how to show them the images they want and easily collect orders...

If you have someone who can help you at shows (because anyone who mentioned YOU showing the people images at the show has never tried to photograph an entire horse show on their own) you can set them up with the laptop and between classes, ring breaks, schooling breaks, etc. transfer the files from the cards onto the laptop. You could even supply an instant gratification incentive...Buy today and save 10% or something like that.

Contact sheets/proof sheets. There are programs that print these for you and if you have an HP computer or printer you even got this software for free! HP ImageZone has orderforms that print thumbnail sized images with bubbles (like scantron sheets) that the customer can darken to indicate size and quantity.

Proofs are generally 4x6 prints stamped with "PROOF" and contact information or hole punches. This can be costly if someone showed with multiple horses in multiple classes.

You can also offer all images of a particular horse/rider from a show date on a CD for a flat rate, with a personal use license so that the purchaser can print their own copies.

Best of luck,
Christina

jswoolf01 · November 29, 2007

Phyxius wrote:

Jon,
Welcome to the wonderful world of equine photography.

Thanks!:D It promises to be fun, if I can work out the bugs. Oh well, if this is the worst problem I encounter, I'm getting an easy ride.

Phyxius wrote:

You mention that you want your customers to get their orders from smugmug. Is this because you like smugmug's customer service, print quality, etc? If your customer does not have internet access or is not computer savvy you can do drop shipping, where you order from smugmug, but input their shipping information. They still get EZprints prints, smugmug customer service and you don't have to pay for shipping twice.

Mainly because ordering online seemed to offer maximum flexibility for them and for me: I don't have to worry about collecting money or making & mailing prints, and they have the convenience of being able to pick photos at leisure, pay by credit card, and get professionally-made prints shipped directly to them, fast. Also, I like the idea of them being able to order merchandise like mousepads, mugs, t-shirts, etc. I've lived with a computer and Internet access at my beck and call for so long that it literally never occurred to me there'd be customers without those things. Until one of them said so.

Phyxius wrote:

If you have someone who can help you at shows (because anyone who mentioned YOU showing the people images at the show has never tried to photograph an entire horse show on their own) you can set them up with the laptop and between classes, ring breaks, schooling breaks, etc. transfer the files from the cards onto the laptop. You could even supply an instant gratification incentive...Buy today and save 10% or something like that.

There's no way I can offer same-day ordering as long as I'm working alone, which I am at the moment. It just isn't possible. I might be able to set up my laptop to show images from previous shows, in fact I want to do that as long as I can guarantee its security (say, set it up at the announcer's booth or the show-secretary's table), but photos from the current show ? Not a chance.

-- Jon W.

cdonovan · November 29, 2007

Phyxius wrote:

Jon,
Welcome to the wonderful world of equine photography.

You mention that you want your customers to get their orders from smugmug. Is this because you like smugmug's customer service, print quality, etc? If your customer does not have internet access or is not computer savvy you can do drop shipping, where you order from smugmug, but input their shipping information. They still get EZprints prints, smugmug customer service and you don't have to pay for shipping twice.

Now, how to show them the images they want and easily collect orders...

If you have someone who can help you at shows (because anyone who mentioned YOU showing the people images at the show has never tried to photograph an entire horse show on their own) you can set them up with the laptop and between classes, ring breaks, schooling breaks, etc. transfer the files from the cards onto the laptop. You could even supply an instant gratification incentive...Buy today and save 10% or something like that.

Contact sheets/proof sheets. There are programs that print these for you and if you have an HP computer or printer you even got this software for free! HP ImageZone has orderforms that print thumbnail sized images with bubbles (like scantron sheets) that the customer can darken to indicate size and quantity.

Proofs are generally 4x6 prints stamped with "PROOF" and contact information or hole punches. This can be costly if someone showed with multiple horses in multiple classes.

You can also offer all images of a particular horse/rider from a show date on a CD for a flat rate, with a personal use license so that the purchaser can print their own copies.

Best of luck,
Christina

Can I ask you a question a little off topic Christina...when you offer the day of discount, are you doing prints at the show, or are you taking their order and money and going home to edit and then sending the photos? This is a spot where I ran into troubles this year, I was offering a day of discount that people were expecting to have their pictres in hand at the end of the show. I don't offer that...as you mentioned, there is not enough time in a day at a horse show to shoot and edit to sell...at least I have never found anyway!:cry

Customers without Internet access?

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